From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Tue Jul 15 06:41:15 1997 From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #909 Content-Length: 27543 X-Lines: 651 Status: RO Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, July 15 1997 Volume 01 : Number 909 In this issue: Small Handguns, Dancing on the Head of a Pin (Part 2 of 2) 12 ga slugs Re: 12 ga slugs NFA Merchandise Winners Re: How the law applies to me if..... Re: Alberta Machine Gun Shoot Leupold and Full Auto Re: Australian Health Care paying for Gun Ban Losing digests.... Re: .50 BMG Re: Small Handguns Re: How The Law Applies To Me....(Part 1 of 2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:59:59 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Small Handguns, Dancing on the Head of a Pin (Part 2 of 2) Since John meets all the criteria specified in FA s. (12), and his .32 calibre Walther Model PP meets the criteria of CC s. 84(1), John's continuing possession of his Walther is legal, and the system MUST issue him a license to "acquire and possess any prohibited firearms referred to in [FA s. 12(6)] that are acquired by the holder on or AFTER the commencement day [when C-68 is proclaimed]." Note that it is utterly irrelevant that the Walther PP was not registered to John at any time PRIOR to John's acquisition of it on 14 Jul 97, or that John did not possess an SHG between the dates 15 Feb 95 and 14 Jul 97. It is the Walther ITSELF that qualifies John under FA s. 12(6)(b) AND (c). It is quite relevant that FRAS probably cannot PROVE that the Walther PP was NOT registered on 14 Feb 95. If is WAS, then the firearm is fine for the transfer to John; and FRAS may have had it registered it in any one of several fashions back then. Make Model Calibre Serial number Walther PP .32 1088282 Walther Police Pistol .32 ACP 1088282 Walter Pocket 7.65mm 10088282 Waffenfabrik Walther 765mm 108282 The above erorrs are examples of how registration cerificates sometimes (fairly often, actually) get issued in "fouled" condition that prevents their being found -- even though they ARE in the FRAS system. Remember: A computer ONLY hunts for EXACTLY what you TOLD it to hunt for. If you make an error in specifying the "search object" or the "search object" is wrongly identified in the FRAS file -- FRAS CANNOT FIND IT. My analysis is, apparently, rather different than the understanding that the RCMP were working under when they wrote "NOTICE TO PROSPECTIVE HANDGUN PURCHASERS." I therefore call upon the Canadian Firearms Centre to examine the DETAILS of this area of law, and state clearly whether or not the above analysis of the requirements is accurate in a posting to CFD as soon as possible. It should not take the CFD long to respond to that request. The law, as I have detailed it above, seems quite clear. This area of law will give rise to extensive litigation. The government must prove that an applicant did NOT qualify as one who "held a registration certificate under the Former Act for one or more [SHGs]." As I have shown above, the FRAS registration records contain SHGs that were not registered in a fashion that made it obvious that they were SHGs, as well as being registered in ways that preclude FRAS from FINDING the old early-1995 record. Note also that the firearm system apparently cannot print out a list of every firearm that was registered ON 14 Feb 95, regardless of when they were ENTERED into the system. The records have changed sindce 14 Feb 95, and records that are in a continuous state of flux are VERY difficult to pin down on a particular date. Note also that a 'snapshot' taken by making a disk of all data in the files on 14 Feb 95 does NOT show the firearms that were being PROCESSED on that date. They had not yet been entered -- but the DID "grandfather" the people and firearms involved. Firearms that can introduce confusion into questions of eligibility include Dan Wesson revolvers (with quick-change barrels of various lengths), Browning Model 1923 semi-auto handguns (barrels over 105mm/4.14", with interchangeable .32 and .380 barrels), Heckler and Koch semi-auto handguns capable of discharging .22, .25, .32 and .380 cartridges, any short-barrelled semi-auto handgun for which a barrel longer than 105mm/4.14" was available or could have been manufactured by a gunsmith, any semi-auto or revolver for which a .25 or .32 barrel was available or could have been made by a gunsmith, etc., etc. This is an area where the accuracy of FRAS records for 14 Feb 95 will be called into account in the courts. The NFA has plenty of evidence that the FRAS records are riddled with errors; and it is probable that any attempt by FRAS to claim that someone did NOT possess an SHG on 14 Feb 97 will run into BIG problems when an appeal against refusal of an FA s. 12(6) license goes to court under FA s. 74 to 76, "References to Provincial Court Judge." There should be little toruble in persuading a provincial court judge that FRAS records are entirely unreliable -- particularly when FRAS is trying to "prove" that no such record has ever been in the FRAS files. There is quite adequate proof that FRAS fouls up regularly -- as in the Constable Mark Smith case in NB. There, a FRAS witness swore under oath that the firearm in question had never been seen by the FRAS record system - -- in spite of the fact that it had been reported to FRAS by five retailers and one applicant to register. It was IN their files -- but FRAS could not FIND it. That is a VERY common problem with FRAS. A misspelling of a name can cause it. A typographical error -- made by the applicant, the firearms officer or the FRAS clerk -- can cause it. Have you heard about the guy who refused to sign "NOTICE TO PROSPECTIVE HANDGUN OWNERS"? He inisited that they check his FRAS records, which would show that he already possessed several SHGs. FRAS printed out a list of his holdings, cricled the first "SHG" and faxed the list to the local firearms officer, who laughed immoderately. FRAS "grandfathered" him on a typographical error, citing an FN FAL rifle in Caibre 7.62mm with a barrel length of "53mm." The actual barrel length on that RIFLE is 533mm. Dave Tomlinson, NFA FOCUS: Examine your memory and your history. If YOU had an SHG on 14 Feb 95, and have one on "commencement day," YOU are a "grandfathered" person, eligible for a license to "acquire3 and possess" as many SHGs as you want. You do NOT have to have a record of your ownership of an SHG on 14 Feb 95. If you had one back then, and sold it soon after 14 Feb 97, and then, two years later, destroyed your OWN records of that firearm, you have acted within the limits of both the law and the regulations. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:00:08 -0600 From: Rick Hardy Subject: 12 ga slugs Hi There; Looking for info on shotgun slugs: i) Is rifled slug more effective in open choke than unrifled slug? ii)Commercial rifled slug has nylon "insert" in hollow base. What is the purpose? Can it be replaced with "shot-buffer" etc? iii) Is the "roll-crimp" essential or can an "unrifled slug" be loaded with a shorter wad column and star-crimped to 2 3/4"? - -- Rick Hardy NFA/ Upper Canada ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:00:00 -0600 From: Robin Leech Subject: Re: 12 ga slugs I have a Winchester 101 (i.e., over-under), 32 inch bbls, both full choke. Rifled slugs definitely shoot better than unrifled slugs (and, I suggest that that is the reason that you can now buy a rifled shotgun). It is my experience that you have to roll crimp, else any wad pressure will put pressure on the centre of the crimp (where the front of the slug will put pressure, and, in due course of time, you will find the slug popping out of the hull. The purpose of the nylon base it to keep the slug from becoming too deformed upon firing. Robin Leech (Edmonton, Alberta) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:15:31 -0600 From: remington.nevin@utoronto.ca Subject: NFA Merchandise Winners The latest winners of the NFA Merchandise draw for subscribers to the cdn-firearms-digest are: Philip Gray Russel L. Pfeifer W.W. Shewchuk If you are one of the winners, simply email me with your choice of prize and a mailing address to which your prize can be sent. This month's winners can select either an NFA five-colour cap pin or an NFA five-colour sewn crest. These and other NFA items can be purchased by visiting http://www.nfa.ca/merchandise/ Full contest details are posted at http://www.nfa.ca/subscribe/contest.html Good luck in our next draw in about two to three weeks time! - --- Remington Nevin NFA Web Site Maintainer remington.nevin@utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:20:16 -0600 From: KEARNS & McMURCHY Subject: Re: How the law applies to me if..... I have questions about the following text, and have entered them after the sections that I need explanations about. Please reply in writing, outlining the reasons for your answers etc... (I am an NFA representative and as such am required to explain parts of the new law).....Peter Kearns > > How The Law Applies to Me If... > > I AM A GUN COLLECTOR > > The rules on gun collecting apply to restricted firearms and to > "grandfathered" prohibited handguns with barrel lengths of 105 mm > or less, and to grandfathered prohibited handguns of 25 and 32 > calibre. For ease of reference, these categories are referred to > in this fact sheet as grandfathered handguns. > > The new legislation recognizes that collecting firearms is a > legitimate reason for owning these firearms. Every five years, > individuals will have to establish that they are gun collectors ****How? > and that the firearms are kept for collection purposes. ****How? And what are the parameters? This > will prevent abuse of the system by persons who, claiming to be gun > collectors, keep a gun for an illegitimate purpose. ******What kind of "illegitimate" purpose? Who defines what an illegitimate purpose is? Is it to commit crime? If so how would such people manage to beat the security checks when applying for their licences? People who > cease to collect handguns and who do not use them for target > shooting or for other legitimate purposes will have to transfer, > export or deactivate their firearms. *****Who decides that they have ceased to collect? Who decides that someone is not doing enough shooting to qualify as a target shooter? What are the parameters? Who sets them up? Who are they accountable to? Who sets the deactivation standards? (Remember the Guidelines/ Standards for Deactivation have no standing in law) > > In order to collect grandfathered handguns, an individual must > have legally owned at least one such handgun on or before > February 14, 1995. Why? I have owned many short barreled pistols, but had none in my possession on the "magic" date. Why am I excluded? Different eligibility dates apply for all other > classes of grandfathered firearms, please contact the Canadian > Firearms Centre or your local firearms officer for more information. > All grandfathered individuals will be allowed to transfer firearms > to or from individuals with firearms in the same category. How can they transfer an FN when permits to transport will no longer be issued? (This to be part of the omnibus order in council planned for Sept 1997). You can't transfer something if you do not have a permit to transport it. Is this a Catch 22 situation? > > In order to qualify as a gun collector, a person must amongst other > things be knowledgeable about the historical, technical or > scientific characteristics of the firearms that are to be part of a > collection. Who judges this? From my experience with CFC and other parts of both regulatory and enforcement, their knowledge is limited. So who among you is qualified to administer the test, and make a fair impartial judgement? Is this one more of the things that will be taken care of after the bill is brought into law? EXAMPLE..I study the engineering of the arms, so know very little about their historical significance, my neighbour collects Mauser Broomhandles and is only interested in the shoulder stocks and their variations....... who tests us?????? > > Collectors must register their firearms as being part of a gun > collection and must consent to reasonable periodic inspections of > that part of the premises where the collection is stored. *****How often? Gun > collectors must also abide by safe storage, display, handling and > transportation standards. ******Does that mean they don't now? > > All owners of handguns including collectors, must keep restricted > firearms in a secure container or room and they must protect them > with a locking device, unless the restricted firearm is kept in a > vault, safe or secure room built or modified for firearms storage. > ***** I use a 4 foot long by 2 foot six inch wide by 2 foot deep 1/8 inch steel box to store pistols. Does this qualify as safe storage?? > Under the existing law, prohibited handguns and long guns which > form part of a gun collection may be kept by collectors with > grandfathered rights. As part of a firearms collection, > prohibited firearms are treated as restricted firearms. When the > new law comes into effect, owners of prohibited firearms will as a > general rule, be able to keep their firearms for life even if they > cease to be collectors. ****I find your reference to "general rule" unsettling. What are the exceptions?? (Different rules apply to grandfathered > handguns.) These firearms will be exempt from the rules that apply > specifically to gun collections. (For more information, see the > fact sheet: I own grandfathered prohibited firearms - available > 1-800-731-4000) > > Provisions within the new firearms legislation concerning gun > collectors are not yet in force. ****Please explain how you can backdate a law that is not yet in force?? For example the rule about short barreled handgun possession on Feb 14th to ensure "grandfathering". You are saying that we must abide by what is not yet a law, and it will be retroactive.... do you honestly believe this will stand up under a legal challenge??? (I know you are a lawyer..... remember I met you......) These provisions are expected to > come into force in 1998. Information related to registering a > firearm as part of a gun collection will be made available to the > general public through newspapers, brochures, the 1-800 enquiries > centre, and the Canadian Firearms Centre internet site prior to the > changes coming into force. ****What will happen to people who do not use the media you itemise above??? For instance, I talked to an Inuit customer a few days ago and he knows absolutely nothing about the new laws. How will he behave when we refuse to sell him ammunition because he obviously does not have an FAC or licence??? Please answer the above and I will publish your response on the Canadian Firearms Digest. By doing this I will help you achieve your mandated goals to communicate the new laws.......regards.......Peter > For general information call 1-800-731-4000 or visit our internet > site http://canada.justice.gc.ca > > Updated 2/14/97 and 7/14/97 > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:20:21 -0600 From: SBKracer Subject: Re: Alberta Machine Gun Shoot > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:50:57 -0600 > From: "David A. Tomlinson" > Subject: Alberta Machine Gun Shoot > > Today's the day. The Northern Alberta Don Cassel Machine Gun Shoot will > roar. (The Southern one comes later.) August 10 if my calendar is correct. Down near Brooks. > If the Liberals get their way, this will be our LAST full auto shoot. > And I like NOT to miss it. Can you give me some info regarding the location and planned activities. Is it worth bringing a few boxes of 5.56 or 7.62? ie. are owners willing to let civvies "test fire"? What about the other mag fed guns like AK's and M-16's are they also limited to 5 rd mags? > A single MG-42 sounds rather like ripping the world's toughest canvas. > You got that right, I was fortunate enough to get to fire one about ten years ago and is an experience I will NEVER forget. > After the demonstration, the audience get to shoot -- Yep, that's legal, as > long as the owner is supervising the shooter. Whee! Oh goody goody goody! Did I mention how much I love Alberta?! Peter Cronhelm Black and Green, Carbon Fibre Racing Machine SBKracer In parts at the moment but soon to race again. "I'm not the man you say I am, not radical nor mentally deranged." - -Sons of Freedom- "Without the threat of death, what's the point in living at all!" - -Marilyn Manson- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:37:15 -0600 From: mtoma Subject: Leupold and Full Auto Sorry folks, I was wrong about Leupold fixing the older friction adjustments to click adjustments free of charge. It was their policy last year but now they only do it if a scope comes in and needs a new tube for example. Thats the best answer I could get talking to the Leupold Tech girl today. Concerning the full auto 7.62/.308 in military rifles. During a brief stint in darkest Africa, well the sun was mostly bright and hot, I had no trouble getting off a perfect "double tap" with my FN set on Full Auto, and keeping both shots two to six inches apart on a sil at 20-25 yards. Yes, the gun would quickly walk with long bursts but anyone who needs to start at the ankle has not practiced enough. As I have mentioned in past comments, the police are not expert marksman, nor is 99% of the military, full auto or otherwise. The basic qualification course of police or military is designed such that anyone knowing which way is downrange and can see the sights on his gun can pass the course. Neither of these groups practice at all during the year except during the qualification warm up phase. They then pass. Such a skill level is only a starting point, and hardly defines any sort of expert. Real skill with a firearm demands constant practice. Yes the USA has gone to a 3 shot burst feature on their M16s. Tests have shown that it takes about 3 seconds to empty a 30 round magazine on full auto. It takes only 4-5 seconds to empty it on 3 round burst. What is needed is marksmanship training on full and semi auto fire. In a close range ambush, the more rounds put in the direction of the enemy when you cannot see him, the better. This serves to keep the enemies heads down at least while you make your way out of the ambush zone. Usually, but not always in the direction of the enemy. Bob Lickacz, spot on, of course the postcard system is only to get you to admit you own firearms. What better way to discriminate against an identifiable group than to have them mail in a slip with their name and address on it. Yes, it is about registering/targeting people not guns. Not one to even think about encouraging the defiance of any law, but would it not be way cool if nobody complied with putting the noose around their necks? Does anyone think for one minute that this site is not monitored by someone from the Federal Justice Dept.???? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:32:44 -0600 From: "Marauder (D. Kratky)" Subject: Re: Australian Health Care paying for Gun Ban > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:08:30 -0600 > From: "Greg Sheppard" > Subject: Re: Victorian Firearms Banning Site > (We haven't had the heart to tell them yet about the cache of Owen gun > (SMG) magazines about to come up. At the current rate of $80 each, the > owner is due for about $5.2 MILLION!). :( At the tax payers expense... How often have you heard "BUT IF IT ONLY SAVES ONE LIFE!!" so far?? Interesting it's a health care tax that's paying for it, nes pas?? D. Kratky Ontario NFA Member AOU BBS: (519) 928-2369 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:32:48 -0600 From: "Marauder (D. Kratky)" Subject: Losing digests.... Just curious: Anyone else having problems with copies of the digest not getting thru to you?? (Reply to marauder@heawaters.com please.) [Moderator: I would like to hear of any problems myself. ] D. Kratky Ontario NFA Member AOU BBS: (519) 928-2369 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:32:52 -0600 From: "Marauder (D. Kratky)" Subject: Re: .50 BMG > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:17:05 -0600 > From: mtoma > Subject: Leupold Scopes > Still working on the .50BMG info. I will have something soon. .50BMG the > ultimate long range cartridge. Oh, I dunno.. I hear Barett (sp?) is working on a 20mm rifle... And how about the AMAC in 14.5 russian?? Always wanted to try firing one of the "Big .50's" but of course, the nasty feds took them all. Incidentally, a friend of mine found dozens of empty .50 BMG casings in one of our local gravel pits a few months ago, when he went out to shoot. :)) Wonder how those got there?? D. Kratky Ontario NFA Member AOU BBS: (519) 928-2369 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:32:54 -0600 From: "Marauder (D. Kratky)" Subject: Re: Small Handguns > Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:59:47 -0600 > From: "David A. Tomlinson" > Subject: Small Handguns, Dancing on the Head of a Pin (Part 1 of 2) > (b) is designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre > cartridge, A few things that come to mind: A) Does this mean if I have a handgun in .32, and comvert it to .22, it's still prohibted? After all, it was DESIGNED for .32.....??? B) Does this cover such things as .25-06 and other rifle catridge handguns? (.32 H&R?) C) Is the BARREL now a "prohibited weapon" like 6+ round magazines are? D) One much wonder: If the gov't is SOOOO concerned about those evil handguns: Why didn't they prohibit .22 pistols. D. Kratky Ontario NFA Member AOU BBS: (519) 928-2369 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:32:57 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Re: How The Law Applies To Me....(Part 1 of 2) LATEST FROM THE CANADIAN FIREARMS CENTRE WITH NFA COMMENT: >How The Law Applies to Me If... I AM A GUN COLLECTOR >The rules on gun collecting apply to restricted firearms and to >"grandfathered" prohibited handguns with barrel lengths of 105 mm >or less, and to grandfathered prohibited handguns of 25 and 32 >calibre. For ease of reference, these categories are referred to >in this fact sheet as grandfathered handguns. Interesting. Does this imply that the "rules on gun collecting" do NOT apply to the other 4 categories of "prohibited firearm"? If it means that, then we can expect early confiscation of 4 more categories of firearm. >The new legislation recognizes that collecting firearms is a >legitimate reason for owning these firearms. Every five years, >individuals will have to establish that they are gun collectors >and that the firearms are kept for collection purposes. This >will prevent abuse of the system by persons who, claiming to be gun >collectors, keep a gun for an illegitimate purpose. Just what is "an illegitimate purpose"? People who keep firearms to commit violent crimes do not register them, because a registered gun lost during the commission of a crime would identify the owner. It would appear that this is a "gimmick" designed to confiscate any firearm that MIGHT be used to PROTECT human life from criminal violence, but NOT to confiscate any firearm that might be used to commit "criminal violence" crimes. The social result of denying citizens the right to protect the lives of themselves and their families from criminal violence are well known, worldwide. It INCREASES criminal violence, by guaranteeing the safety of the criminal and thereby encouraging his criminal activity. Differing nations differ in many ways, so it is NOT possible to say, "This country has THIS firearms control system, and THAT is what determines its violent crime levels." Differences in societal structure, legal systems, police operating rules, legislation, climate and many other factors strongly influence violent crime rates. Therefore, to study the effects of firearms control legislation, it is necessary to study the SAME population BEFORE and AFTER a change in the firearms control system. to see how it changes and by how much. When THAT is done -- in accordance with the rules of good statistical practice -- the results are not encouraging. Simply put, disarming only the victims does NOT decrease violent crime, and disarming the criminals is something NO society has yet figured out how to to. >People who >cease to collect handguns and who do not use them for target >shooting or for other legitimate purposes will have to transfer, >export or deactivate their firearms. Does that mean that if a collector ceases to ACQUIRE more firearms he or she is deemed to "cease to collect handguns"? That the firearms of a seriously ill target shooter will be taken from him or her? Since when has the government been given authority by the voters to decide such matters FOR us? Are we all children or senile, unable to handle our own affairs? >In order to collect grandfathered handguns, an individual must >have legally owned at least one such handgun on or before >February 14, 1995. WRONG. He or she must have POSSESSED, not OWNED -- a different matter -- either one REGISTERED "such handgun" ON 14 Feb 95, OR have applied to register one before 14 Feb 95 and had a registration certificate for it issued AFTER 14 Feb 95. Get it RIGHT, CFC, or DO NOT PUBLISH! That is also INCOMPLETE. If a person met the criteria in the above paragraph, that person could then, on any day AFTER 14 Feb 95, have disposed of THAT firearm, acquired ANOTHER such firearm on any day BEFORE the day C-68 comes into force, and be "grandfathered" by that combination of POSSESSION on those two critical dates. UNDERSTAND what the law actually SAYS before you PUBLISH, CFC! >Different eligibility dates apply for all other >classes of grandfathered firearms, please contact the Canadian >Firearms Centre or your local firearms officer for more information. >All grandfathered individuals will be allowed to transfer firearms >to or from individuals with firearms in the same category. >In order to qualify as a gun collector, a person must amongst other >things be knowledgeable about the historical, technical or >scientific characteristics of the firearms that are to be part of a >collection. Note the powerful effect that the word "OR" has in that sentence. The word "and" in that position would have quite different effect. When reading firearms law, ALWAYS look very carefully at the effects of "and" and "or." [Continued in Part 2 of 2] ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #909 **********************************