From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sun Aug 31 09:18:50 1997 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (majordomo@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27971; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:18:48 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA31546 for cdn-firearms-digest-out; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:01:10 -0600 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:01:10 -0600 Message-Id: <199708311501.JAA31546@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #972 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: RO Content-Length: 23363 X-Lines: 519 Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, August 31 1997 Volume 01 : Number 972 In this issue: FAC exam requirement Re: Permits Re: bringing my guns to Canada Re: Gun Control Re: Reloading Reregistering an already registered firearm An Old Man Remembers case cleaning I found this interesting Insensitive Postings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:40:33 -0600 From: "Glenn Springer" Subject: FAC exam requirement On 29 Aug 97, Dave Tomlinson wrote: > Subject: Re: New Exam required when renewing ?? > > >Dear Dave, could you please clarify your remarks quoted by Genn > >Springer in CFD 965 about the requirement anticipated that hunters > >who have a valid FAC now will have to go through another course and > >exam when they renew the next time ?? Which would mean another > >expense and waste of time. > > This entire area is a mess -- not an unusual situation with our > witless firearms control laws and the untrained people who operate > the system. > > 1. To get an FAC, you must take the Canadian Firearms Safety > Course. Not quite. You must pass the Canadian Firearms Safety Exam. The course is not mandatory unless you are a minor, you are coming off a prohibition order or you want to become an instructor. > 2. The government's theory is that if you have an FAC that you got > without taking that course, you must take the course before being > granted a renewal. (NOTE WELL: If you allow your FAC to LAPSE, then > you are subject to the rules for first issuance all over again. You > must renew BEFORE the old FAC expires, or comply with the rules as > they NOW stand.) Same comment as above. Except there is no difference in the exam requirement if you are renewing a still-valid FAC, an expired one or obtaining a first one. If your FAC is still valid when you renew, you save $25, that's the only difference. By the end of 1998, everyone with a valid FAC will have demonstrated a basic level of safety knowledge by having passed the CFS exam -- except for that group of people who were "grandfathered" in late 1995 because they had a hunting license and answered a quick 20-question quiz. When that group renews in 2000, they will join the larger group. Bill C-68 has other plans whereby FAC's will be converted to FL's and you're right, that's a mess and we'll just have to wait and see what shakes out. Rumour has it that if you don't have a valid FAC with proof of passing the CFS exam, you will have to take a MANDATORY course and exam at that time if you want an FL that entitles you to acquire firearms (not just possess the ones you already have). That's why we have been suggesting that people challenge the CFS exam now instead of later when the process will be more complex and expensive. There are many things I do not agree with in the existing or proposed legislation. But I must say that I agree with establishing and enforcing a minimum safety knowledge standard for firearms owners. We can argue 'till the cows come home about whether those standards are adequate or accurate, or whether the course is perfect or not but some minimum is better than none. I have personally put about 1,500 people through the exam, and some of what I have seen is scary. Worst of all are the guys who say, "I've been hunting for 40 years and...". Worst was the guy who took a run at the dummy fence we had built when asked to demonstrate how he would safely cross it. With a 'loaded' 870 pump. He tripped as he leapt over it and swept everyone in the room as he fell. By the way I learned that in 1994 in Ontario, there were ZERO fatalities in firearms related hunting accidents. ZERO. Bravo, hunter- ed instructors. Congratulations, Ministry of Natural Resources. To repeat: we are running FAC (CFS) exams at the Toronto Hunting and Outdoor Show on September 5-6-7. Tell you what: mention this posting on the digest and we'll give a $5 discount on your exam -- $25 instead of $30. Glenn Springer Glenn Springer glenns@passport.ca CPFO Master Instructor # ON-0095 - ------------------------------------------------------------------ FAC Firearms Academy Canada 24-HOUR HOTLINE: PO Box 3333, Markham, ON L3R 6G6 416 966 7464 - ------------------------------------------------------------------ visit our web site at: http://www.passport.ca/~glenns ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:40:36 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Re: Permits >Many thanks for your exhaustive posting on CFD 1-970 re illegal conditions and >renewal refusals. >I wrote a few weeks ago about my wilderness carry permit and the arbitrary >refusal of renewal last fall, by a clerk who signed for the RCMP Cpl, on the >grounds that I'm not a "Full Time" Prospector and don't have a claim of my >own at the moment, although there was NO such stipulation in my previous >years' permits which had stated merely: "is valid only while engaged in the >above occupation" . Does your posting imply that the refusal was illegal? Yes. In two ways. First, if you applied before the old permit ran out, the renewal should have been automatic. Second, in BC, the Appeal Court of BC ruled, in Hurley v. Dawson, that there is NO right of refusal for carry permits. The court ruled that if the applicant "brought himself" within a group of persons eligible for the permit, the permit MUST be issued unless the issuer is precluded from issuing by a limitation in the law. > Perhaps I don't have to apply for a writ of mandamus after all, but could >merely go to a higher officer and state the chapter and verse? Good luck! They have been abusing people like you for so long that they have no idea what the rules REALLY are, and they are confident that you will not go to court. > By the way, are there any "Full Time" Prospectors nowadays? We pop in and >out of the bush or the mountains like jack-in-the-boxes, and may not have a >claim of our own for months and years at a time - especially, as in my case, >we're mainly helping someone who does have one and/or is also looking. >When you're in the bush, you're full time as far as the bears are concerned! The "full-time prospectors" bit is a red herring. You are NOT trying to get a carry permit for "use in connection with his lawful profession or occupation [CC s. 110(2)(b)]; you want a permit "to protect life [CC s. 110(2)(a)]." The issuer is trying to divert the court by pretending that you need a gun to dig rocks. Dave Tomlinson, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:40:38 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Re: bringing my guns to Canada >I am going to be moving into Canada, with the status of non-immigrant >worker. I would like to bring my .22 semi-auto rifle and 12 guage >semi-auto shotgun, legally of course. What do I need to do in order to >accomplish this? Can I accomplish this? Does the process become easier >if I become a citizen by marriage to a Canadian? No sweat, if you arrive this year. Bill C-68 has been passed, but has not yet come into force. It is scheduled to come into force "sometime in 1998," but there are severe problems with it and no one knows when -- or if -- it will be proclaimed. Dave Tomlinson, NFA [Moderator: Actually it was "proclaimed" on the Ecole Polytechnique anniversary (for the symbolism), it has not yet been "brought into force." HTB] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:40:39 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Re: Gun Control > Dave is it wrong in asking if the manufacturers of any type of >gun are supporting the fight against gun control. The tobacco industry >fights for lower taxes on tobacco products and the rights for a smoker >to smoke without government telling them where (although they do). >Manufacturers may be hit hard in Canada if a gun owner has to jump >through so many hoops and go through so much red tape to buy a .22 for >something as minor as gopher hunting. It is hard for the manufacturers to do much, because they are not based in Canada. Our government has virtually destroyed the Canadian firearms industry, driving it out into more hospitable nations. If an American (or Belgian or Swiss or Austrian) manufacturer tried to assist us in our battle against the Liberal party's attacks on the firearms community, they would be attacked themselves for interfering in our "democratic election." Dave Tomlinson, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:38:28 -0600 From: John Fowler Subject: Re: Reloading At 09:40 AM 30-08-97 -0600, you wrote: > > >Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:24:24 -0600 >From: kdesolla@cyberus.ca (Keith P. de Solla) >Subject: Re: Reloading Answers > >snip > > >> >>4. You do not need a case tumbler. Use BRASSO, a few sheets of paper >>towelling, and some elbow grease. > Why bother? Unless you MUST have shiny cases!!!! For most of my rifle loads I only neck size the cases never need cleaning (they get dull, but so what> For hunting loads that are full-length resized I use Lee sizing lube, and when the loads are completed I plce tham all in a bowl, spray a LITTLE wd-40, and wipe them with a soft cloth. Works like a charm. Then, I shine 'em up by carrying a few spares in my pocket while hunting. Walk softly and join the NFA John Fowler http://www2.magma.ca/~jfowler/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:38:31 -0600 From: KEARNS & McMURCHY Subject: Reregistering an already registered firearm Hi Peter, In response to your enquiry about re-registration of restricted firearms: a) You can send a copy of your green form with a request for a change in registration to FRAS. Remember a COPY, and a handwritten note stating that you wish to change the registration to the frame only, so calibre, barrel length and shots are to be removed from the registration form. You do not have to declare that you disposed of anything! Within a month or so, a nice new green registration will arrive, and maybe a request that you present the item on the form at your local police station for inspection. Do not do this! Tell them that they may view the item at your home, and at your convenience, as only details on the form have changed, nothing has physically happened to the registered part. b) You may go to your local police and request them to forward an amendment to the registration certificate. When they tell you that they have no forms to do this, suggest that they use the same ones they normally forward as an application to register a restricted firearm, (C302). Remember to take a photocopy of your green registration card and your FAC. (The FAC is receiving more use to verify I.D. and form part of your local police file number). If the police insist on seeing the newly registered part you may have to endure the minor inconvenience of unscrewing a revolver barrel, or removing the top slide/ barrel assembly from your semi auto. Assault rifles are usually fairly easy to separate into frame and upper. Remember that your short barreled "non grandfathered" (only Canada would use such a term) could be protected IF the feds decide to annoy you by attempting to confiscate your property. What follows is an incident you may find interesting, A man came in to our store and said he had been charged with unsafe storage of ammunition and having an overcapacity magazine. We referred him to Dave Tomlinson, who graciously provided his lawyer with all the required defence materials. We then chatted to the very upset object of Edmontons finest's attention. He and his brother had been arguing, and the brother in an attempt to inconvenience him called the police and told them that he was threatened with a gun.... They arrived seized the gun, (which incidentally was not used as a threat or even mentioned in the dispute), removed the magazine which had been permanently blocked to five rounds by the a screw inserted through the side. Then the officer pulled out his handy dandy SOF multitool and using his skill removed the screw!! Then this defender of the meek charged the poor guy with having an overcapacity magazine!! Obviously the caped crusader did not realise his actions had elevated him from police officer to criminal!! By converting a legal item to prohibited status he now should enjoy a little R & R at "Club Fed". Not content with this display of intelligence, he then charged the poor unfortunate with improper storage of ammunition!! Ammunition was in the same room as the gun, but as our blackshirted hero failed to notice..... so was the owner!! As an aside, the "accused's" brother admitted his call was made with malicious intent to cause trouble for his brother, and he was promptly charged with filing a false report!! I deal with Edmonton Police Service on a daily basis, and have a great deal of respect for them, they are great people, but it only takes one stupid idiot to make the rest of them look bad. Regards..............Peter "First Keystone Kustoms......... now Keystone Kops" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:38:29 -0600 From: Andrew Warner Subject: An Old Man Remembers When I was very young I joined the Canadian Navy in the last year and a half of World War II. I was very aware of world events, having two uncles in the army in England, and a buddy who was a Spitfire pilot flying out of an air force base near London. He was killed in that war, one of many hailed as a hero against tyranny. * Just a short time earlier (as time is measured) England was threatened by the advent of the "buzz" bomb, and the ongoing fear that an invasion of that country was only a step away. France had been conquered by Hitler and the only thing separating the English from the Nazis was the very narrow English Channel. * Germany's planes were bombing England without mercy, and some success by The Royal Air Force caused the Nazi pilots to bail out over that land. * The fear of invasion and the real threat of a paratrooper landing on English soil (England was building up it's army) resulted in the call to arms of it's hunting citizens. Many of the home guard were armed with shotguns, the favourite weapon of the English citizenry. Their efforts resulted in a great number of captured enemy pilots. * In northern Australia the Japanese threatened an invasion from near-by islands, and again the citizens were called upon to back up the weakened army of that country. (Much of that army was serving in other areas) Here, as in England, the people stepped forward with their arms, ready to defend their land. * One wonders, as our own armed forces are reduced to nothing more than peacekeepers and rescue elements, if an unarmed citizenry would be any help to Canada ? I can just envision the sudden landing of armed enemy at the parliament buildings. I presume it would take weeks to clean the shit off the marble halls of that institution. * I'm sorry, but as one who stood up for my country in time of war, and went on to serve my country for another 38 years, it gives me no pleasure to watch the antics of bureaucrats who have not one idea of what it was like then. Perhaps, had they served their country in a meaningful way, I could reconcile myself to some measure of belief in their efforts on my behalf. The sad truth is I have yet to see a modern politician who truly represents the people. I have memories of great Canadian leaders, but they are only that, memories. * Remember, Nazi Germany started out the same way under Hitler. The populace was disarmed, restrictive laws were introduced, and dissenters summarily dealt with. We fought that war to return democracy and freedom of peoples to the world. It's starting to look more and more as if that war was fought in vain. The first step of Canada's bureaucratic control is already nearing initiation. And the police are acting more and more like gestapo. * The only alternative we have is voting the blinded and uncaring politicians out of office. That is the one thing left to us Canadians. Perhaps the Reform Party is the answer. I certainly hope so, for we need someone to bring it all back together again. * When the time comes, get out and vote, and convince all contacts to do the same. * ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 22:52:39 -0600 From: mtoma Subject: case cleaning I once (several times in fact) bought some once fired brass in 9mm and .223 persuasion from a commercial reloader. He got his brass via the Edm onton Police Force, excuse me service. Being a cop himself, this was easy and cheap for both of us. When I received the brass it was shiny enough to see yourself in it. How did he get his brass so clean?, I asked. Looking at his handy dandy cement mixer, his case tumbler, he told me he used 1/8" untreated corn cob litter from the pet super stores, and Brasso. Left overnight, the brass got real shiny real fast. Now someone, not really knowledgeable on the subject said Brasso weakens brass by chemically attacking it. I polished enough goddamn brass in my recruit training, from light fixtures, buckles, taps, plaques, what have you, and so did thousands of other hapless recruits before and after me. The fixtures are still there to this day, probably tarnished, Zanu/Zapu types probably not as motivated as we were. The point is, the brass did not wear away in any way. You will wear your brass cases out, rifle ones anyway, long before you let Brasso do the job. In your tumbler, use the aforementioned really cheap corncob, and one (1) tablespoon of Brasso. Leave on overnight. Result: really clean brass. Been doing this for years. Cheers, M. Toma ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 06:51:58 -0600 From: John Fowler Subject: I found this interesting I picked the following up off Dick Eastman's genealogy online newsletter - there are some interesting courses here, some of which may well be of value to shooters in this age of abusive governments and laws. > Classes Online > >Spectrum Virtual University, an "online university", is offering >free classes. Students are expected to telecommute to >virtual classrooms from Denmark, Germany, India, the Philippines, >Canada, and South Africa. > >This so-called "online university" is not a university in the >traditional meaning of the word. It is operated by Spectrum >Universal, a company that was founded in 1970 to create free or >low-cost learning centers. Spectrum Universal operates the >Discovery Center in Los Angeles. Spectrum has since expanded onto >the World Wide Web and now operates Spectrum Virtual University at >http://www/vu.org. Besides its three genealogy courses, the >university offers courses in Internet Law, Home Schooling, and >Basic Hebrew as well as psychology/self-help workshops such as >"Communicating In Emotionally Charged Situations" and "Managing >Conflict In Business." Computer classes include "E-Mail >Communication for ESL Students" and a 4-week workshop on Netscape >Communicator for beginners. All classes are free and open to the >public. > >Spectrum Virtual University reports that most of their students >are adults in their 30's and 40's with full time jobs and families >who like the convenience of logging in to classrooms after work >and on weekends. > >The "Introduction to Online Genealogy" course will be taught by >Marthe Arends. Marthe is an author and lecturer with 16 years >experience in the field. She is publisher of "Online Pioneers," a >genealogy newsletter. The class is intended for online newcomers. >It covers using Internet tools such as e-mail, Telnet, FTP and >search engines to access Usenet newsgroups, online databases, web >sites, and various other online resources of interest to >genealogists and those who want to learn more about their family >roots and history. This class begins October 13. > >For more information on these classes or any of the other courses >being taught at Spectrum Virtual University, look at >http://www.vu.org. > >Disclaimer: I haven't seen the actual courses themselves; I have >only read the announcement. I have no idea about the quality or >the depth of material being presented. Walk softly and join the NFA John Fowler http://www2.magma.ca/~jfowler/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:01:00 -0600 From: taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca Subject: Insensitive Postings In response to the Hunting Joke in Digest 962 wherein the hunters' national origin and the guide's ethnic origin were mentioned I received the following: >Apologies to all hunters and to our wonderful outfitters and guides >everywhere, but the opportunity to use the following funny story, I hope in a >good cause, is too good to pass up. [Moderator: The edited story was sent to other recipients, but will not be repeated here. HTB] The original version, posted to an >excellent internet digest a while ago, repeatedly mentioned the hunters' >country of origin and invariably referred to the guide by his race. > >I've taken the liberty of editing it slightly, to show how a good story does >not have to insult people, even though unintentionally, with references to >their Race and National Origin. > >I hope that future postings will have the same attention to other peoples' >feelings. I know that the sheer volume of work won't allow the >moderator/editor to cope with unimportant things such as spelling and grammar >unless they affect the meaning, but I feel that we should never re-broadcast >racist or religious slurs or propaganda. > >BTW, while I'm in my preaching mode, another recent posting by a highly >educated and very articulate contributor, by co-incidence to the same digest, > prompts me to suggest that we should not refer to our own religion in a way >that implies that others, of different faiths, are somehow inferior, viz: >"I'm a xxxx, so I do ...... (e.g., praiseworthy good deeds)." >Isn't it enough to say, "I believe in doing, -- -- ."? This contributor is absolutely right. I should have asked the original contributor of the Hunting Joke to remove the ethnic and national references (which were irrelevant to the joke) and resubmit, but I let it slip by. Our common cause is not furthered by remarks which are divisive or insensitive to the feelings of others. I will try to be more vigilant, I hope submitters will also help by asking themselves (before they hit the Send button) whether anything in their posting is likely to give offense. Of course a certain level of frustration with, and hostility towards, those who are attacking the RFC is expected, and postings which are offensive to them (in their official positions) are exempt from this dictum. Taylor Buckner, Moderator, Canadian Firearms Digest E-mail Research Papers ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #972 **********************************