From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mon Jun 9 19:20:08 1997 From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #876 Content-Length: 24613 X-Lines: 654 Status: RO Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, June 9 1997 Volume 01 : Number 876 In this issue: Remember C-68 when you vote Re: Add RFOCBC Pointer New Web Site for Taylor Buckner Reform's break through in Ontario... What Happened? Gun Owners Unite! Reform in ON Head in oven!!!! Re: Minimum legal barrel length. Re: Permit to Carry re: What Happened? Re: Ontario acquaintance leaving on a trip Re: Joining the Liberals. Election ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:34:44 -0600 (CST) From: jsobrian@pipcom.com (Jules Sobrian) Subject: Remember C-68 when you vote As I said all along in my newsletters and on my homepage, the slogan "Remember C-68 when you vote" was poorly thought out as an aid to our cause and the sooner it dies and is forgotten the better off the recreational firearms community will be. In the first place it reminded our foes to rise up against us. Stupid? I would say yes. In the second place, knowing that there might be a split in the anti C-68 vote because of Charest's charade, it brought a certain ambivalent indecision to those who would have liked to support our cause. Since our Ontario conservation organization saw fit to present a letter to its membership from the Conservative party, proclaiming its intention to repeal Bill C-68, without the past Conservative record of deception and betrayal, it was only logical that many members of that organization would go in that direction. I know, because of the hundreds of houses I canvassed personally. I heard the same sad song, time and time again . Contrary to the opinion of our moderator, this was a very significant cause of our losses in rural Ontario. My advice to the "conservation organizations" in future would be, if you can't do something sensible to help us, just BUTT OUT. Jules. Pres. RFO of Ontario ----- End Included Message ----- Skeeter (the cdn-firearms digest editor/moderator), responds with: I thought "Remember C-68 when you vote" was working because we tended to know what C-68 was, while antis tended to not know. What would have been a lot better? "Remember C-68 and Vote Reform"? The effect would have been the same. The phrase had to be short, too. The question is: Would enough people have voted Reform to swing the election, just because the OFAH advised them to vote that way? Of Ontario's 103 seats, 91 would have had to go Reform for there to be a Reform majority. I've been over the riding results several times and I just can't see that from the popular vote, even if PC and Reform are combined.** Even taking 45 seats was a long shot, and 45 were needed to have more seats than the Liberals (provided we also got 5 more in MB, which was also not likely). **(I think combining the Reform and PC vote is a fairly useless task because I have met few people who would actually swithc from Reform to PC, or vice versa. The parties are quite different.) Then again, you _live_ in Ontario while I am living a sheltered life here in Saskatchewan, the NDP province that now has 8 Reform MPs (of 14 seats) up from just 4. In closing: It is important to note mistakes so they can be corrected, so long as we don't start blaming and fighting with each other. Anyway, this is off-topic, and we still have a lot of work to do... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:09:09 -0600 (CST) From: steve.mclean@rfocbc.com Subject: Re: Add RFOCBC Pointer I have just been admiring your site, excellent work. I am working with the Responsible Firearms Owners Coalition of BC, we now have an internet site http://www.rfocbc.com/ Please take a look at the RFOCBC site and let me know what you think. Could you add a pointer to our site? Thanks Steve Mclean, RFOCBC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 12:09:21 -0600 (CST) From: "H. Taylor Buckner" Subject: New Web Site for Taylor Buckner Skeeter: I have put some research papers I have written on a home page. If you think it might be of interest to Digest readers or linked from the Cdn-Firearms home page please feel free to mention it or list it. You might want to check it out first, this is my first experience with setting up a web page so any suggestions would be welcome. The address is http://www3.sympatico.ca/taylor_buckner/ Regards, Taylor. ----- End Included Message ----- Skeeter (the cdn-firearms digest editor/moderator), responds with: I viewed the page with lynx and navigator and it looks fine. Papers available from the page include: * Concordia's "Gun Control" Petition: Ignorance of the Law is the Only Excuse. (Presented at the Canadian Law and Society Association Meetings, University of Calgary, 14 June 1994) * Sex and Guns: Is Gun Control Male Control? (Presented in the Deviance and Control: Quantitative Studies session of the American Sociological Association 89th Annual Meeting, Los Angeles, 5 August 1994) Research on Firearms Registration: A Presentation to the Parliamentary Justice Committee 8 May 1995. * Gun Control - Will It Work? (An Address to the St. James Literary Society, 98th Session 17 October 1995 * Zweckrationalitt versus Wertrationalitt: an Examination of Rationalities in the Gun Control Debate. (Presented at the Canadian Law and Society Association Meetings, Brock University, June 3, 1966) Canadian Attitudes Toward Gun Control: The Real Story (Gary A. Mauser & H. Taylor Buckner. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:55:29 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Reform's break through in Ontario... > I think they suck. This was Reform's chance to break through in Ontario > - running against a Liberal gov't that has systematically kicked > Ontario over and over again. It didn't happen. As a dedicated > Reformer, I can tell you this - there is NO WAY that I bust my butt for > Reform again until some accomodation with the PC's is reached in > Ontario. I will NOT fight another election with NO chance of winning. > > Ron McCutcheon P. Eng > mccutcrg@mail.rose.com I'm sorry you feel that way, Ron - I hope you reconsider. You have to keep in mind that the LibCons have very deep pockets, powerful campaign machines, and a hell of a lot of inertia behind them (not to mention the media). Reform, unfortunately, doesn't have much of any of the above. We _have_ had an effect in Ontario - second place in a vast number of ridings. We can only hope that 4 years (or less) as the Loyal Opposition will help our cause, not to mention the same amount of time for the Lieberals to dig their graves even deeper. > > But are the press uninformed about the gun issue or are they > > deliberately taking an anti gun stand due to editorial policy > > or pressure? > > Antigun fever permeates the media, and is inculcated at the basic > instructional level in every College or University that I am aware of. > An instinctual mistrust and dislike of technical devices of all sorts, > and in particular, guns is so much a part of the value system that I > don't think this subject will ever move from the symbolic to the > realistic. Therefore, I feel that little overt pressure is needed to > get the knee-jerk responses that are so common. For every Claire Hoy > there are hundreds of Peter Gzowskis. > > Jim Davies Someone else said: > Also - much dinging of Reform, still! It's almost like The PM and "PC > Curly" think the campaign is still on. There must be something we can do about this. Isn't there a regulatory body that can deal with this? What about the CRTC, or the Canadian Press Council? How about challenging their licences when they come up for renewal? An argument could be made that their "news" programming really isn't "news" anymore. I agree that each news outlet has the right to have a particular "slant" in the way it presents its news, but the stuff that has been coming out about the Reform and guns is pushing the propaganda envelope very thin. Freedom of the press shouldn't mean they have the right to lie to us. > > Contrary to popular belief, Toronto is not Ontario. There is something > > North of Steeles Avenue and lots of it. > > I don't know about that. Anyone I have ever met who lives within 500 > kms of Toronto is "from Toronto." > > Peter Cronhelm Black and Green, Carbon Fibre Racing Machine > SBKracer This kind of attitude serves no one well. If we, with common interests and goals cannot get past this kind of animosity, then we deserve everything we get. > It has been suggested also that we need to open up our wallets some > more, and put our money where our mouths are (not to suggest that some > haven't been doing this already!) but the opportunity to make a big > difference with little discomfort is for all of us to use the monthly > pledge to the NFA from a couple of Digest ago! (and the AFGA if you > can!) > > Dave dwarner@sympatico.ca (PGP key upon request) This is exactly what we need to be doing. Don't give up the fight because the Reform didn't win a majority government (I'm as disappointed as everyone else). We need to take the fight to the govenrment, and the media, and the people, by whatever means are available to us. Bruce Hamilton, not Toronto ----- End Included Message ----- Skeeter (the cdn-firearms digest editor/moderator), responds with: In addition to donations, we need to act. We need to be proactive. Instead of just responding to their moves, we need to lead by encouraging people to take the FAC course, taking friends out to shoot, hunt, etc., helping with programs like "Becoming an Outdoors Woman", the NFA Patches shooting skills program, and encouraging the shooting sports through Big Brothers, Big Sisters, the various "scouting" organisations, and so on. We must keep this issue alive with informational/fundraising rallies and letters to the editor. When there is a confiscation, make sure the media know. When a station uses a pistol graphic for a robbery involving no gun, complain. When someone writes a lie about C-68, make sure it gets corrected. Continue to talk to people you know about how C-68 is about more than just registration. We have provincial governments challenging this law and we have three federal parties making promises to repeal or amend the bill. Despite claims that anti-gun laws are not an issue, they are. We made them an issue. We made sure that when the press write about the "new gun law" they normally use the word "controversial". We've come so far. We can't give up now. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:17:26 -0600 (CST) From: owend@globec.com.au (Owen Dare) Subject: What Happened? >From: Ron McCutcheon > >>Second, as to what the hell happened in Ontario, here are my wild >>4. Seriously, ladies & gentlemen, was anyone really expecting huge >>Ontario gains for Reform? > >Yes!! The PC's were clarly dead federally. A vote for the PC's was a >vote for the Liberals. Why didn't that message get across?? > >>I think the election results were great. > >I think they suck. This was Reform's chance to break through in Ontario > - running against a Liberal gov't that has systematically kicked >Ontario over and over again. It didn't happen. As a dedicated >Reformer, I can tell you this - there is NO WAY that I bust my butt for >Reform again until some accomodation with the PC's is reached in >Ontario. I will NOT fight another election with NO chance of winning. > Hello All, I hope you will forgive the observations of an outsider on your electoral ambitions. What I see here is a carbon copy of events in Australia over the past 7-8 years. You should be very wary of accommodating the policies of other parties as it inevitably leads to such dilution that all parties look the same to the voter. This has gone on for years here, with the traditional right/conservatives (The Nationals) looking more and more like all the rest every year. This has finally come to a head with the emergence of Pauline Hanson, a women who speaks out against all the base fears of our working class (immigration, pandering to black Australians, government waste etc). Unfortunately, she and other more extreme elements are not co-ordinated enough and are too devisive ( we have had riots at many of her rallies) to be a genuine alternative to mainstream Australia. You must remember, that despite all the posturing about gunlaws, the average Australian and/or Canadian when it comes to the privacy of the ballot box, is painfully aware of such matters as jobs, food, crime, schools for their children etc. Do not dilute your stand on guns etc, but rather formulate and disseminate you policies on all these issues (I am assuming that reform campaigned largely on the gun issue). You must remain a CLEAR alternative, but also be a complete alternative in order to succeed. *Please* learn from OUR mistakes, it would be some comfort to know that our losses might be of some benefit. Owen Dare owend@globec.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:18:15 -0600 (CST) From: "Ian Dummigan" Subject: Gun Owners Unite! If us gun owners want to defeat the anti's then we had better stop fighting each other! I call upon ALL gun owners across Canada to stand united! The best way to change peoples way of thinking is to educate them, let's all make the FULL contents of C-68 available to the general public, then we can see if they support it. This will show what a true dictator Chretien is, and Canadians can choose if they really want a police state where nobody will have rights. The question is will Canadians want to spend 500 million dollars to control guns or would they rather see this money go into healthcare and job creation? Let's start asking these questions! Ian Dummigan Remember: the war ain't over until the anti's are gone! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:19:57 -0600 (CST) From: "hebertg" Subject: Reform in ON Although I am new to this Digest I can't help but make the following statement, To those out there slamming Ontario for going "Liberal",do you think that anyone who reads this list voted for them?? Come on people save your complaining for those that it is directed at, not those unfortunates who are living in a Province that has made the unforgivable error of allowing the liberals four more years of spomping all over our rights. For your info I did vote Reform,so whine somewhere else. Thanks Gerry Hebert E-MAIL- hebertg@renc.igs.net ----- End Included Message ----- Skeeter (the cdn-firearms digest editor/moderator), responds with: I must agree. It's been a week now. Let's let the discussion back on track. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:20:50 -0600 (CST) From: "G. Dormody" Subject: Head in oven!!!! Rick young wrote: >Reform is official opposition - FANTASTIC! >In our typically unorthodox way, we creamed the Liberals in Atlantic >Canada... >But what the hell happened in Ontario???? ... >So, the arrogant p---ks are back in with a slender majority, and we now >have 5 parties with official status, including the walking dead PCs... >Dave, Skeeter, Taylor - someone give me some wisdom - I don't know >whether to be happy, indifferent or go stick my head in the oven! (Oh >yeah, I forgot - it's electric, so I'll have to think of something >else.) >Happy, depressed, sad and confused in Halifax. Rick, your oven is probably registered with Sears so there's no way it could be used to do yourself in, RIGHT ? BTW, I am also proud that we kicked those liberals out of Atlantic Canada. I just wrote Allan Rock and, amongst other things, I asked him if he could help me get in contact with Bonnie Hickey (Lib. loser, St. John's East) as I was having trouble getting her at her office ! Do you think he'll get the humour ? dorm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:22:01 -0600 (CST) From: "John E. Stevens" Subject: Re: Minimum legal barrel length. >Get this! The RCMP issue S&W 5946 9mm will be banned to civilians >because it has a 4" barrel. This is not a small gun and is certainly >not a "Saturday Night Special". Go figure! > > > ----- End Included Message ----- > >Skeeter (the cdn-firearms digest editor/moderator), responds with: > >There is no such thing as a "SNS", that's a media term. What's >wrong with small pistols anyway? People with small hands (like me) >find them very handy and confortable. Where is the sense in banning >smaller calibres when something more deadly is still legal? Hmmm. I can hear Uncle Al now. 'We banned the inoffensive little .32 surely everyone can see we must ban that great big deadly magnum.' ..........john ----- End Included Message ----- [That _is_ the next logical step. -- Skeeter] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:24:00 -0600 (CST) From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Re: Permit to Carry >I would like to know if I have a membership to gun club in province >different than the one I live in, is that sufficient to request a >Permit to Carry to that province? No. The issuer can only issue for his own province's residents, but the issuer in your province can issue a multi-province Permit to Carry where the purpose of carrying is target practice. Where it is "to protect life," only the Commissioner of the RCMP can issue a multi-province Permit to Carry. Dave Tomlinson, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:27:46 -0600 (CST) From: John Fowler Subject: re: What Happened? >>> "The Riding Association has power. It can refuse to put MY NAME on >>> the ballot in the NEXT federal election >>One problem. The Liberal Party constitution permits the Federal >>Executive to disband a local riding association if it opposes >>the Federal Party policy. Riding associations executives are >>then replaced with "loyal" members and a candidate will be >>parachuted in...if necessary. >From: Ron McCutcheon : >Right on. I joined the Liberal Party SPECIFICALLY to oppose Allan >Rock's renomination. They didn't even hold a nomination meeting. >>Second, as to what the hell happened in Ontario, here are my wild >>4. Seriously, ladies & gentlemen, was anyone really expecting huge >>Ontario gains for Reform? >From: Ron McCutcheon : >Yes!! The PC's were clarly dead federally. A vote for the PC's was a >vote for the Liberals. Why didn't that message get across?? >>I think the election results were great. >From: Ron McCutcheon : >I think they suck. This was Reform's chance to break through in Ontario > - running against a Liberal gov't that has systematically kicked >Ontario over and over again. It didn't happen. As a dedicated >Reformer, I can tell you this - there is NO WAY that I bust my butt for >Reform again until some accomodation with the PC's is reached in >Ontario. Well - I guess you're out of it then, Ron. Cause there's NO WAY Reform can accomodate that lot without alienating most Reformers. Was nice knowing you. Walk softly and join the NFA The gun you save may be your own. John Fowler ----- End Included Message ----- [We must _not_ fight amoungst ourselves... -- Skeeter] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:29:23 -0600 (CST) From: John Fowler Subject: Re: Ontario >From: The Ole Timer > >Fellow firearms enthusists; > >I have read in several postings now as to those in Ontario causing the >Liberals to be elected and that there were few interested in Reform! > >WRONG! And I am quite upset to think that members beyond Ontario think >that ALL in Ontario helped to elect the Liberal landslide so as to >speak! > >Many of us fought long and hard, spent many hours of our free time >promoting Reform at every opportunity and I for one, ladies/gentlemen >forwarded all incoming info from the the NFA via the net to the local >Reform office and I have also been doing so for my local club. > >Although it is true that it is a very black day for firearms owners, it >is also true that it is a very black day for Canada and we should be >thinking about what will become of this nation we all love so well. I don't agree that it was such a "black" day at all - kinda grey, tho' We HAVE now the beginnings of a strong, united voice of aware gun owners - we now will have the information to recruit all those who aren't yet aware of the evils of C-68 - and Reform in Ontario is NOW accepted, by the media and population, as a real player on the Canadian political scene. The job now (and it won't be four years, BTW), is to build on this solid Reform base in Ontario to demonstrate that Reform speaks for Canada! Walk softly and join the NFA The gun you save may be your own. John Fowler ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:32:47 -0600 (CST) From: anon@inter.net Subject: acquaintance leaving on a trip Greetings! An acquaintance of mine is leaving on a trip that may take him into Canada (SK to be exact) for part of the way. Because he plans on camping in some pretty wild country, he brings along a shotgun. He keeps it in a locked case in his camper when travelling. Last year he was advised by a member of the NFA to get re-entry papers on the US side, and to inform the Canadian border guards that he had the weapon for wildlife protection and for doing some skeet shooting (which he also intended to do). This worked fine for him, and the border guards had no problem with letting him in. They didn't even bother inspecting the weapon. Would this approach still be a good one for him to use, or are new restrictions that might cause him problems? Any information that you could provide would be welcomed. Thank you very much. ----- End Included Message ----- [I can't think of anything that has changed... -- Skeeter] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 18:56:12 -0600 (CST) From: bhagar@onlink.net Subject: Re: Joining the Liberals. The Liberal application form requires that you not be a member of any other political party. It may be worthwile trying to publicly shame them on this. Someone wondered what the NFA is doing at the local level. I think this is a neglected area where we can build our strength. My home page on my internet provider is an ad for the NFA. I purchased 100 bag signs and bumper stickers and handed them out to the local Reform office, the Skeet club, and numerous friends. But the NFA has to heighten it's profile, especially in Ontario. I've made my peace with the OFAH. Gord Gallant's posting explained their position very well. It's good that they represent 75,000 Ontarians when they meet with the MNR, but it should be in the hundreds of thousands. You're right, Dave. It has to come from the grass roots. Brian bhagar@onlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 18:59:19 -0600 (CST) From: Reg Metcalfe Subject: Election We in Ontario fought a long and hard battle to try and introduce change (Reform Party). We made inroads, but the ConLiberal agenda still has a lot of people blinded. Many people are saying Reform wants to split up Canada, and that is why they voted for the PC/Liberal. I just want to say that not all Ontario voted for the Liberals/PC's, there are a lot of us seeing the light, some for the first time. Voter apathy plays a large part, most people vote Liberal because thats what we have always done. NEXT TIME I am hoping to see Ontario in the Reform fold. I was listening to an US Radio station whose listeners are strong supporters of the second amendment. The word going out is that all hunters, sportsmen and vacationeers, and those who go to Canada for any reason, boycott Canada, as a message to Rock and his draconian gun laws. This message is being spread all across the US, via NRA TNUSA and the various hunting and sporting organizations. This group felt that since Rock would not listen to Canadians, perhaps the loss of US Dollar spending in Canada might help. They also apologized to the Canadian industries dependent on their business, but felt they had no other alternative. Reg & Elsie Metcalfe NFA Supporters ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #876 **********************************