From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Wed Jun 18 17:03:34 1997 From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #886 Content-Length: 24523 X-Lines: 642 Status: RO Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, June 18 1997 Volume 01 : Number 886 In this issue: Re: Mauser Rifles and other articles Re: Has anyone seen this article? Re: The ONLY safe way? firearms and children Coalition Funding Request Walther PPK Part Re: Oh, Canada! CPA Endorsement of Bill C-68 Plan "C" Liberal Trained Seals (the only shallow waters sub-species). trajectory Unintended..... Re: NFA Membership Problem Manitoba's 10 Point Statement - Point #8 Unintended Consequences Coalition for Gun Control Update Is the 6.5 X 57 cartridge a wildcat? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:35:04 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Re: Mauser Rifles and other articles >Just a short note of appreciation for those fascinating stories on firearms. > >I enjoyed your write-up on the Gyrojet and Dardick "tround" as they >brought back a few memories. Somewhere in my basement collection is a >fired "Gyrojet". Accuracy was just about nonexistent with those critters. > >I also have a molded plastic tround. This is a full plastic cartridge, not >a sleeve for a conventional brass .38 Spl. I believe it may have been >something our project engineering dept. cooked up. I was working on >weird and wonderful gov. pyrotechnics at the time ('66-'68) and have no >real memory on how it fell into my collection, except that it came from one >of our laboratories. Probably not; Dardick did make some of those, but the "sleeved" .38 was easier, cheaper and reloadable -- so it was used more often. >I remember hearing a rumor that Dardick was the victim of a stock swindle >or some other shady dealing that brought his weapons to a faster than >expected end. >My son informs me that, while occupied elsewhere, I have missed another >"neat" article on the Mauser while he was making sure the email wasn't >piling up on me. I can trace it down without too much problem, but would >it be possible to have these works compiled so as to be easily accessed >from the web site? Email Remington Nevin at remnevin@interlog.com and ask him. He puts the stuff into www.nfa.ca Dave Tomlinson, NFA >Firearms history and development is a fascinating subject, and ready access >to a small part of your knowledge would be of interest and help to a large >number of shooters. >"To know what is right, and not do it, is the worst form of cowardice." >-Confucius ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:39:33 -0600 From: "Calvin Martin, Q.C." Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this article? At 09:44 PM 1997/06/16 -0600, John Fowler wrote: >Meet the new justice minister >By MICHAEL JENKINSON >Edmonton Sun > >Does this Sun have a home page? Yes, there is a home page for the Sun Newspapers chain, the Financial Post and Macleans: http://www.canoe.ca The column you refer to is at: http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/jenkinson.html Calvin Martin, Q.C., LL.B. 600 Church Street, Toronto, Ontario, M4Y 2E7 Tel 416 922-5854 Fax 416 944-0285 Email dvc14@fox.nstn.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:42:32 -0600 From: "John E. Stevens" Subject: Re: The ONLY safe way? At 10:08 PM 6/13/97 -0600, Bud wrote: >--------------------------------------------------- >I read with great interest the "methods" for making a flintlock rifle safe >to transport. Thanks for the chuckle. It's obvious that there aren't many >who understand the flintlock. > >1. The ONLY safe way to transport ANY firearm is UNLOADED >The regulations may say otherwise, but .................... I don't think the CFC bulletin stated that it was safe. Only that it was regarded as unloaded. The purpose seemed to be to allow hunters to move from one area to another while "unloading" with the same "convenience as those who use cartridge guns. I can't think of many hunt camps one would be too popular in if every time he moved from one area to another, or crossed a fence, etc., he discharged his muzzle loader. A very acceptable method is to clean any powder from the pan, plug the touch hole with a feather and close the frizzen on it, and leaving it on half cock. Much safer than removing the flint. And I don't think that anyone is suggesting that a loaded firearm is SAFE. ...............john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:50:17 -0600 From: "Steven W. Klassen" Subject: firearms and children [The following is a letter e-mailed to: "'The Calgary Herald'" -moderator] I am writing regarding the column "Firearms and children a lethal combination" by David Swan in the June 17 issue of the Herald. In this column David ask how we should deal with this "ongoing violation of our humanity." He mentions that he does not know if the "proposed legislation" would help. Most studies indicate that it will not. (Note that the legislation is not "proposed" - it has been passed but not proclaimed.) David makes one statement which is key. "Proper training and adult modeling of respectful handling a firearm is also crucial." I would go beyond this and state that proper training is the most important key in reducing child (and adult) firearms related accidents. This has been done with great success by the provincial hunter organizations for some time now. However there has been a recent shift away from this training. As it has become more "politically incorrect" I have seen more and more organizations such as summer camps drop their firearms programs. We are beginning to see the results of these actions. Far from improving the situation the new laws actually make it more difficult and expensive to train young people. There are those such as myself (a volunteer instructor with the WYSE foundation) who are willing to put up the extra time and expense (usually from our own pockets) to do this necessary training. However there are many who will decide it is not worth the trouble. For this reason I suspect that the new laws will actually lead to a reduction in proper training of young people and a corresponding increase in Greg Davie style accidents. David states "surely anything we can do as a society to prevent even a single death would be a huge achievement." Here is something we can do. Bring a basic level of firearm safety training into our schools at the High School level. It works with motor vehicles, why not with firearms? This is a solution which is simple, inexpensive, and has been shown to be effective. Steve Klassen klassens@cadvision.com Calgary, Alberta ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:06:43 -0600 From: Larry Whitmore Subject: Coalition Funding Request Attached is a letter which is coming before Toronto City Council today (Tues. June 17). (file attached) I find it quite interesting that last October, the Coalition approached Toronto City Council for $20,000 to cover Mr. Ruby's travel expenses as he had publicly committed to defending C-68 for free. If Mr. Ruby charges his friends $4,000 per day, I would hate to see what he charges his regular clients. Perhaps he is not as dedicated to defending C-68 as the media would have us believe. Stay tuned, there will be more on this shortly. Larry Whitmore Executive Manager - Ontario Handgun Association Director - Shooting Federation of Canada June 11, 1997 Mayor Barbara Hall and Members of Council City Hall Toronto, Ontario M5H 2N2 Dear Friends: As you will recall, the Coalition for Gun Control, the City of Toronto. City Of Montreal, and Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police are among the groups which have successfully obtained intervenor status in Alberta's constitutional challenge to our new gun control law. Alberta, supported by several other provinces and gun lobby groups is waging an aggressive attack on the very basis of gun control. It is critically important that we ensure that both the merits and the constitutionality of the new law are supposed. The federal government is concentrating on the constitutional issues and we have been focusing on defending its merits. Due to a series of unanticipated events, including a change of lawyers by the Federal government and a series of decisions by the court, the project has become an enormous undertaking. We have had to prepare and coordinate more than 18 expert affidavits. Clayton Ruby and a team of lawyers from across the country waived their fees for the initial preparation of the case and donated considerable amounts of time. The City of Toronto legal department has also provided assistance. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police has also made a contribution towards expenses and assisted with the preparation of affidavits by Canadian and international police. I personally have spent much of the last few months assisting with research and coordination and the Coalition has already paid more than $10,000 towards expenses. For the Coalition it is a huge unplanned investment - our total operating budget last year was only $120,000 - and as you know, I am a volunteer. Mr. Ruby's latest estimate of this costs to complete the case is $130,000 (see attached letter) and I am writing to request that City of Toronto contribute $100,000. We are writing to other interveners as well but are facing very tight time constraints because our revised factum must be filed by July 11, 1997. I would appreciate it if you would consider this request as soon as possible and am happy to provide further details it needed. Thank you, as always, for your support. Yours truly, Wendy Cukier, President, Coalition for Gun Control Ruby & Edwardh The following is my projection of the costs of the reference: Fees to the end of May 1997 $ 41,403.65 Disbursements to the end of May 1997 $ 9,000.00 Agents fees (counsel in Alberta for motions etc.) $ 10,000.00 Preparation of the factum $ 10,000.00 Preparation of motion re: Killias $ 5,000.00 Preparation for Hearing: $ 10,000.00 Attendance for hearing: Clayton Ruby @ 4,000/day plus 2 days travel $ 28,000.00 Jill Copeland @ 1,750/day plus 2 days travel $ 12,250.00 Additional disbursements copying and binding of $ 5,000.00 material, travel and hotel costs for tearing) TOTAL: $130,653.65 If you require a further breakdown of these figures, please let me know. Yours very truly. Clayton C. Ruby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:10:06 -0600 From: SHELDON CLARE Subject: Walther PPK Part Does anyone know where I can obtain a safety (old style) for a pre-war Walther PPK in 7.65mm? Please don't say "Gun Parts" in New York, they have been unable to find me this part for 11 years. Thanks, Sheldon Clare ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:15:35 -0600 From: damiank@repo-dev.ml.com (Damian R. Kanarek) Subject: Re: Oh, Canada! >When I explained to her the part about visits from government inspectors to >gun owner’s homes, she replied, “Oh, that would be fine by me. I don’t >have anything to hide from the police.” I dare say that the sentiments that >she expressed that day are all too common within our society.... >-M. Swierzy, moderator.] Having been born and somewhat raised in a Communist country where issues such as personal privacy and "civil liberties" where deemed to be against the communal good, I find it amusing (and frightening) that people in Canada (or elsewhere in the Western world) are so free and quick to give up their rights. I think it's simply because they don't understand what it is they have, and certainly don't appreciate it. Let's ignore for the moment the question of whether firearm ownership was a right. I can't help and wonder what kind of an individual would not consider it a right to protect her/his privacy, in her/his own house, in the absence of any evidence of criminal activity. I just don't see how, when given the option not to, you would freely want to let the police into your own home. It's beyond me (and I'm someone who's always been very much pro-police and pro-military). Damian - -- Damian R. Kanarek (damiank@ml.com) if( OFFENDED_BY_CONTENT ) The author takes no responsibility for this msg. \ Any resemblance to a coherent rational thought is purely coincidental. \ - The Management ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:21:37 -0600 From: BOB LICKACZ Subject: CPA Endorsement of Bill C-68 The Canadian Police Association (CPA) in a presentation to the federal government entitled "Canadian Police Association Brief to the Commons Justice and Legal Affairs Committee" given May 3,1995 gave conditional endorsement to Bill C-68. "While our Association supports what is contained in large part in this Bill, that support is conditional on adjustments being made to what now is proposed in Bill C-68 insofar as registration is concerned." "Purely regulatory non-compliance with the future regulatory provisions of Bill C-68 should not result in criminalization of current lawful and law abiding firearms owners." "It is, in our view, a severe mistake to potentially criminalize a large, previously completely law abiding segment of society." "The Bill requires significant improvement in its enforcement measures and must be amended so as to not criminalize unjustifiably." Given the lack of amendments to the original Bill, I wondered what the current position of the CPA was with respect to Bill C-68. I called Scott Newark (head of the CPA) this morning and he said, and I quote: "The CPA continues to endorse Bill C-68." Bob Lickacz NFA, Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:26:36 -0600 From: SHELDON CLARE Subject: Plan "C" Discussions about what to do next are very helpful, but the Plan "B" option of joining and working within the Liberal Party is not acceptable or viable to most firearms owners here for many reasons. These include overwhelming support for Reform. For example, re-elected MP Jay Hill received more votes that the votes for the liberals, Tories, NDP and everyone else combined AND DOUBLED. Most firearms owners and voters here are well aware of what liberals and conservatives have done to us. One of our local charter rights officers spent the entire campaign organizing and working to get MP Dick Harris re-elected. His efforts, and those of many others dramatically increased the votes for the Reform candidates in our area. For discussion here is plan "C": 1. Continue and expand the networking that arose out of the Langley and other Symposiums. 2. Link pro-gun groups together in a unified and cohesive assault on present and future gun control. Anytime a "gun incident" crops up, be the media contact that says "This is another example of the failure of gun control..." 3. We must be proactive. This issue stills does not have enough of a profile in many areas to get our message out. 4. We must be aggressive. Make contact with the media in your area. Cultivate friendships with individual reporters - get positive media support. If you are having trouble with this, see my article "Getting Good Press" published earlier in the digest. 5. Begin a proactive national advertising campaign about the very real civil liberties problems that gun control and other people control bills create. 6. Bluntly educate, politicians about the very real long term effects of "gun control." The JPFO have some very good strategies for this. 7. Encourage passive resistance as a legitimate form of non-compliance. Many of these steps are already being taken in some areas, but the success of this requires more co-ordination. The fight for the next election began on June 3rd! S. Clare NFA CRO & FO JPFO Member and Contributor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:34:28 -0600 From: Ron McCutcheon Subject: Liberal Trained Seals (the only shallow waters sub-species). >Miz McLellan was asked two questions by the press: >If there is any substance to this person, she has missed the opportunity >to make a good first impression. She merely comes across as a trained >seal, already out of her depth. What else do Liberals HAVE? Ron McCutcheon P. Eng mccutcrg@mail.rose.com Good gun control is a keen eye and a steady hand. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 23:21:05 -0600 From: mtoma Subject: trajectory If you were to take a .270, .30-06, 7mm-08, .300 WinMag, 7mm Mag, in fact almost any cartridge that has a velocity of about 2700 to 3200 fps and sight them in 3 inches high at 100 yards, the result would be thus. Dead on from 200 to 240 yards, and 3-6 inches low at 300 yards. Not enough to miss a good whitetail if you know the range within 50 yards. I have yet to meet a man who can judge open ground well, beyond 300 yards. I have met precious few who can hit anything from a field position at that distance as well. The Big 20, as gleaned from Cooper's Commentaries. 20 shots in 20 seconds into a 20 inch circle at 1000 yards. It has been done. Cooper's "Art of the Rifle" will be released via Paladin Press (that really politically incorrect bookplace) soon. Be sure to get your copy. Excerpts via Guns and Ammo show Cooper's characteristic style and truth. Any serious shooter should have a copy. In the near future, the future of .50 BMG caliber shooting in Canada. Does it exist? Can you play too? That and other questions will be addressed soon. Lets post the Digest, how to sign on etc. in every gun/sporting store. The good word must be spread. The internet is the secret society's best place to hide yet. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 23:24:07 -0600 From: mtoma Subject: Unintended..... Unintended Consequences, the greatest aboveground (still) novel about freedom and guns yet written. I have been pushing this book so much, I should get a free copy. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 23:30:30 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Re: NFA Membership Problem >>>Just received my membership card good to May 31, 1999. I sent in my >>>membership in April for one year, and received a card dated May 31, >>>1998. Please check your records, if you wish I will pay for my >>>membership period May 1998 to May 1999 now: Membership # is **** >>>You may contact me by e-mail at the above address. >>>**** ********** >> >>Forwarded to Calgary for investigation. It looks like you MAY have sent >>us two cheques. >> >>Dave... >> >If I have sent two cheques, that's ok. I won't send one next year. > >For your info. > >I joined Reform Party in the spring. >Sent $100.00 to Reform Party. >Sent $100.00 to A.F.G.A. >Set up a Meet the Reform Candidate meeting. >Put up Reform signs. >Talked to everyone I could about Reform. > >THANKS for all you have done. >**** *********** >CANADA where you're free to do just what the government will let you... Thank YOU for being INVOLVED. Thank you for CONTINUING to be involved, CONTINUING to build the firearms community into a STRONGER voting bloc. Dave Tomlinson, NFA FOCUS: The war is never over until ALL of one side surrenders. A defeat is meaningless if the losers use it to build strength. Early in WW II, the Germans "took" Yugoslavia. Two resistance movements started up, the Cetniks and the Partisans. The Germans reacted to their attacks by shooting hostages. The Cetniks reacted to that by stopping their attacks on Germans, to save the lives of innocent hostages. The Partisans reacted to it by recruiting the friends and relatives of the people the Germans had shot, then redoubling the attacks. Throughout the war, the Germans never held ALL of Yugoslavia. In fact, they usually held less than half of it, while the rest was under Partisan control. It became difficult to see Germans as "the boss," when there were large areas of the nation where they were afraid to go. The moral of this story is: When "the boss" hands you a lemon, make lemonade. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:13:57 -0600 From: John Bauer Subject: Manitoba's 10 Point Statement - Point #8 MANITOBA'S 10 POINT STATEMENT - POINT #8: The NFA and the GUN LOBBY believe that it is fair to state that if Ms. Wendy Cukier of the Coalition for Gun Control can seek regular advice and direction from International and American groups so can the GUN LOBBY! End of Point #8. J.Bauer President NFA Manitoba National NFA Director JB: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:17:19 -0600 From: Roger Walker Subject: Unintended Consequences Upon hearing of this book on this Mailing List, I checked out the local book stores, to no avail. I then checked out amazon.com and placed an order. It just arrived, after less than two weeks. My only complaint is with our government: I usually allow an extra 50% for the Canadian cost of something imported from the U.S. for dollar conversion, GST, Duty, etc. and it has always been conservative. This time, however, the cost was over 70% higher! Anyway, no holdup at the border, it seems, and Amazon service is very quick. Good book :-) - --- Roger Walker, Director Pager (403) 470-1808, Fax (403) 440-2685 ROSCO Associates Technology Staffing Ltd. (RATS!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:41:33 -0600 From: Larry Whitmore Subject: Coalition for Gun Control Update Further to the request by the Coalition for $100,000 from the City of Toronto. The Executive Committee has passed a motion to grant Wendy the sum of $50,000 to offset Clayton Ruby's 'free' legal expenses. This motion will have to be passed by the full City Council at the June 23/24 meeting. They also want to send a request to all Canadian municipalities over 100,000 to donate as well. Last week on the news, there was a desperate plea from a battered women’s shelter in Toronto for $30,000 to keep their doors open. They had been told that there was no funding available. Now the City wants to waste $50,000 of tax money defending federal government legislation in another province. Worst yet, this tax money will go straight into Clayton Ruby's pocket. Is this responsible use of tax money? Hopefully, the Mega City amalgamation will force most of these councilors to the unemployment line. Unfortunately, it won't come soon enough. Larry Whitmore Executive Manager - Ontario Handgun Association Director - Shooting Federation of Canada ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:41:57 -0600 From: Peter Kearns Subject: Is the 6.5 X 57 cartridge a wildcat? > Date: Mon, 16 June 1997 > From: jsobrian@pipcom.com (Jules Sobrian) > Subject: M96 Swedish Mauser rifle > > [The following has to do with David A. Tomlinson’s recent piece on the > development of the Mauser rifles -moderator] > > To my knowledge, the Swedish Mauser rifles from M94 through M96 to > M41 were all chambered for the 6.5 X 55 cartridge, not 6.5 X 57, which is > a modern wildcat. > > Jules I should point out that the above information is incorrect, the 6.5 x 57 is not a modern wildcat. The Mauser brothers tried to sell the 6.5 x 57mm as a military chambering. Their logic was that the 6.5 was at the time a popular military cartridge, used in various chamberings by Greece, Italy, Japan etc... Mauser simply necked down their successful 7 x 57mm, and tried to sell the cartridge ....unfortunately there were no takers, but it is still highly regarded in Europe as a sporting round. Mauser did chamber some of their current rifles at the time (1900) in the 6.5 x 57, but I do not know whether they did it with any of the Swedish contract ones. regards, Peter ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #886 **********************************