From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sat Jul 19 12:41:06 1997 From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #912 Content-Length: 23995 X-Lines: 588 Status: RO Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, July 19 1997 Volume 01 : Number 912 In this issue: Re: The Halton Witch Hunt [Part 2 of 2] Halton Region Update The .35 Whelan and moose The Halton Witch Hunt Collections Re: 35 Whelan U.S handgun sales National Firearms License Plates Fw: Re: surplus monkey problem 1997 IPSC Ontario Provincial Championships Second machine-gun killing in Canada Postcard registration .35 Whelan ballistics the CSE unofficial webpage ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:12:25 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Re: The Halton Witch Hunt [Part 2 of 2] >> >>If you are, or know, a victim of the HRP witch hunt, you need the following >>information: >> >>1. You have a good defence agains the charges. Simply give the above >>information to your lawyer. Unless the victim admits that he or she did NOT >>take out the required PTT, the HRP have no case -- because they cannot PROVE >>that the victim did NOT do everything that was required. IF police or >>Canada Post screwed up, THAT is the reason the owner has no paper. The >>owner cannot generate the new registration certificate HIMSELF -- he must >>wait for FRAS to generate it and Canada Post to deliver it. Most firearms >>owners are aware that FRAS is often SLOW -- so waiting a YEAR or more for >>new paper from FRAS alarms no one. FRAS is OFTEN that slow. >> >>2. IF you still have a copy of the PTT to take your firearm to the new >>address, you are home free. That PROVES it was THEIR error. If YOU have >>such a document, PLEASE photocopy it, along with a copy of the charges >>against you, and send it to NFA, Box 1779, EDMONTON AB, T5J 2P1. We will >>blank out your name and address, and supply copies to others who did not >>keep a copy of their PTTs -- getting THEM out of trouble by PROVING that the >>HRP do not know what they are talking about. >> >>3. If you have ALREADY told the police that you did not get a PTT, but >>relied on your PTC and thought that was good enough, SURPRISE! You are >>right, and they are wrong. The charge is Criminal Code section [CC s.] >>91(2), "possession of a restricted weapon elsewhere than at the place at >>which he is entitled to possess it, as indicated on the registration >>certificate..." >> >>4. There is an EXCEPTION ot CC s. 91(2) IN s. 91(2), which says, "unless he >>is the holder of a permit under which he may lawfully so possess it..." If >>you have a valid PTC, that is a permit covering your "possession" of the >>firearm "elsewhere than at the place at which [you are] entitled to possess >>it as indicated on the registration certificate." >> >>5. This is a tricky point created by murkily-worded law. The exception >>covers you WHETHER OR NOT the PTC authorizes you to have it at the new >>address, BECAUSE THE WORDS INDICATE THAT IT IS THE POSSESSION OF A PERMIT >>"under which he may lawfully [possess a restricted weapon ELSEWHERE than at >>the place at which he is entitled to possess it, as indicated on the >>registration certificate]..." that entitles you to the exception, NOT a >>permit "under which he may lawfully possess it [AT some particular place]." >> >>Case in point: The NFA has a transcript of the decision in a case where a >>handgun, loaned at the shootig range, was covered for TWO YEARS of >>possession by the possessor's PTC, in spite of the fact that the possessor >>had not document that APPARENTLY covered that situation at all. >> >>RULES FOR PERSON CHARGED, THREATENED, OR BEING BULLIED BY FIREARMS CONTROL >>AUTHORITIES: >> >>1. Shut UP! You are quite likely to get yourself into much DEEPER problems >>and much more SERIOUS charges by TALKING TO THE POLICE. You have an >>ABSOLUTE right to REMAIN SILENT. So DO that. REMAIN SILENT. Firearms >>control law is MUCH too complex for the average person to understand whether >>he has or HAS NOT committed any crime, and ANY information given to a police >>officer CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU. Do NOT get sucked in by helpful >>offers to "clear this all up" if you "explain." Shut UP, and STAY SILENT. >>Your ONLY words should be, "I refuse to say ANYTHING until I have talked to >>my lawyer." And if your lawyer tells you to do ANYTHING but REMAIN SILENT, >>get a new lawyer who is not a fool. >> >>2. Call the NFA for help [(403)439-1394, fax: (403)439-4091]. It is free. >> >>3. Do NOT sign ANYTHING. >> >>Dave Tomlinson, NFA >> >>FOCUS: Firearms law is so complex and badly written that there is a valid >>defence for nearly anything -- and the NFA knows that defence. FIRST find >>out whether or not you are guilty of ANYTHING -- and NEVER take the word of >>a police officer or firearms control official that you are. Taylor and/or Jennifer Buckner, 2015 Gingras, Brigham, QC J0E 1J0 Phone & Fax: (514) 293-4835 e-mail Research Papers: ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:52:34 -0600 From: Larry Whitmore Subject: Halton Region Update Further to the reports on the Halton Region 'Witch Hunt', here is a factual update on the situation. Halton Regional Police, in comparing their data base with FRAS, found 500 restricted firearms at the wrong address. It seem a number of people moved their residences without obtaining the proper transport permits. As a result, and obviously with too much time on their hands, the police decided to 'make examples' of a few people to entice others to correct their paperwork. During the week of June 23, they executed 12 search warrants, seized firearms from 10 people as well as charging them under section 91(2). The police did, however, exercise their descretion and used what they call 'soft knocks'. They did not kick down the doors although even a soft knock accompanied by seizure of property and charges is very tramatic. The police admitted these were law abiding people and our question to them was 'then why are you making them criminals?'. Upon receiving this information, the Ontario Handgun Association immediately contacted the officers in charge and an agreement was reached to delay any further charges and warrants for a few weeks in order for notifications to be sent to our membership and anyone else we could contact through the clubs. The Burlington Rifle and Revolver Club was very helpful in this project. We were assured by the police that no charges would be laid if owners voluntarily came forward to make the necessary corrections. This is now what is happening. Due to the notices sent out by the OHA, Burlington Rifle and Revolver and limited reporting in the local papers, the registrar has been flooded with calls and corrections. The OHA is now taking steps to have the charges dropped for the 10 sacrifical lambs. If anyone residing in Halton Region has any questions about their paperwork, they should contact the registrar, Sherrie McAdam at 905-825-4711. This incident is just the tip of the iceberg. These complex regulations will make criminals out of all of us eventually. There was a couple of quotes in Western Reports recently that sums this all up: "The only thing that is keeping you out of jail is government goodwill." "The government has created a nation of paper criminals. People can be but in jail and lose civil rights and liberties through bureacratic procedures." Such is the state of democracy in a Liberal Canada. Larry Whitmore Executive Manager - Ontario Handgun Association Director - Shooting Federation of Canada ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:39:19 -0600 From: "Barry Glasgow" Subject: The .35 Whelan and moose In message "Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #911", >Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 04:50:55 -0600 >From: Dale Hainer >Subject: 35 Whelan > >Came across a 35 Whelan calibre. My books don't list this one although I >have heard of it. I don't see any major manufacturer producing ammo or even >a gun chambered for it. Someone recently made mentions of the 35 Whelan >being an acceptable or good Moose calibre. Any comments? Ballistical info? It's good to get away from talking to and about ignorant bureaucrats and to get back to what we really want to talk about. A friend of mine had a Remington semi-auto in .35 Whelen and I took a few shots with it. It was OK but nothing to get excited about. He had factory ammo for it (Remington, I believe) but you don't see it in the catalogues any more. You could probably order them from a dealer and the guy at LeBaron's here in Ottawa said he could probably track down a Remington 7400 (semi) or 700 (bolt action) in 35 Whelan but why bother ? The 350 Rem. Mag. suffers the same drawbacks. The Whelen is simply a 30-06 case necked out to take a .358 bullet and it will throw a heavier bullet (up to 250 grains) better than the 30-06. This alone would make it better for moose but any real difference in penetration and performance over the '06 with good bullets lies mostly in the realm of theory. For this reason, it's not really worth all the bother trying to a) find a rifle in this calibre and b) find a box of ammo when you've wasted all yours sighting in and the closest supplier is a general store in the middle of nowhere, 2 hours away. They probably cost more as well. If you're really hot and bothered about throwing large hunks of lead at moose (and I'm more in favour of good bullets - i.e Noslers - in common calibers like 7mm Mag or 300 Mag) then maybe the .338 Mag is for you. Stay away from the .35 Remington and .358 Winchester since both are on the anemic side (moreso the Remington) and can be hard to find (moreso the Winchester). Right now, Browning is about the only company offering magnum semi's but they are a couple of hundred dollars more and feel about as handy to carry around in the bush as a case of 24. With moose, your first shot is your best shot and they'll either drop on the spot or stand there wondering what the hell's going on so a BAR's really not an advantage and will only keep you from walking that extra kilometer that would have got you to your moose. And if you're a decent shot, milder recoiling rounds like the .308 and 30-06 are just fine on moose. As the late Jack O'Connor used to say, it not so much what you hit them with, it's where you hit them. Good luck and happy hunting. Barry Glasgow ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:39:23 -0600 From: Ron McCutcheon Subject: The Halton Witch Hunt >Have any charges been laid by Halton Region Police. >Media reports say yes, but facts beyond that are hard to come by yet. Yes. A friend of mine was charged. He contacted me and I directed him to the NFA. He tells me that he did contact the NFA so there should be some info on this case at least. If you want his name, send me a private message. I believe he has retained Calvin Martin so he should also have info but may not be free to release anything. Ron McCutcheon P. Eng mccutcrg@mail.rose.com Good gun control is a keen eye and a steady hand. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:15:48 -0600 From: SHELDON CLARE Subject: Collections My collection is very simple. I collect guns that I like to shoot. If someone tells me I can't target shoot something because it's a collection piece, they don't understand me or my collection. (or maybe they do...) The common characteristic for my collection? Everything in it goes BANG!, and helps to move a projectile down range - I must admit my golf clubs are a bit quieter... Sheldon Clare ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:15:50 -0600 From: "Charles Stansfield" Subject: Re: 35 Whelan Lyman's 47th Edition on page 325-26 has some very good information on the 35 Whelan. It looks to be a GREAT moose cartridge from the loading information, if you don't want to go with a calibre that uses a magnum, short-lived, case. It's essentially a necked-up 30-06. Expect maximum velocities in the range of 2900 fps with 180 grain loads, 2800 fps with 200 gr. loads, and 2650 fps with 225 gr. loads. The bullet diameter is .358", the max. overall cartridge length is 3.340", and the maximum case length is 2.494". Lyman has gotten its data using a Universal Receiver with a 24" barrel and a 1-16" twist. Due to copyright considerations, I won't give load data here, but I do recommend that you drop into your local store for a look at this most comprehensive Lyman's Manual. I find it more valuable than all my others, except for Barnes' with their bullets. Good luck! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:26:52 -0600 From: Kevin Watson Subject: U.S handgun sales Every U.S. state has a different policy with regard to selling firearms to any non-resident.Some states will not sell handguns to non-residents but a resident can make the purchase and deliver it to Canada where the non-resident can make the declaration and pay the GST.Other states allow non-residents to make the purchase and will sell you a non-resident permit for as little as $15. The U.S. Treasury requires an export permit which shows the firearm leaving the U.S. KW. NFA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:26:49 -0600 From: "Jon McCormick" Subject: National Firearms License Plates I have one attached below my front license plate. I can not count the number of inquiries as to where I got it, why I have it, general discussi= ons of firearms and just plain lookers. Could be a good thing for you to consider if you do not have one. Anything to create an opportunity to discuss responsible firearms. Jon W. Jon McCormick B.A. MEd. Lazee J J's Ranch Lone Butte, British Columbia ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:26:57 -0600 From: Bill Rantz Subject: Fw: Re: surplus monkey problem - ---------- > Date: Wednesday, 1997 July, 16 18:21:42 > From: brantz > To: sfn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca > Subject: Re: surplus monkey problem > > > > ---------- > > July 16 national news indicated that due to budget cutbacks our fede= ral > > government has 750 "surplus" monkeys. It seems that they are simply = no > longer > > needed for research projects. They were previously used for a wide = variety > of > > experiments which would benefit all Canadian citizens. > > The cost of maintaining these monkeys is approximately $1 000 000 > > Dolllars per year and it appears that Ottawa is considering selling = this > group > > of monkies to save tax dollars. An "animal welfare" organization was = quoted > as > > stating it would be kinder if the monkeys were terminated. This would > > guarantee that they were not mistreated. > > I suggest that all 750 monkeys be immediately transferred to the new > > firearms registration department which is to be established in New > Brunswick. > > The savings would be most significant! A similar number of employees = would > > cost$31 500 000 (@$42 000/year) plus benefits, holidays and lifelong > pensions. > > I am assuming that the monkeys currently recieve none of these benefi= ts. > > These monkeys would work ambitiously sorting and filing the firearm > > registration postcards from morning to evening. I am certain that the= y could > > be trained to use a keyboard to enter data into computers at a reason= able > > rate. > > More senior monkeys would receive extra bananas for = training > > the young monkeys which would be born throughout the year. This burea= ucracy > > would expand naturally and in a few years an army of monkeys would = be > employed > > in this department. > > The entire registration system would, of course, be totally useless = and > > would definitely not stand up as evidence in our Canadian legal syste= m. > > The benefits are the significant savings and the fact = that > our > > Prime Minister and former Justice Minister would be able to stand tal= l and > > advise the press that they have delivered a low cost registration sys= tem as > > promised. > > > > Wm .R.Rantz > > NFA Ontario President > > Email: brantz@vianet.on.ca > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:26:57 -0600 From: Bud Melless Subject: 1997 IPSC Ontario Provincial Championships IPSC Ontario Provincial Championships ---------------------------------------------- With only a few short weeks until the big match at Sudbury again this year, we thought send this reminder so that you can book early for this fun match. We think the 1997 IPSC Ontario Provincial Championships will be one of the best yet. The gang at Sudbury have been busy for some time now designing and building stages for this years match, and extend a big welcome to IPSC members everywhere to come on up and enjoy the fun. Scheduled for August 29, 30 and 31, the match this year will of course be an IPSC Level III match that includes the following: 14 Stages of pure fun - built on 11 ranges. Approximately 200 rounds Awards Banquet (Sunday Evening) with a huge Beef, and Pork Roast. President's Medals IPSC Ontario Medals Provincial Awards IPSC Ontario Match Cetificates Stage Awards - Sudbury Revolver Club Awards Free camping available with washroom and shower facilities Breakfast and lunch is served right on the premises Match Shirts - Printed right on-site this year Shotgun and Pistol Side-Events Match Fee $55.Cdn. That's right folks, $55.00 As per the new IPSC Rules, the match will be scored as two separate matches. Therefore, there will be awards for the Open Match, as well as the Standard Match. The shooting schedule will be radically different from other years too, there will only be one start time. Eight squads of six or seven competitors will begin at 8:30am and shoot til 12: Noon. Everyone, (RO's included) will stop for one hour for lunch break, sleep or whatever, and start again at 1:00pm. This way, everyone will be done shooting by 3:00pm and can enjoy the rest of the day off. We think everyone will appreciate the break. The match is shot in one day, and no competitor has to work. Anyone who's ever been to a Sudbury match can tell you how nice the ranges are, and the fine people at the Sudbury Club. It's just a great way to spend the Labour Day weekend, and another opportunity for all you Ontario members to support one of your Ontario clubs. This year will be even better because the match begins on the Friday, and runs until Sunday afternoon only, giving you the entire Monday to travel. For all you Ontario members who have Map Books, see page 39 for directions. Anyone wishing to go that needs directions, please email me offline, I'll be happy to send you a copy of the map. Thanks Dave Derro - Match Director Bud Melless - Range Master ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:27:00 -0600 From: jean hogue Subject: Second machine-gun killing in Canada > BTW, which was the second >instance of a full-auto being used in a crime in Canada? I can remember >Lortie in Quebec City using 2/TWO of the government's own C1 SMGs that he >smuggled out of a "secure" weapons vault, but can't think of another one. The other one occured in Rock Forest, Quebec. I forgot the year, circa mid 80's. The local police, armed with Uzi SMG's under full government approval, were pursuing holdup suspects. They acted on the flimsiest of evidence -- such as the wrong vehicle licence plate entered in a motel log. They tried to kick in the suspect's room door but something went wrong and one of the officers litteraly hosed the room with bullets. Result of the operation: a laborer (carpet layer) was killed and another customer of the motel was narrowly missed by one of the stray bullets. Turned out they had nothing to do with the holdup and did not have any firearm with which the victim would have fired the first shot, as claimed by the officers. In the end, the officers were given promoted instead of having to account for their actions in criminal court. The tag line below is appropriate. ___________________________________________________________ "I came to Ottawa with the firm belief that the only people in this country who should have guns are police officers and soldiers." Allan Rock, Author of C-68 law on gun "control" Maclean's "Taking Aim on Guns", April 25, 1994, page 12. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:27:02 -0600 From: dclarke@marathon.Lakeheadu.Ca (Don Clarke) Subject: Postcard registration I wonder if someone could tell me what the penalties are for registering your neighbours guns? I was asked by a person in the doughnut shop what was to keep them from getting a couple of those postcards, filling them out with "imaginary" information on a handgun or prohibited firearm and sending them in. Signing them with a friends name and address, of course. Like "Al Rock, P O Box XXXX, Matawa Ont." I mumbled something like "I'dunno, let me check on it." So, could someone here on the digest tell me how the registery could check on a bogus postcard? I can see a real problem here, because if someone mails in a card with the proper fee, how is the registry going to know it is fake? And if the police are asked to check/confiscate a bogus prohibited firearm listed to John Doe, how many incidents will it take before the police start to refuse to make these checks? Don [Moderator: An interesting question from an intellectual point of view, but surely you are not suggesting that any law abiding Canadian would actually do such a thing. HTB] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:27:04 -0600 From: dclarke@marathon.Lakeheadu.Ca (Don Clarke) Subject: .35 Whelan ballistics >From: Dale Hainer >Came across a 35 Whelan calibre. My books don't list this one although I >have heard of it. I don't see any major manufacturer producing ammo or even >a gun chambered for it. Someone recently made mentions of the 35 Whelan >being an acceptable or good Moose calibre. Any comments? Ballistical info? Dale, the 35 Whelan is an excellent cartridge/caliber for moose and bear. It's major problem is that in factory loads it falls pretty fast after 300 yards. A 200 grain bullet sighted in at +2.5" at 100 yards is -0.2" at 200, - -10.3" at 300 and -31.1 at 400 yards. The 250 grain factory load sighted in at +2.5" at 100 yards is -1.2" at 200 and -13.7 at 300 yards. fps 200grn Muzzle/2675 100/2378 200/2100 300/1842 400/1606 250grn Muzzle/2400 100/2197 200/2005 300/1823 400/1652 energy(ft. lbs.) 200grn Muzzle/3177 200yrds/1958 250grn Muzzle/3197 200yrds/2230 I've heard/read that the factory loads are kept mild because there are "older" rifles that can't take the hot loads that can be developed by us handloaders. (Grin) I guess some of us do push the envelope a touch. As for rifles chambered for the .35 Whelan, to my knowledge Remington was/is offering this loading in the Remington 7600 pump rifle. By the way, this load is a "long action" like the 30.06. Regards, Don ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:13:06 -0600 (CST) From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" Subject: the CSE unofficial webpage For a good time, check out this URL to see the results of your tax dollars at work... http://watserv1.uwaterloo.ca/~brobinso/cse.html ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #912 **********************************