From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sun Jul 13 08:56:30 1997 From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #907 Content-Length: 23709 X-Lines: 538 Status: RO Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, July 13 1997 Volume 01 : Number 907 In this issue: The path to disaster. (Part 2 of 2) Hi cap mags Hollowpoint Ammo in Canada British Pistol Prohibitions Re: Guns in Victoria Re: Storage Questions Alberta Machine Gun Shoot (Part 1 of 2) Alberta Machine Gun Shoot [part 2 of 2] I'm on holiday ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 11:47:53 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: The path to disaster. (Part 2 of 2) Look at the record. Until 1934, handguns did not have to be registered. Until 1945, full automatic firearms did not have to be registered. Today, all unregistered full automatics have been converted to "prohibited weapon" status. 57 per cent of all handguns in Canada have been converted to "prohibited firearm" status. Many rifles and shotguns -- including some bolt-action single shot rifles -- have been converted to "prohibited weapon" status. Analyze that pattern, and you will realize that the government is trying to eliminate "the most dangerous firearms." So far, the full automatics were identified as "the most dangerous" -- so they were outlawed. That left "firearms that looked nasty" as "the most dangerous" -- so Kim Campbell's list -- the firearms she thought "looked nasty" and put on the "restricted" list -- were put on the "prohibited" list by Alan Rock. That left the small handguns as "the most dangerous" -- so THEY were outlawed. Look at it. That is a PROGRESSION, and its future path is utterly predictable. Australia has ALREADY taken the next obvious step, by outlawing all pump-action shotguns and rifles, and all semi-automatic shotguns and rifles. That step is INEVITABLE here in Canada too, IF THIS PROGRESSION CONTINUES. No matter what is outlawed, there will always be a "next" firearm type that becomes "the most dangerous" -- and therefore will become "the" target for outlawing -- until ALL firearms are outlawed. Because the criminal population ignores ALL of the firearms restrioctions (including registration), sets up its own marketplaces for smuggled handguns, and is fully capable of operating a sophisticated "underground" market, the entire weight of the firearms control system falls on the honest citizen who is NOT part of a largely mythical "firearms problem." Therefore, the firearms control system can NEVER have serious effects on firearms crime. But nothing can stop that progression except an admission by government and its bureaucrats that they are on a wrong path, taken in error. They are very unlikely to make such an admission until the political Party responsible is thrown out of office and replaced by a Party uncontaminated by making the same error in a previous government. We have before us example after example of firearms that were converted from unrestricted to restricted to prohibited status. There is NO REASON WHATEVER to believe that this pattern will not continue and expand. The main forces driving that expansion are: 1. the failure of this complex system to produce any useful results, 2. the claim that "We just did not go far enough!" to explain that failure, and 3. the inability of the government, Minister and bureaucrats to admit error. It is a very common failing to say, "Hey, that change did not produce the good results we expected from it. Therefore, we must go FURTHER down the SAME path to reach the good effects." Unfortunately for the miguided who adopt that falacious reasoning, the path then have chosen all too often only leads deeper into the swamp. It is not failure to go far enough. It is failure caused by the FACT that the THEORY is wrong, and will NEVER produce the desired results. Over the next few years, the Minister proposes to register all rifles and shotguns in Canada -- some 20 million of them. The bureaucrats propose registering them by "the postcard method" -- giving out registrations on the basis of the owner's estimate of the "correct" entries for "unique registration." The "postcard method" is absolutely guaranteed to stuff the system with errors and misidentifications -- but it is the method forced onto the government by its inability to provide "eyes-on" identification BEFORE a rifle or shotgun registration certificate is issued. In order to clean up the unholy mess that "postcard method" registration will create, the bureaucrats propose to use "eyes-on" identification by government employees the NEXT time the firearm is transferred from one person to another. That ignores the FACT that the inability to provide "eyes-on" identification cannot be corrected by delaying it. Delay is a typical bureaucratic move to prevent recognition of failure. So is changing a massive wave of failure (initial "eyes-on" identification) into a scattered form of failure (failure to identify by one-at-a-time transactions during transfers). It will take over 30 years to clean up the mess that "postcard registration" will create in the registration files by that method. Regardless of WHEN it is done, "eyes-on" identification -- of a quality good enough to produce even a weak approximation of "unique identification" -- is EXPENSIVE. TR-1994-9e points out that it is the "eyes-on" identification that boosts the cost of a registration transfer to an average of $89.62 per transfer. "Eyes-on" identification of 20 million rifles and shotguns -- whenever it is done, as done it MUST be, sooner or later -- will cost at least that much per firearm. For ease of calculation, let us boost that 1994 figure to $90 to make up for inflation. Then $90 times 20 million firearms gives a cost of $1.8 BILLION. And that does NOT cover the "eyes-on" identification of any firearm that is sold, bartered, or given away AGAIN after the FIRST "eyes-on" identification. Trade in used firearms -- particularly rifles and shotguns -- in Canada is massive. Those costs need to be looked at, and analyzed for cost-effectiveness. Clearly, firearms are transferred from one Canadian to another quite frequently. To the $1.8 billion cost of "first transfer" after registration, we must add the cost of every OTHER transfer -- and ongoing per-year cost that will be rather staggering -- BUT CANNOT BE MADE COST-EFFECTIVE. Registration is not an end in itself. It must serve some useful purpose, give some benefit to society -- benefit sufficient to justify the COST of running the registration system. At this moment, the bureaucrats are trying to "computerize" initial registration and later transfers. Anyone who thinks that will work should read Firearms Act sections [FA s.] 27(a)(ii) and (iii) (noting that the operative word is "shall"), examine the effect that FA s. 120 will have on processing data during firearms transfers (the information found on a "grandfathered" FAC is NOT the same information that is found on a C-68 "license"), and notice that firearms community willingness to give "necessary" information will be severely restricted by FA s. 106(1) and (3) when coupled with FA s. 109. Dave Tomlinson, NFA FOCUS: The unwillingness to face and correct serious problems NOW is waht leads to disaster LATER. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 20:19:06 -0600 From: aplatt@qb.island.net (Alan Platt) Subject: Hi cap mags It is my understanding that a magazine is the sum of its parts. It then follows that a magazine body is, at best, just that and in fact is only a metal extrusion or tube (particularly if it is missing the base plate). The follower is a piece of plastic(or metal), the spring is just a spring and the base plate is just another piece of metal. The magazine has to be an assembly of the above parts in order to function as a magazine. Dave Tomlinson in a previous posting on this subject (what is a magazine?) did suggest that if the magazine (sans spring) was inserted into an upside down firearm it could be construed as feeding rounds into the firearm - but then why not just stuff the rounds directly into the butt and call the butt a magazine.(I am talking handguns) Whilst I haven't tried the above (nor do I want to) I think it would be a safe bet that you couldn't fire more than a couple of rounds let alone ten in a row without a jam.(what about the poor bugger trying to fire the gun in the first place, I can just picture, it a nice job for the boys from the ministry) There are plenty of metal tubes and boxes that could hold more than ten rounds passing through our borders daily. The customs officer mentioned in previous postings would have an extremely busy day if he applied his logic to all tubes that could hold more than ten rounds -as previously stated a magazine body is just a metal tube. Of course all of the above is based on rational thought which doesn't really apply to those who make up these dumb rules in the first place. Perhaps anyone out there from officialdum (CFC, Firearmsand Customs officers etc.) would like to apply their logic and refute the above. Alan Platt... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 22:22:14 -0600 From: KEARNS & McMURCHY Subject: Hollowpoint Ammo in Canada Canadian law specifically prohibits the import of hollowpoint PISTOL ammunition. If for example you were to import 3,000 rounds of .357 Magnum Hollowpoint RIFLE ammunition, (exactly the same thing) it would be allowed in. The fact that it could chamber and fire in a pistol does not seem to bother anyone. We sell 38 Special ++P Hollowpoint Ammunition in their original Federal pistol boxes, but specify they are to be used in rifles only. (We bought 5,000 rounds from the West Vancouver Police Department a year ago). Your question to Dave is an easy one. If you buy hollowpoint bullets and load them into your own cartridges they are legal. If you buy factory loaded hollowpoint pistol cartridges, you are a criminal... You figure the logic.... I certainly can't.... We recently imported Lake City Arsenal armour piercing 30-06 ammo with the blessing of the explosives branch.... no problem. At the same time we also imported 8mm Mauser ammo made in Bulgaria..... big problem... they wanted chemical tests done at our expense, but finally relented and let the ammo in after a lot of (now usual) K & McM bitching and shouting..... fortunately they aren't like Kustoms.... Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 22:22:15 -0600 From: KEARNS & McMURCHY Subject: British Pistol Prohibitions I just returned from the U.K. and the pistol laws are really crazy. The private owners receive a generous buyout, lots more than market value. Dealers have to provide copies of their purchase invoices and receive a small percentage above their purchase price. Some owners are choosing to have their guns deactivated rather than turn them in. Have you ever seen a Colt Python deactivated, specially to Brit deac standards.... Beautiful Mauser Broomhandles, mint, with wooden shoulder stocks are being cut... really quite depressing. The supply of illegal smuggled guns has never been better. To illustrate that our bureaucrats are no more stupid than theirs. A man in Scotland had an unpapered shotgun, clearly illegal, and wished to dispose of it. A government sponsored amnistice was due to start two days later, when police called at a house down the street on an unrelated matter. Our public spirited citizen figured this was the ideal opportunity to hand over the shotgun to the uniformed officers, and was mildly surprised when he was handcuffed arrested and charged with possession of an illegal weapon. He quite happily went to court, believing the judge would recognise his good intentions, after all the amnistice started within two days of his arrest.... No such luck.... a really stiff fine, and a criminal record. What these stupid bureacrats did by their actions was to prevent any further good spirited people from turning in their illegal guns. (There must be a government sponsored course in stupidity in the U.K., guess ours will adopt it as a brilliant idea in a few years time, as usual!!). There are no good pistols at the gun auctions. Why should there be. A rusted worn out Colt 1911A1 will bring close to $700 CDN. It doesn't have to make sense, the government thought of it!! Did buy some nice full auto's though, and a couple of beautiful L42 sniper rifles, (already sold). The Brits are using their government money to buy good quality long range varmint, target, and sniper rifles. I figure if I were their government I would rather they kept the pistols. The Brits have finally discovered reloading and are turning to it as a source for ammo. No doubt the bootleg price for fired Brit army brass will rise as the demand for .223 and .308's increases. They just don't think..... Doesn't it sound familiar..... Cretin could have dreamed up their legislation......... Keep yer powder dry.... Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 05:29:01 -0600 From: Karen & Jerrold Lundgard Subject: Re: Guns in Victoria >Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:06:04 -0600 >From: "Marauder (D. Kratky)" >Subject: Guns in Victoria > >Another interesting note on the Victoria Site: >Apparently they don't care whether you or the gun is registered >already.. >"...Cheques will be issued on the spot, no questions asked." They have just created an instant market for stolen firearms and are encouraging theft of legally held firearms by not asking questions. This implys it is acceptable to steal a gun and sell it to the government. The government may be "fencing" stolen firearms. Jerrold Peace River, Alberta, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 06:05:09 -0600 From: "Glenn Springer" Subject: Re: Storage Questions > Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 07:28:28 -0600 > From: > Subject: Storage > > I know I have read the answer before but I need refreshing so please > bear with me: > > Several ranchers in my area have had their stock harassed by dogs. > By the time I get my 12 gauge out and loaded they are gone. If I am > on horseback I have my 30.30 Win. lever action as a saddle gun and > handling any threat to my herd is straight forward. I have the Win. > with me, loaded, it is not stored so I assume I am in compliance > with the laws. Yes. > Question: May I keep a firearm concealed, trigger locked and > unloaded near my back door so I can grab it, load it and handle the > marauders? I have no children, would remove it when friends with > children visit Yes. In fact, you may keep it unlocked, ammunition nearby but not with or in the firearm, for the temporary period when the predator threat exists, assuming you are in an area where firearms can legally be discharged. > Question: > > I have my firearms stored in a glass enclosed gun case with an "O" > ring bolted to the inside back panel thru which passes a large cable > that passes thru each trigger guard and is locked. My house has a > monitored burglar alarm system. They are inaccessible to anyone > when I am home --visiting friends curious children and with the > monitored system the police would be here very quickly at any > attempt at house break-in as would four of my neighbors. I believe > my storage system is more than adequate. > Yes again. Only comment is that common sense says the firearms should not be visible from outside. Glenn Springer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:50:57 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Alberta Machine Gun Shoot (Part 1 of 2) Today's the day. The Northern Alberta Don Cassel Machine Gun Shoot will roar. (The Southern one comes later.) Don Cassel was a full auto collector and experimenter. Few people will ever forget the time he turned up at a shoot with a Japanese Type 99 MG (originally, it came in 7.7mm and looked vaguely like a Bren gun -- you know, 30 shot curved magazine on top, bipod halfway along the barrel tacked onto the end of the gas cylinder, pistol grip hanging down and wooden stock). By the time Don was ready to shoot it, it was feeding .308/7.62X51mm NTAO out of an M-14 magazine, and wearing a Canadian FN FAL military C2A1 (heavy) barrel. Somehow, the long Japanese rifle bayonet still fitted on it -- and it was wearing one. It worked quite well. But then, ALL Don's modifications -- at least the ones he brought out to shoot -- worked quite well. I once told Don about a "deactivated" Madsen machine gun (in 6.5mm, of all calibres) that I looked over in a military surplus store. It had a steel plug in the chamber, which had then been welded into place, but seemed to have no other deactivation. Don hotfooted it down and bought the gun. As he told me later, he disassembled it and confirmed my diagnosis. Then he dropped a cleaning rod down the barrel, intending to measure the length of the steel plug. Tink! The plug fell out. Nearly ALL of the weld was ON THE PLUG. There was a tiny rough place left on the breech face, which Don polished out in two minutes work with a Dremel Moto-Tool, leaving that delightful old piece of history complete, functional, and fully oprational. I THINK he got it registered... He did do that with SOME of his many machine guns, I know. It was Don who taught me why the Germans called the Lewis gun "the Belgian rattlesnake." When you hear it firing from in FRONT of it, it DOES sound like a rattlesnake. Something to do with that 4-inch pipe ahead of the muzzle... (The departing bullet and gases pass for a short distance through the 4-inch pipe that surrounds the barrel. As they go forward, they SUCK air from the breech end of the pipe into the pipe, ALONG the aluminum fins, and out the muzzle end for cooling. Very cute. That cooling system adds a few pounds to the gun, and does not work. Strip it off, and the gun heats up at the same rate as one with it on.) The only time I ever taught Don anything was the day he was cursing a rusty old Browning Automatic Rifle. The spring was weak, and it was failing to feed with monotonous regularity. I went back to my car, and reappeared carrying a spring. Don installed it, and all his problems vanished. "What in blazes were you doing with a BAR spring? You don't have a BAR." "It's not a BAR spring. It's the mainspring out of a .303 Browning MG." Don had HUNDREDS of Browning springs at home, and had not thought to try one. AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGHHHH! In those days, the .303 Brownings had just been scrapped by our witless government. The government sold them (and the Stens, .50 Aircraft Brownings, and a few other goodies) to the scrapyards for the price of scrap steel. Scrapyards are smarter than our government. They sold the guns to dealers at $5 per gun, who sold them to collectors at $40 per gun (more if they had NOT been deactivated by sloppy workmen). [continued in Part 2 of 2] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:50:59 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Alberta Machine Gun Shoot [part 2 of 2] Many of those deactivated guns were soon alive and kicking again. In those days, you could buy every part except the receiver for most common machine guns for about $45. SOME of them were then registered -- but a lot of those owners were afraid that government would confiscate their toys if they brought them in for registration. And, in many cases, they would have. The "danger" inherent in allowing peole to own machine guns -- and the fact that many DO own (horrors!) UNREGISTERED machine guns is well illustrated by the fact that not ONE of those guns -- legally OR illegally owned -- has been used in ANY crime of violence in Canada. As a matter of fact, there have been only TWO crimes of violence in Canada where full automatic firearms have been used -- and in BOTH, the guns have been guns owned by the government and in the hands of the people that the government gave legal, unsupervised access to those guns. So -- there is a MUCH better case for disarming government employees than there is for disarming gun collectors. Hmmmm... But -- I digress. This morning, I must list all the guns that show up (and I NEVER know what 's going to turn up THIS time!). Then I must assemble the program -- Bring out the oldest gun, shooter standing there with the gun while I give a brief talk on what it is, how it fits into history, etc. Then he fires the gun, to the accompanyment of ooohs and ahhhhhhs from the audience. Next gun! Do it again! It is fun to make up ad hoc lectures -- no time for making notes or research - -- and explain each gun's place in history and its importance to the whole spectrum of firearms design, historical use, etc., etc. I will never forget the year we had FOUR MG-42s on the program. All firing one 250-roundl belt each -- simultaneously. Three set up as infantry guns, firing from the bipod; one on the tripod, with the shooter squinting through its double-right-angle scope sight. 1200 bullets per minute (that's 20 per second, for those who don't have their calculators handy) EACH. (Did you know that under our current witless laws, those shooting Sten guns are limited to 5-shot magazines, but those shooting belt-fed guns can still use 250-round belts? One can only shake one's head and wonder...) A single MG-42 sounds rather like ripping the world's toughest canvas. Four of them at once requires GOOD ear protection. After the demonstration, the audience get to shoot -- Yep, that's legal, as long as the owner is supervising the shooter. Whee! If the Liberals get their way, this will be our LAST full auto shoot. As we learned at the NFA-CFC [Canadian Firearms Centre] shoot, they are so determined to eliminate this lesson in history that they plan to issue an Order in Council to prevent storage of any full auto (or any other "prohibited firearm" such as an FN FAL) at a shooting range, for fear someone might actually (horrors!) be able to fire a few rounds out of it at a paper target. If they can force us to keep it at home, then the new system of making Permits to Transport unavailable will prevent us from taking them anywhere that they might be (shudder!) actually fired. Fortunately, the NFA has court plans for that situation. If we win (and we have a good chance of doing so, because the CFC is VERY weak on understanding administrative and regulatory law), then many of the manuals and training videos now being prepared by the CFC are going to be sudedenly obsolete. Except, of course, for old Jimmy. His home IS a shooting range, and he long ago carefully set up his range so that he can shoot out the window on rainy days. Yes, Murgatroyd, there are some advantages to being a bachelor. One never really understands the marvelous simplicity of the bachelor's life until one finds the tea bag in his electric kettle. Dave Tomlinson, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:51:03 -0600 From: Larry Going Subject: I'm on holiday I'll be away on holidays until July 27. If you have any questions regarding the NFA Annual General Meeting (Oct. 4th and 5th in Saskatoon), please send your questions to: Skeeter Abell-Smith ab133@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca -- Larry J. Going Sask. Pres., NFA Phone: 306-694-4168 Fax: 306-691-0271 ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #907 **********************************