CDN-FIREARMS Digest 219 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) how many voters by Damian Kanarek 2) Another Quotation of Note by SHELDON CLARE 3) Hello, R.C.M.P. - anyone listening? by gdormody@calvin.stemnet.nf.ca (Garry B. Dormody) 4) Re: Threatened boycott of Canada by Skeeter Abell-Smith 5) Experts and experience by jcochran@pinc.com 6) Press Council by JTH 7) Press Council stuff by Jim Davies 8) bbl and bbls for barrel and barrels by Skeeter Abell-Smith 9) bill C68 and gardening by dmiller@bbs.sd68.nanaimo.bc.ca 10) No to Friends of Liberty by Pierre_Lemieux@UQAH.UQuebec.CA 11) Kitsilano news editorial by wevans@vcc.bc.ca 12) Don Boudria does not wish to get mail from non-constituents by "wayne (w.) salhany" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic No. 1 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 17:08:48 -0600 From: Damian Kanarek To: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Subject: how many voters Message-ID: <199504132308.RAA06372@regulus> How many people voted in the last federal election? Can we get that info? (I'm just curious to compare that against the number of gun owners who will be voting next time around). We'll have 2-3 years to get in touch with all of them... ;-) Damian P.s. There was an article in one of the recent papers which stated that given the very high popularity rating of the Liberals, it's possible that we'll have another 10-15 years of liberal rule like we had sometime in the past. That article also stated that the Reform won't be a threat this time around, but come the next (200?) elections, they might be a possibility - what do we think about that? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Damian R. Kanarek | "The .net interprets censorship as Multipath Business Systems Inc. | damage and routes around it." email: omen@multipath.com | - John Gilmore, EFF ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ Topic No. 2 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 17:09:52 -0600 From: SHELDON CLARE To: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Subject: Another Quotation of Note Message-ID: <199504132309.RAA06376@regulus> This is an interesting one that seems to have a lot of relevance. I hope that those government agencies who may or may not be monitoring this net would think of the Nuremburg Trials when they see this quotation: "Shoot first and inquire afterwards, and if you make mistakes, I will protect you." --Hermann Goering, "Instruction for the Prussian Police (1933) as cited in _Bartlett's Familiar Quotations_, 15th ed. Little, Brown, and Co., Toronto, 1980. Sheldon Clare "The principles of a free constitution are irrevocably lost, when the legislative power is nominated by the executive." --Edward Gibbon, in _Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire_ (1776-1788) Chapter 3. ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ Topic No. 3 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 21:07:32 -0600 From: gdormody@calvin.stemnet.nf.ca (Garry B. Dormody) To: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Subject: Hello, R.C.M.P. - anyone listening? Message-ID: <199504140307.VAA06422@izar> I accept the belief that the R.CM.P. had been commanded by our dictators to monitor the subversive activities (what we used to call freedom of speech) of the Internet and so I have written this for their, and our, benefit. AN OPEN LETTER TO THE R.C.M.P. I'm not what you might call a radical nationalist. I'm not even very political in nature, although that has changed a lot since Adolf Rockmeister (the "man" who would be king) came to power. There are, however, some things which, for me, evoke an image of what we call Canada. One of these is the R.C.M.P. What has this to do with the issue of gun control and C-68? I do believe that the average officer on the street is aware of what is happening here in view of C-68 and I do believe that given a free vote a majority of RCMP officers would tell the Rocky Horrible Picture Show exactly where C-68 will plunge this country. Bearing that in mind I have a question for the R.C.M.P.. Your motto says "Maintiens le droit" (Uphold the Right). What right is referred to in this motto? Is it the "right" of an ignorant politician to impose his will on a group for the simple reason that he CAN? Is it the right of the public to be protected from wrongdoing NO MATTER WHO IS DOING THE WRONG ? It seems that somewhere along the line we have lost sight of what this means. Given your resources and exposure to the current political climate in view of C-68 we know that you are well aware of which position is really "right" in this case. You should be doing everything in your power to uphold and protect the rights of the law abiding gun owners in this country. The RCMP exists because of a felt need many years ago to protect the law abiding public which is the backbone of our country. We, the concerned gun owners of Canada, are that public. It would be a shame after all these years to have to change your motto to "Maintiens les politiciens". If you allow it, you will have your strings pulled for your entire existence. I think that as a body you should take exception to the manipulation which you are now suffering at the hands of power hungry individuals who have found themselves in government. They will use that power to pull your strings and make you do the dirty work. No matter who gives the order all the headlines will begin with "The R.C.M.P...." I'm sure it's not easy to sit idly by while you have your strings pulled so if you do allow it to be done to you then let me make this request. If someone does pull your strings and decide for you that you have to kick in my door and slam my wife and me up against a wall so we can't escape while you tear my house apart looking for that evil, baby killing, bloodthirsty, 2 inch barrel, .22 "assault" pistol, could you do it after 8:30 P.M. You see, my litle girl should be asleep by then and hopefully she won't see or hear what is going on. I'd hate to have to try to explain to her after she calmed down that those nice people in the SWAT outfits with the machine guns were only here to Uphold mommy's and daddy's Rights. I'll have to take away the R.C.M.P. doll on the horse too, I guess. I don't let her watch the "Power Rangers" on T.V. so I couldn't very well allow such a symbol to stay in her room. Imagine her nightmares! If I sound bitter then you had best believe that it's simply because I have every reason to be. I am not a criminal and I WILL fight the illogical need of individuals like Allan Rock and Jean Chretien and Wendy "the" Cukier to show me as one. I urge all RCMP officers, and especially those in command, to speak out against this threat we call bill C-68 and to speak out against this threat which we call a government. I urge you to do your job. I urge you to remember your oath. I urge you to Uphold the Right. Garry Dormody My apologies to the members of the firearms group for using the word "urge" over and over but I can't help it. Allan Rock, Jean Chretien and C-68, for some reason, MAKE me urge. ;-) *************************************************************************** Allan Rock and his cronies have made me a firm believer in the bible. It's the part that says,"Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do." ;-) *************************************************************************** gdormody@calvin.stemnet.nf.ca or gdormody@nlnet.nf.ca c/o P.O. Box 51, Portugal Cove, NF, A0A 3K0 (709) 579-7191 (work) 895-1223 (fax) --------------- End Included Message --------------- ------------------------------ Topic No. 4 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 22:07:01 -0600 From: Skeeter Abell-Smith To: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Subject: Re: Threatened boycott of Canada Message-ID: <199504140407.WAA06478@izar> >From cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Mon Apr 10 20:49:59 1995 Originator: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca From: "K.R.Baylor" To: skeeter@skatter.usask.ca Subject: Threatened boycott of Canada X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Content-Length: 4000 X-Lines: 80 Status: RO This message was submitted by "K.R.Baylor" to list cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca. If you forward it back to the list, it will be distributed without the paragraphs above the dashed line. You may edit the Subject: line and the text of the message before forwarding it back. If you edit the messages you receive into a digest, you will need to remove these paragraphs and the dashed line before mailing the result to the list. Finally, if you need more information from the author of this message, you should be able to do so by simply replying to this note. --------------------- Message requiring your approval ---------------------- Sender: "K.R.Baylor" Subject: Threatened boycott of Canada CHICAGO TRIBUNE NRA WARNS CANADA OF BOYCOTT: GUN LOBBY VOWS ECONOMIC WARFARE IN FACE OF REGISTRATION Byline: Reuters. 04/09/95 [The American gun lobby is threatening to boycott Canada if the Canadian government pushes on with its new firearm law.] [The NRA, which has around 3.5 million members, and serveral hunters groups are warning politicians, including the Prime Minister, that Canada will suffer economic losses if it goes ahead with the reforms.] [The proposed legislations requires, among other things, registration of all firearms in Canada, no matter for how short a time.] "An overwhelming negative reaction can be anticipated and it could seriously erode revenue into Canada generated by visiting U.S. sportsmen and women," Tanya Metaksa, executive director of the NRA's lobbying arm, wrote to Chretien. The League of Kentucky Sportsmen said it asked its 75,000 members not to hunt or fish in Canada in 1995. "Should this legislation pass, we will continue our efforts to boycott all future hunting and fishing in Canada," wrote Executive Director Robert Smith. [Hunting and fishing vacations are some of Canada's most popular attractions. Representatives of the lobby say US hunters and fishers spend about $440 million ($314 million U.S.) each year.] [They are very angry about legislation that will require all guns to be registered. The new law will also ban most firearms not used for hunting or sport, as well as impose longer prison term for crimes in which firearms are used.] [Last week, the reforms were passed on to committee for review by a majority the House of Commons. After committee review, involving interviews with both sides of the gun control debate, the bill will have third reading and, if approved, go onto the Senate.] [Passage is said by many to be likely, but Canada's gun owners hope they can defeat the bill. US gun activists have been asked to write to Canadian politicians by members of the Sask. Wildlife Fed.] "We've had responses from the NRA, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Virginia and Texas and many more are coming," said Edward Begin, executive director of the Saskatchewan group. [US hunters represents only a small portion of the US$17.8 billion spent in total by tourists in Canada, critics are quick to point out.] [Critics also indicate that visitors to Canada are already required to register their guns with customs authorities when they enter.] (Coalition for Gun Control president Wendy Cukier predicts the new laws will actually boost tourism.) The U.S. boycott campaign "is a sign of desperation. They're trying to bring in the heavy hitters," she said. ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------ "If we can not trust a freeman with his right to keep and bear arms, then how can we trust him with the right to vote? Surely the right of a freeman to vote has a much greater effect on our collective lives than does any individual's firearm. If one argues that the effect of any one freeman's vote is minimal, then why allow it in the first place? To be armed is to secure one's right to representation." -- Thomas Mincher ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Topic No. 5 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 08:59:00 -0600 From: jcochran@pinc.com To: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Subject: Experts and experience Message-ID: <199504181459.IAA07906@regulus> Hi Folks: I'm relatively new to this list and only found reference to it while scrolling through a newswatcher group. Although I'm now freelance, my background is that of a photojournalist-picture editor with twenty years experience in the newsrooms of several of Canada's largest newspapers. The ignorance of my colleagues in respect to firearms has always been a point of frustration. I've argued with some editors and reporters until blue in the face about incorrect technical reporting, biased slants to stories and their general indifference to get the facts straight. A newspaper would not send a political reporter to a baseball game or a medical specialist on an entertainment job. However, almost anyone it seems is good enough to report on firearms related issues. The bottom line is that most people in the business do not care to educate themselves thoroughly with the technical aspects of firearms and the sporting groups that legitimately use them. Keep in mind that most journalists only have firearms experience from covering street crime or reporting gun-related accidents. In their world there's nothing newsworthy to be found at the local shooting range. Canada's shooters get little coverage unless they are someone like Mariam Bedard (sp?) and then the whole shooting thing can be watered down because skiing is of equal importance in her sport. Editors and journalists alike do understand freedom of the press issues and would be more likely to respond to the broad and sweeping erosion of individual rights in Bill C-68. The only informed journalists that can be relied upon for "objective" reporting are the outdoors columnists. Ernie Fedoruk wrote recently in our local Times-Colonist about his frustration when dealing with other unknowledgeable editorial types. He has really been a strong local voice against Bill C-68. Today I'm going to fax him about the Cdn-Firearms Digest in the hopes he will publish the address. It occurred to me that we should be campaigning all outdoors writers in this country and letting them know there is a Cdn-Firearms Digest on the internet. There must be lots of shooters out there who still read these columnists even if they've given up on the rest of the newspaper. Many of them may not know boo about computers and the Internet but I'll bet lots of them have shelled out big bucks so their kids can be on the Net. John Cochran Photography & Digital Imaging Victoria. B.C. jcochran@dataflux.bc.ca Politically correct people are like herding cattle. They follow the a___ole infront. ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ Topic No. 6 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 09:00:22 -0600 From: JTH To: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Subject: Press Council Message-ID: <199504181500.JAA07910@regulus> WRT my continuing battle to have my complaint against Stewart Bell heard. I recieved a phone call from the Exec. Secretary of the BC Press Council today (Mon. April 10). He said that he had read my fax (which was the last posting that I sent to the digest) and that he fully understood why I was still unsatisfied with the Vancouver Sun's response to my complaint. He then said that he had forwarded my complaint file to the "board" and that they would review it and inform me of their decision in about two weeks (of course their decision says whether the complaint will be adjudicated - not whether Mr. Bell will be censured for his activities). So in two or three weeks I should know whether it (my complaint) will be adjudicated by the Council. Two more hurdles to jump and then we'll know. WRT to Achim's comments; I would agree that many of the ombuds-like groups in Canada are nothing more than symbolism (if you happen to be fighting for a politically incorrect cause) but I would have to defend Mr. Porter's attempts so far (Mr. Porter is the Exec. Secretary for the BC Press Council). He has definitely made an effort to get this complaint process happening for me. (He even couriered the last letter to me so it would get to me overnight - $10 instead of a $0.43 stamp). I can honestly say that I feel I have not been ill-handled by Mr. Porter. So perhaps some of the groups are ok. Later Jason ******************************************************************** The researches of many commentators have already shed considerable darkness on this subject and it is probable that, if they continue, we shall soon know nothing about it. Mark Twain ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ Topic No. 7 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 09:02:13 -0600 From: Jim Davies To: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Subject: Press Council stuff Message-ID: <199504181502.JAA07921@regulus> > Regarding your complaint to the B.C. - you are > discovering in B.C., what I learned from the Alberta equivalent over a > decade ago. The Canadian Press Councils, like most (if not all) of our > democratic "checks and balances" are a sham - designed to divert and > dissipate the ire of the victims while maintaining a semblance of > fairness and forum for appeal... > > If you look carefully at the membership of these councils and the way > they are selected, I think you'll find that they are simply creatures > of the publications they pretend to police. > > Achim Hate to say it, but I think you are right on regarding the press council here. I have been mulling over contacting them re: a recent PC Twins column, because there "seems" to be some problem with getting a response from these fine journalistic enterprises. Did a little digging regarding the makeup of the council and I must say I am neither impressed nor hopeful. Of course, there is a great Canadian tradition of these types of groups burying things. Why cant we have our own group to police ourselves, like the doctors, lawyers, police, politicians, press etc.? > > On behalf of the Chair, the Hon. Warren Allmand, P.C., M.P., and the > Members of the Committee, I acknowledge receipt of your letter of > March 23, 1995, for which I thank you very much. In case anybody doesnt know, Hon. Warren is our worst nightmare. His anti-gun stance is long standing and extreme. His life experience is unblemished by anything real world. A pure liberal apparatchik. Kinda like getting marriage advice from a padre ;) > > The senate CAN quash the bill. Look at what they are doing to Bill C-22 > w.r.t the Pearson airport deal. If the senate majority doesn't like a > bill, they can... They can surely mess things up, if they want. Got my letter written, my senate maillist in order, just waiting the opportune moment. > > PPS: Rock was being interviewed by Don Newman on Capital Report > this evening. When asked if Rock would object to the committee > recommending tougher minimum sentances, Rock started to fret and > indicated that that the committee should be careful in tinkering > with the minimum sentancing provisions because that might be "too > expensive". Rock had no such qualms about the cost of the > registration system however, and our esteemed Justice minister will > be tabling his cost estimates for the registration system within the > next few weeks during the committee hearings. That ought to be good > for a laugh or two. Newman hit the rock at his soft center. The liberals are not going to change the administration of justice. It is their baby, they created it, and they like it the way it is. A little tinkering around the edges to placate the yokels is all. Save the hammer blows for the shooting community. Pure appeasement. > "Hunting is a barbaric, murderous activity. A total ban on > hunting and firearms would follow the lead of countries like > Britain and make Canada culturally distinct."... > I think there is a real wish on the part of the liberals et al to travel the route pioneered by the U.K. Scary. They are no role model for anyone, IMHO. Jim Davies ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ Topic No. 8 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 09:11:43 -0600 From: Skeeter Abell-Smith To: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Subject: bbl and bbls for barrel and barrels Message-ID: <199504181511.JAA07929@regulus> In the firearm and petroleum industries, bbl and bbls are abbreviations for barrel and barrels. This question was answered last week on CBC Saskatchewan's Morning Edition but I missed it! Does anyone here know the origin of the abbreviations? skeeter ------------------------------ Topic No. 9 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 09:13:31 -0600 From: dmiller@bbs.sd68.nanaimo.bc.ca To: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Subject: bill C68 and gardening Message-ID: <199504181513.JAA07933@regulus> I have noticed that quite a few local gardeners are pouring oil on their gardens ; why you ask? to keep their guns from rusting. Happy oiling :) Doug ----- End Included Message ----- Now you are just being silly. How is one supposed to use ones arms if one must first mangle ones petunias? =] Thanks for the joke. We need more humour here.... ------------------------------ Topic No. 10 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 09:14:44 -0600 From: Pierre_Lemieux@UQAH.UQuebec.CA To: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Subject: No to Friends of Liberty Message-ID: <199504181514.JAA07937@regulus> TO: listproc@skatter.usask.ca You might like to know that Michel Kelley-Gagnon, the president of "Les Amis de la Liberte" got a fax today from the Clerk of the Commons Committee in reply to the association's request to be heard on C-68. The answer is "no." I suspect that the tyrant did not like the idea of being challenged by young people from Quebec who are defending whatever is left of liberty in this country. Pierre Lemieux ----- End Included Message ----- I noted that quite a few groups will not be heard, and that the committee hearings will be very brief. *sigh* ------------------------------ Topic No. 11 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 09:17:50 -0600 From: wevans@vcc.bc.ca To: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Subject: Kitsilano news editorial Message-ID: <199504181517.JAA07942@regulus> Justice minister Allan Rock seems to be home free in his efforts to toughen gun control legislation. Thank goodness the anti-gun control [pro-freedom!] advocates are still attacking Rock's proposed measures, but the debate is now largely economic, with most complaints focussing on the cost and bureaucracy of Rock's plans to require registration of all firearms. The philosophical arguement against gun control has lost both credibility and strength, because the majority of Canadians want tougher gun laws. It's easy to see why. In a recent speech in Parliament, Vancouver Center MP Dr. Hedy Fry tackeled the indisputable public safety benefits of the leglislation, aside from fighting organized crime. Fry noted that the vast majority of deaths and injuries caused in Canada by firearms involved legally owned guns. Hundreds of suicides and domestichomicides occur because a desparate or angry act can turn into a fatal act when firearms are easilly accessible, Fry said. "Is this the type of society we want to maintain, where woman and children are not safe in their own homes?" asked Fry in the house. "Is this the freedom espoused by those who oppose the bill? Is there any freedom at the end of a gun?" By making firearm ownership more difficult, the legislation may take guns out of the thousands of homes where they are little more than a ticking time bomb. Rock admits his gun measures still need some refining to satisfy those concerned about the impacts of the leglislation on the legitimate gun user. One of the major major concerns was cited in a recent Fraser Institute report by SFU professor Gary Mauser which claimed the planned firearm registration plan would cost close to $500 million. A certified Canadian Firearms Safety course instructor, Mauser says the time needed to register each firearm will add up to a huge staffing cost for the government. Rock maintains that the plan will cost Ottawa $85 million over seven years. Rock says a computer based registration system will cut the time significantly. Current firearms regulation are a bureaucratic nightmare for both police and gun owners. Whatever registration system is adopted, Rock must take steps to make sure it is simple and cost efficient. But he cannot let the economic pressures deter him from the overwhelming need to make public safety the first priorty when it comes to legislating firearms ownership and use. ...This was published today in the Kitsilano News as an editorial by the editor Ted Townsend. This is one of the weekly newspapers in Fry's area. It needs, no, it screams for responses! If you have comments please let them know at; Office (604) 733-6397 Fax (604) 733-6398 ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ Topic No. 12 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 09:19:27 -0600 From: "wayne (w.) salhany" To: cdn-firearms@skatter.usask.ca Subject: Don Boudria does not wish to get mail from non-constituents Message-ID: <199504181519.JAA07945@regulus> Robert Yoke-Loong Foo writes: > On CBC Newsworld's "Ottawa Inside Out " program today at about 12:40 PM > Eastern Time, Don Boudria spoke out against the wastage of taxpayers > money, approximately $11 million, due to lobbies and special interest > groups not in MPs own ridings sending masses of letters with no > stamps. He claims that when this arrangement was made for constituents > to have mail privileges, it was meant for constituents to communicate > with THEIR own MPs. Talk about wastage of Taxpayers money... How about the donations that cities and Police Services boards make to the CfGC! > Is this the type of country Canadians want where MPs no longer wish to > hear from Canadians - especially when they overwhelmingly oppose a > proposed government policy, Bill C-68? As long as they have their pension... they have no reason to listen. > > Is this how the ruling party proposes to listen to Canadians and their > concerns? Or does the ruling party chooses to listen only when it > wishes to? You best said it by using the term RULING PARTY. > > Is the long-standing CANADIAN tradition of Canadians being able to > voice their concern to MPs through the mail free of obstruction, being > threatened by the ruling party? We are being harassed for objects we own, threatened for our use of internet to pass information... hey, why not ban our use of Canada Post! > > Is this what you as a Canadian want? We can save $11 million dollars > by scrappiong this important communications link and arrangement. But > the ruling party sees benefits, although there are no guarantees from > Allan Rock, in making Canadians spend through tax subsidization and > user pay over $1 billion for the registering of firearms? And now > members of the ruling party is saying, "I don't even want to hear from > you if you are not from my riding." Let me tell you, Boudria doesn't want to hear from you if you ARE from his riding should you think differently than he. > > Does that make sense to you? > > DEMOCRACY? What has Canada come to? Where is it going? Who implied anything about a DEMOCRACY? > > To all Glengarry-Prescott-Russell Canadians, would you please write > your MP WITHOUT A STAMP, and tell him what YOU think about his > proposal. While you are at it... you might want to CC Boudria. Wayne Salhany ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------ End of CDN-FIREARMS Digest 219 ******************************