From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Wed Aug 27 11:31:45 1997 From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #965 Content-Length: 24522 X-Lines: 626 Status: RO Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, August 27 1997 Volume 01 : Number 965 In this issue: Trail Firearms and the Rock special Re: Bears and Guns Christmas Re: Blowback vs. Gas Re: Lead Shot FAC Exams at the Toronto Hunting Show Lead Shot Ban (Reversed?) Discovery Channel Program (CFDv1 #963) Alberta Fish and Game Association Court Challenge Ruger Mini 30 Re: [HK-L] Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #964 Re: The Hullaballoo About Bears RE: Ruger Mini 30 Non-Toxic Shot Reg's Amendment Liberal Advisors Re: Prohibiting BB guns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:55:08 -0600 From: "Fred Davis" Subject: Trail Firearms and the Rock special Wondering if anyone is aware of Trail Firearms status; are they still in business? A friend sent them an order in February for the purchase of a Rock special (the 15 buck .25 caliber pistol) but never heard back from them until last night, when he got his letter back, unopened, with "return to sender" on it. Secondly, are there other dealers besides Trail that have some cheap, under 4" bbl, or .32 or .25 pistols for sale, shootable or not. The purpose here is for an "ungrandfathered" person to purchase a "prohibited" pistol. Thanks in advance. Fred Fred M Davis fmdavis@nortel.com TME Group - Nortel Semiconductors Nepean, ON ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:31:05 -0600 From: John Fowler Subject: Re: Bears and Guns > >Goldilocks' touching experience notwithstanding, the fact remains that >bears are rather nasty creatures, capable of killing a human being >without much effort. I have made a deal with all bearkind: if they >don't try to hurt me, I won't hurt them. I think that's a code that >everyone can live by. > Me too. And when I go for a walk in the woods near the Ottawa bedroom community where I live, I carry a gun. Always. Walk softly and join the NFA The abusive firearms charge we defeat may be your own. John Fowler http://www2.magma.ca/~jfowler/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:31:10 -0600 From: Mac McBride Subject: Christmas With the Christmas giving season hard upon us perhaps it is time to consider a years enrollment in the NFA for the person who has everything(else). For me, this solves the buying problem for adult offspring who really don't need any more neckties. I would not buy them a family membership without the permission of the family, but I believe that once they have a membership they will renew. This of course leaves me stuck for the next year. Mac. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:31:13 -0600 From: Gary Chambers Subject: Re: Blowback vs. Gas This gets a little wordy, but here goes... James' question: > > What's the difference between blowback and delayed blowback? > > Is there a book that explains, with lots of pictures, how the > > various automatic actions work? Use of gas to cycle the > > action means that things inevitably get crudded up. Why then > > do manufacturers choose this method? Dave's edited reply: > > Reason they aren't used commonly? BIG BOLTS! I believe an article I read > at one time > stated that a .30-06 would require a 25 pound bolt/carrier to be a > straight blow back. > :) (If H&K is an example, price might have something to do with it in > rifles as well.) > > Dave Kratky Virtually all of the military small arms guides will have a chapter dedicated to mechanisms, but if you can handle a real technical dissertation on the subject, written by an engineer, I recommend Hatcher's Notebook. In fact, if your interested in any technical aspect of firearms I recommend Hatcher's Notebook. It was the first book I got when I became bored with the superficiality of gun magazines and decided books were the way to go, and I treasure my copy above any other printed volume I own. There are actually four kinds of blowback: straight, API, delayed and retarded. The difference between delayed and retarded has become so misunderstood that even HK will insist it manufactures delayed blowback guns, when in fact the entire roller "locked" series of rifles and carbines are retarded blowbacks. Mind you, the P7 pistols really are delayed blowbacks, so I guess they make both. The characteristic of any blowback is that the gun is never truly locked, that is, suffucient pressure on the breechface will force the bolt back in relation to the barrel. This is key. With straight blowback, the pressure in the chamber that forces the bullet forward also accelerates the bolt backwards. Inertia of the bolt, not spring pressure, keeps the bolt from attaining any significant backward displacement (although it does gain appreciable velocity) until the bullet exits and pressure drops to safe levels. Once the bullet is gone, the bolt no longer accelerates, but its inertia again helps out, as it now has the momentum to go back against the spring and complete the cycle. This is quite feasible as long as power levels are low enough that bolt mass can be held to reasonable levels. API (Advanced Primer Ignition) blowback comes into play as power levels go up. It works on the simple idea that a mass going forward has more inertia to overcome than a mass standing still. Thus, if we fire the cartridge while the bolt is moving forward, them some of the force of the gases is used up just bringing the bolt to a stop, then the rest of the force can be used to blowback normally. This allows for a lighter bolt than one in a straight blowback, with the same cartridge. The drawback is that this can only work in an open bolt gun, as that is the only way to fire a cartridge while the bolt is still moving. Best and most common example is the Sten SMG. Retarded blowbacks use mechanical disadvantages to slow down acceleration of the bolt. In the HK rifle, pressure on the bolt face moves the (very small and light) bolt backward, but the rollers must be slowly cammed in for the bolt to proceed. As they are cammed in, they themselves cam a wedge from between them. This wedge is attached to the (very large and heavy) bolt carrier. The ratio is 4 to 1, ie the heavy carrier must move 4mm back for every 1mm the bolt moves. This immense disadvantge reduces the required bolt assembly mass from 27 lbs to about 2.5 lbs. A key thing to recognize is that even though it is impeded, the bolt starts to move the instant the bullet does, and this is the crucial factor. In delayed blowback, the bolt does not start to move at start pressure. Rather, some kind of mechanical action physically locks the bolt for an instant, the only case in any blowback where this happens. In the HK P7 pistol, gas is tapped from the barrel like in any gas operated self-loader, except that it forces the slide forward, not backward. As long as chamber pressure is at a certain level, that gas system will hold the breechblock (slide) closed. The instant pressures drop, the gas on the piston pushing forward will not be as great as the gas in the chamber pushing back, and the slide will start to move and will blowback as a straight blowback. In effect, this means designing a bolt around much lower pressures, and with consequently much lighter bolts. As to your question about why do they use gas operation, gas guns can almost always be lighter than blowbacks, and they are simpler, without the the precision machined cam surfaces retarded blowbacks demand (retarded blowback being the only one anybody has been able to make a decent rifle system around. Although retarded blowback could theoretically work, I suggest you read up on the Thompson Autorifle to see the problems.) Gas guns also tend to be less sensitive to brass quality (they work best with steel cases, actually) and don't require the bothersome fluted chamber. In terms of filth, any piston driven gas gun will at least keep carbon in the gas tube (direct impingement is a cat of a different color) while blowbacks are the filthiest, as there is always a little remaining pressure to blow hot gas into the action. If you ever shoot an HK rifle eith dirty ammo, prepare yourself for the coal mine of carbon that gets depostited around the barrel extension Sorry about the length of this guys, but hey, debunking blowback misconceptions is one of my favourite things to do. GC (who designed a straight blowback SMG for his 4th year design project, but no, I didn't build a prototype) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:31:05 -0600 From: John Fowler Subject: Re: Lead Shot At 10:55 AM 26-08-97 -0600, you wrote: > >Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, August 26 1997 Volume 01 : Number 964 > >At 20:20 22/08/97, John E. Stevens wrote: >>Hi Gord: >>Does the OFAH have any comments on this? Have the feds truly ended shotgun >>hunting? Would it, of course, apply to shotgunning/muzzleloading for deer? >> >><<<>>> > > >John, in response, the ban applies only to the possession of toxic shot >within 200m of a watercourse or body of water for the purpose of hunting >waterfowl, or hunting of waterfowl with toxic shot within 200 m of a body of >water or water course. > >Key Concepts : I'm afraid that OFAH's "Key Concepts" outlined in this post are naive at best and possibly dangerously misleading. While I sincerely *hope* things turn out as described here, any hunter who follows this advice and is subsequently charged may very well turn out to be sorry indeed. For me, I'm loading up bismuth loads to shoot in my old guns on my remote beaver pond!!! Meantime, It *would* be nice to have something, official or otherwise, to indicate Ontario MNR's approack to these "key concepts". Or can we hope that they may have been put together based on some hints? Walk softly and join the NFA The abusive firearms charge we defeat may be your own. John Fowler http://www2.magma.ca/~jfowler/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:31:08 -0600 From: "Glenn Springer" Subject: FAC Exams at the Toronto Hunting Show Dave Tomlinson said, >However, I strongly recommend that you DO get at least one FAC >before C-68 comes into force... C-68 will split firearms licenses into two groups -- non-restricted and restricted and there will be mandatory courses and exams if you wish to acquire (not for simple possession, I understand). As I understand it, even the hunters who were 'grandfathered' in late 1995 will have to take the exam when next they renew. If you are in the Toronto area you may find it useful to challenge the FAC exam while visiting the Hunting Show (kill two birds with one stone, so to speak). The show runs Friday-Saturday-Sunday, September 5-6-7 at the International Centre near Pearson Airport. Contact me by email directly for more info, or check out my web site Glenn Springer glenns@passport.ca CPFO Master Instructor # ON-0095 - ------------------------------------------------------------------ FAC Firearms Academy Canada 24-HOUR HOTLINE: PO Box 3333, Markham, ON L3R 6G6 416 966 7464 - ------------------------------------------------------------------ visit our web site at: http://www.passport.ca/~glenns ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:31:08 -0600 From: fhryder@nbnet.nb.ca (fhryder) Subject: Lead Shot Ban (Reversed?) Hi Folks: The following quote is taken from the August 26, 1997 issue of the Daily Gleaner. The entire article may be found at: ' "The New Brunswick government has no plans to force New Brunswick hunters to hunt with anything other than lead shot for upland game."=20 Alan Graham, natural resources minister=20 OTTAWA -- Under threat from the New Brunswick government, Ottawa backed down on its complete ban of lead shot for hunting birds.=20 Instead, new regulations approved by the federal cabinet allow lead shot for uplands game, and in particular in the annual woodcock hunt. ' I have asked the publisher for permission to post the entire article to the digest. Otherwise it will be available on the site till next Tuesday. I hope this makes some useful contribution to this thread of discussion. Frank Ryder, President NFA-New Brunswick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:31:20 -0600 From: jf_avon@citenet.net Subject: Discovery Channel Program (CFDv1 #963) On 25 Aug 97 at 14:32, Joseph Widdup wrote: > I am not sure if the Discovery Channel is broadcast > through Canadian cable. In the western part of Montreal, it is standard channel (29) of CF Cable. East of St-Laurent st. in Montreal, you have to have some extra package with Videotron to get it. jfa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:31:21 -0600 From: cmacphee@nbnet.nb.ca (cmacphee) Subject: Alberta Fish and Game Association Court Challenge The Hampton Rifle & Pistol Club Inc. had it's Annual General Meeting on Tuesday, August 26 and it has voted to forward to the Alberta Fish and Game Association a cheque in the amount of $500.00 to assist on the court challenge. In addition, a donation box will be setup to allow for individual contributions and the proceeds will be forwarded in the near future. Cheque for $500.00 will be in the mail tomorrow morning. Austin MacPhee, Treasurer Hampton Rifle & Pistol Club Inc PO BOX 768 Hampton, NB E0G 1Z0 . Canadian Firearms Enthusiasts may be interested in the Hampton Rifle & Pistol Club Inc. Homepage as it is dedicated to personal classified Ads for buying and selling. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:31:20 -0600 From: Courtney Campbell Subject: Ruger Mini 30 What is the status of the Ruger Mini 30? Is it a variant of the Mini 14, and thus classed as granfathered prohibited? The reason I asked is because I saw one in a gun store recently and the store owner claimed that it was unrestricted. I'm wondering if it was unrestricted at the time when he bought it from the wholesalers. How would the law affect this firearm? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:44:35 -0600 From: Kevin Watson Subject: Re: [HK-L] Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #964 >From the H&K List. > As for blowback, and delayed... Here's how I understand it works: Blowback: Pressure on the cartridge from firing pushes the bolt/carrier to the rear, cycling the action. Relies on spring tension, and is generally only seen in smaller calibre rifles and pistols(Ex..22s, .25s,.32s some 9mms) * Nope, relies on bolt or slide mass. >Delayed Blowback: Uses something to delay opening of the action untillchamber pressures drop to safe levels. (Ex. one heavy mother of a bolt.) * Nope. See below. > I believe most submachine guns use this, as well as some H&Kfirearms(Roller locking)(??) Reason they aren't used commonly? BIG BOLTS! I believe an article I read at one time stated that a .30-06 would require a 25 pound bolt/carrier to be a straight blow back. * Actually, a 38 pound bolt in a G3 firing .308 if not roller locked. Three kinds of operation in a semi or full automatic firearm. 1. Gas (Self-explanatory) 2. Recoil (bolt and barrel move together) 3. Blowback (Bolt and barrel stationary) a. Simple b. Delayed 1. M16/AK-47 2. Colt 1911, Beretta, SIGs, Glock 3. a. Uzi, MAC 10 b. MP5, G3 et al. Simple blowback uses bolt mass to safely operate, delayed uses mechanical leverage. - -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 05:48:09 -0600 From: BChow2or81@aol.com Subject: Re: The Hullaballoo About Bears Check out the latest "Canadian Sportsman", Sep/Oct ' 97, p. 67, to see how The Law is apparently becoming an advocate of the Bearpersons, and maybe the Cougarpersons, to the exclusion of the H.Sap'spersons. It seems The Law will not be sympathetic to your argument. The implications of W.D.Paul's article are devastating. He says if you're Carrying, you're Hunting! What ever happened to "Intent", and to "Presumed Innocent", and for goodness sake, what happened to "Protection of Life"? I mean, There's Bears in Them There Hills!! If we can't carry a loaded rifle or shotgun in the country, merely because we have filled our tag, or we're near water or whatever the heck they dream up next, or it's not the season to be jolly, then it's folly! We all will just have to stay home and read hunting or hiking books - that should satisfy our "Need for a Stupid Hobby" which is a "Danger to the people of Canada" (the quotes are from a famous statement by a certain P.M. on TV, before or during a certain re-election campaign). Since a pistol is far inferior to a long arm for Hunting, if we could carry a suitable pistol we could unload our longarms, if this truly is the will of the people, be less likely to appear to be hunting, but still have emergency protection. However, it's already very difficult (impossible, actually, for most people) to get a permit to carry protection on your belt, even though the .44Mag revolver: (a) can be deployed much faster than a long arm which has to be carried slung most of the time, to keep the hands free to deflect the bush, use tools, etc., (b) has a muzzle blast (aimed at the ground just in front of the Average Bearperson) which will almost always remind said A.B. he/she really prefers to lunch on someone other than ME....and, (c) prevents having to plug our A.B. - sure to please all those who profess to love Bearpersons. This love arises because, after all: (i) the fact that I not only own a gun but also want to carry it, obviously means that I intend to, and probably already have, murdered a lot more campers and innocent hikers, etc., than Ursus Timidus Dulcis et Mitis ever has (how dare you call poor Ursus, "Horribilis"! ) (ii) that same fact also means I smell worse than Ursula, who is only in heat occasionally. Hey! Maybe that's why Ursus is mad at the world! ....... (d) with the right loads will seriously interfere with A.B.'s ability to get within stompin' & chompin' range of the most important H.Sap in my life at that particular moment in history - ME again - because, theoretically, somewhere there may be an Ursus who owns a shield and earmuffs. If ' n you cain't stop THAT Ursus, y'all won't need no curses. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:06:27 -0600 From: "Fred Davis" Subject: RE: Ruger Mini 30 Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30 are unrestricted rifles. [Moderator: This is currently the case but there have been statements by government that they will become prohibited after C-68 is brought into force. HTB] Fred M Davis fmdavis@nortel.com TME Group - Nortel Semiconductors Nepean, ON >-----Original Message----- >From: Courtney Campbell [SMTP:courtney@northcom.net] >Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 11:31 PM >Subject: Ruger Mini 30 > >What is the status of the Ruger Mini 30? Is it a variant of the Mini >14, and thus classed as granfathered prohibited? The reason I asked is >because I saw one in a gun store recently and the store owner claimed >that it was unrestricted. I'm wondering if it was unrestricted at the >time when he bought it from the wholesalers. How would the law affect >this firearm? > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:06:28 -0600 From: Gord Gallant Subject: Non-Toxic Shot Reg's Amendment Here are some questions and answers on the recent announcement on Lead Shot Regulations Amendment that has been developed by the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters. The answers should have general applicabilty across Canada, although some of the integration with the various provincial hunting laws may vary. ================================================= New Shot Regulations for Migratory Bird Hunting The following questions and answers are designed to help you understand the new shot regulations. What is non-lead shot? Non-lead shot means bismuth shot, steel shot, tungsten-iron shot or tungsten-polymer shot. These shots are more expensive than lead. You should check with your local retailer for prices and availability. When do I have to start using non-lead shot? Commencing September 1, 1997, you may not possess lead shot for the purpose of hunting migratory birds (ducks and geese) within 200 meters of any watercourse or body of water. This regulation does not apply to woodcock hunting, except in National Wildlife Areas. You can hunt other game animals with lead shot, such as rabbits and grouse, and big game with appropriate sized shot, within the 200 meter zone. Can I use lead shot for waterfowl hunting outside the 200 meter zone? You can use lead shot for migratory bird hunting (ducks and geese) provided that you are not within 200 meters of any watercourse or body of water. For example, goose hunters hunting in a field situation more than 200 meters from a waterbody can still use lead shot. What is a watercourse or body of water? A watercourse or body of water is any water listed in the Gazetteer of Ontario. This includes all named waterbodies and major ponds and streams. It does not apply to temporary sloughs or dugouts. Are there any areas where the 200 meter zone does not apply? There are some areas where a total ban on the use of lead shot for migratory bird hunting (except woodcock) remain in effect. These include the non-toxic shot zone in the Lake St. Clair area, Wildlife Management Unit 76 in the Wye marsh area, and zones at Darlington and Presqu'ile Provincial Parks (all areas that have been zones for non-toxic shot for some time). Will there be any more changes? Commencing on September 1, 1999, the use of non-lead shot for all migratory bird hunting (except woodcock) will come into effect. Consult the hunting regulations and your Migratory Bird Permit summary for more information. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:06:27 -0600 From: JBachyn797@aol.com Subject: Liberal Advisors Just seen on CTV news 27 August. Amnesty International alleges that Mohammad Olo was a high ranking member of the brutal Somalian government and should not have been granted refugee status in Canada. Oh and by the way, Olo has become a member of the Liberal party and has been hired by them as an advisor. I wonder what he advises them on? Oppressive government technique? James ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:06:31 -0600 From: "Alfred.Hovdestad@usask.ca" Subject: Re: Prohibiting BB guns > I heard the woman behind it, as well as the female politician (it's a > private member's bill) blabbing about it on TALK640 Radio, on the Jane > Hawten show a few months ago... Now I regret not writting down their > names.......... I thought that this sounded familiar, so I went checking. Here is a message from 1996: Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:14:06 -0600 From: bfisher@nfld.com (Bob Fisher) Subject: Re: Pellet Gun Ban MP Taking Aim At Pellet Guns "St. John's East MP Bonnie Hickey is in the midst of putting together a draft calling for an outright ban on BB and pellet guns in Canada....." "Hickey said if municipal councils can bring in bylaws banning the guns, as St. John's and Mount Pearl have done, there's no reason why the provincial and federal governments can't do the same." - -- This first appeared in Digest v01n661. I also believe that Hickey was defeated in the last election (St. John's East). - -- Alfred Hovdestad -- Member of -- Saskatchewan Responsible Firearm Owners Saskatchewan Bowhunters Association National Firearms Association Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation Reform Party of Canada CRIME CONTROL, NOT MORE GUN CONTROL! ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #965 **********************************