From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mon Sep 1 08:14:57 1997 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (majordomo@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11685; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:14:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA29620 for cdn-firearms-digest-out; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 07:59:20 -0600 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 07:59:20 -0600 Message-Id: <199709011359.HAA29620@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #973 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: RO Content-Length: 24534 X-Lines: 578 Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, September 1 1997 Volume 01 : Number 973 In this issue: The Language of Ministers Liberalism=Symbolism re:Reloading and case tumbling Brass Cleaning -- Ammonia-Based Cleaners Are Potentially Dangerous! On being a good neighbor 19" BBL M-1 Carbine Re: Reloading Answers "Identification" by Serial Number FAC renewal Re: Which Provence\Territory is the most conservative? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:10:29 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: The Language of Ministers It is not commonly realized that the statements of Ministers in the Canadian cabinet regarding happenings require careful analysis before they can be understood. I hope that the following guidelines will assist you in future evaluation: What the Minister (or Prime Minister) says happened may actually be: 1. what happened, 2. what the Minister believed happened, 3. what the Minister would like to have happened, 4. what the Minister wants other to believe happened, or 5. what the Minister wants others to believe the Minister believed happened. Similarly, any statement by a Minister about his or her intentions may indicate: 1. what will happen, 2. what the Minister believes will happen, 3. what the Minister would like to happen, 4. what the Minister wants others to believe will happen, 5. what the Minister wants others to believe the Minister wants to happen, or 6. what the Minister wants others to believe the Minister believes will happen. Without careful analysis using these guidelines, one can be led sadly astray by the siren voice of a Minister (or Prime Minister). [I am indebted to Johnathan Lynn and Antony Jay for their elucidation of Ministerial commentary. I strongly recommend their books. "Yes, Minister," Volume 3, is ISBN 0-563-20196-7, and that should be enough data for any good bookstore to find you Volumes 1 to 3, plus Volumes 1 to 3 of "Yes, Prime Minister." They are also available as videos in major video outlets, recorded from the British TV series of the same names. These stories of errors, foibles, failures and rare successes resulting from the hilarious interaction between Minister (later, Prime Minister) Hacker, and his attached top civil servant, Sir Humphrey Appleby, are well worth studying as an authentic guide to how government REALLY works -- as well as providing many deep and hearty belly laughs.] Example text: Hacker has learned that Sir Humphrey made a serious error early in his civil service career. (That error has now cost the government 40 million British pounds). Hacker, delighted by his knowledge, works diligently to force Sir Humphrey to identify the culprit -- without telling Humphrey that he knows. Finally (after much wriggling and misinformation) forced to admit his guilt, Humphrey does so in this immortal scene: Sir Humphrey: "The identity of this official whose alleged responsibility for this hypothetical oversight has been the subject of recent speculation is not shrouded in quite such impenetrable obscurity as certain previous disclosures may have led you to assume, and, in fact, not to put too fine a point on it, the individual in question was, it may surprise you to learn, the one to whom your present interlocutor is in the habit of identifying by means of the perpendicular pronoun." Minister: "I beg your pardon?" [Anguished pause] Humphrey: "It was I." The two then cooperate to make certain that neither the press or the public will ever find out who was responsible for the huge monetary loss to the taxpayers. Government problems are further confused by an old Canadian tradition. Our governments (regardless of which Party forms the government at the moment) tend, when a GENUINE problem arises, to do nothing. That, of course, allows the problem to fester and grow until the right answer is glaringly obvious to everyone. As the problem gets worse and worse, the stench of the festering sore moves more and more people to demand corrective action. As the correct solution becomes more and more obvious, the demands for the CORRECT solution become stronger and stronger. Eventually, the government is forced to act -- often very feebly and very late, and often by preceding the correct action with uselessly feeble and inadequate actions. Example: Our government finally closed down the cod fishery -- but not until the fish stocks were almost completely exterminated, and no one could catch anything. It will take years for the fishery to recover, mainly because various Party governments all "fiddled" the scientific analyses of what was happening in order to continue with policies that would guarantee votes in the next election, rather than taking effective action while the REAL problem was small and easily correctable. That is our system of government -- and it is characterized by one grave peculiarity. Regarding real problems, our Leaders are always the last to know, and last to act. Dave Tomlinson, NFA FOCUS: On the other hand, our governments have often proved themselves to be first in line to correct IMAGINARY problems. That is because attacking IMAGINARY problems -- like the "need" for tougher and tighter firearms control -- generates a lot of publicity, provides the illusion of action, and almost never gets the government in trouble when its "solutions" fail to affect the imaginary problem at all. It is difficult to condemn a Minister for his or her actions when all the activity took place in dense fog, augmented by government fog generators. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:43:41 -0600 From: Jim Davies Subject: Liberalism=Symbolism > > No sweat, if you arrive this year. Bill C-68 has been passed, but has not > yet come into force. It is scheduled to come into force "sometime in 1998," > but there are severe problems with it and no one knows when -- or if -- it > will be proclaimed. > > Dave Tomlinson, NFA > > [Moderator: Actually it was "proclaimed" on the Ecole Polytechnique > anniversary (for the symbolism), it has not yet been "brought into force." > HTB] > How appropriate that a law that is purely symbolic (in its ability to affect crime) should be symbolically proclaimed on that date. Symbolic responses to real world concerns, are of course, the Liberals stock-in-trade. Now if they could only come up with a way of paying for their symbolic flights of fancy with symbolic money, instead of real tax dollars...The real dollar cost of C-68 is over $120 million dollars at last report, and what, besides the symbolism, do we have to show? Jim Davies ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:30:39 -0600 From: "Wayne Salhany" Subject: re:Reloading and case tumbling I've noticed a few comments regarding tumbling of cases and the concept of cleaning the outside. I tumble my cases (and yes I want them clean on the outside as they are being used in a self loading pistol) however, the main reason for doing this is to clean the inside. The main reason for this is to remove residue and inhibitors from the inside of the case. If the inside is left with residue in it, this residue can affect the burning of the powder. Granted, if you are loading up a 50 or 100 grain load, it may not be a major concern but I felt it was worth pointing out if accuracy is of importance. As others mentioned, if you don't tumble the cases, after loading, a soft cloth with a bit of WD-40 removes most of the cosmetic residue on the outside... And a dry rag removes the WD-40. Leaves them really nice looking. Wayne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:30:41 -0600 From: Charles Stansfield Subject: Brass Cleaning -- Ammonia-Based Cleaners Are Potentially Dangerous! Unless they've changed the formula, Brasso contains ammonia. Ammonia has been proved to be a serious weakener of brass. You may be lucky for awhile, but sooner or later a case cleaned with ammonia-based preparations will fail -- perhaps disastrously. This information comes from the NRA reloading handbook, which examines U.S. military and other studies that have examined the effects of various conditions on brass. If you want to merely clean your brass, simply use a good degreaser like "Cascade", an automatic dishwasher soap. If you want "shine" (which doesn't help the in proper cartridge-feeding) for personal reasons, then use a corncob media with some of Dillon's media additive -- no ammonia, and really economical. The shine is almost like factory-new. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:05:48 -0600 From: SBKracer Subject: On being a good neighbor The Hamilton man who successfully defended his neighbor's home has been charged by the police. So who in this digest didn't see that one coming? How come none of the media reported that the man bounced the shot off the pavement instead of shooting directly at the teenage criminals? The first TV news reports showed a scar on the pavement as a result of this action. The man who owns the home which was being broken into stated on TV that he wasn't in favour of guns but was willing to make an exception in this case. WHAT A HYPOCRIT !!!!!!!!!!! Guns are bad except when they are used to defend his property? All I can say is he had better be making a HUGE monetary donation to his good neighbor's defense fund. Peter Cronhelm ZX-7 Carbon Fibre Racing Machine SBKracer YSR/YZ80 The Little Beast "I'm not the man you say I am, not radical nor mentally deranged." - -Sons of Freedom- "Without the threat of death, what's the point in living at all!" - -Marilyn Manson- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:52:11 -0600 From: "Martina and Norman" Subject: 19" BBL M-1 Carbine Hello: What is the status of a M1 Carbine with or without a 19" barrel? Thanks Norman Toy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:52:07 -0600 From: "Greg Sheppard" Subject: Re: Reloading Answers > Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:14:27 -0600 > From: DJ MacIntyre > Subject: Re: Reloading > Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:14:16 -0600 > From: Robin Leech 8X--------- > 4. You do not need a case tumbler. Use BRASSO, a few sheets of paper > towelling, and some elbow grease. > > Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:24:24 -0600 > From: kdesolla@cyberus.ca (Keith P. de Solla) > Subject: Re: Reloading Answers > > snip > There has been discussion on rec.guns indicating this is a BAD idea, as the > Brasso chemically attacks the brass and weakens it. I am no chemist, but I understand Keith is correct in his caution. "Brasso" - at least the Oz variant, contains ammonia - just smell it and that should be obvious. Ammonia, as you may also be aware, is used in many bore solvents, at it dissolves copper residue (from jacket fouling). If you are not in the habit of washing your (bronze) bore brushes in hot soapy water or whatever to neutralise the residue of such solvents, you will shortly have a practical demonstration of the effect of ammonia on brass/bronze/copper. In cleaning cartridge cases, I understand that the Brasso action in 'cleaning' the cases actually results in removal of a percentage of the copper in the cartridge case (milspec brass is usually 60/40 copper/tin, commercial probably similar), which results in stress cracking of the thereby chemically weakened case alloy. THIS CAN LEAD TO CASE SEPARATIONS OR FAILURES on firing. For the slight cost (you are closer to the USA than us, and they don't cost much here), a commercial chemical case cleaner is a better option, if you cannot justify the cost of a tumbler. The only down side is that it is necessary to dry your cases by heating them _gently_ in an oven - around 100 deg F is enough, to ensure no moisture is present inside before reloading them. GregS ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:52:13 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: "Identification" by Serial Number All right, children, take notes. There will be a test. As you know, our happly little friends at the CFC -- on the advice of FRAS "experts" -- are planning to register all rifles and shotguns by "Serial number." I have frequently pointed out to both the CFC and FRAS that their plan is hopelessly flawed. You CANNOT "identify" firearms by Serial number! And here is WHY! The Mauser K98k was the standard military rifle of the German armed forces from 1935 to 1945 -- and of the armed forces of various other nations. By the time WW II ended, there were Mauser Karabiner 98k rifles all over Europe, Africa and parts of Asia. Many of them were brought back to Canada by returning servicemen, or imported into Canada later for the hunting rifle and collector markets. There are probably over 500,000 Mauser K98k rifles -- altered or original -- in Canada today. The Mauser K98k was adopted on 21 Jun 35. It was already being manufactured as the Standard Modell (mainly for export to China and South America) and, slightly improved, as a rifle for the Deutsches Reichspost. Why the German Post Office needed so many military rifles, I have no idea. This posting deals only with how serial numbers were applied to German military K98k rifles, and the other markings that one must UNDERSTAND to "identify" one. German military serial numbers are usually either 4D [up to 4 digits, no letters], 4DL [up to 4 digits, one letter], 4DLL [up to 4 digits, two letters], 5D [up to 5 digits, no letters] or 5DL [up to 5 digits, one letter]. NOTE THIS: a 4D Serial number starts repeating at 9999. A 5D starts repeating at 99,999. A 4DL Serial number starts repeating at 269,973 and a 4DLL starts repeating at 7,289,271. Those are the points when the system runs OUT of "unique identification" numbers and must start duplicating Serial numbers used earlier. Note that the Germans did not use ALL available numbers. They went back to "1" at the start of each calendar year, then duplicated all of the previous year's numbers. The first 9999 or 99,999 each year would show NO letter. And two FACTORIES would duplicate each other's numbers. The DATE of manufacture is crucial to identifying a K98k rifle. It may show up as a code letter, a 1-digit number, a 2-digit number or a 4-digit number [4, 44 and 1944 all mean made in 1944]. Got all that clearly in mind? Here we go. Oh, oh -- wait a bit. Those code marks are all usually under the front scope mount! This is how K98k rifles were made: In 1935, Mauser Werke Oberndorf [MWO] used 4D numbers on rifles coded "S/42G," the "S/42" meaning MWO, and the "G" meaning made in 1935. MWO made 192,316 K98k rifles in 1935. JP Sauer & Sohn [S&S] used both 4D [early] and 4DL numbers on rifles coded "S/147/G," the "S/147" meaning S&S, and the "G" meaning made in 1935. S&S made 186,871 K98k rifles in 1935. Erfurter Maschinenfabrik [EMF] PROBABLY used 4D numbers (the records are long gone) on rifles coded "S/27.G," the S/27 meaning EMF, and the "G" as usual. EMF made 3,456 K98k rifles in 1935. Mauser Werke Borsigwalde [MWB] used either 4D or 4DL (no one is certain) numbers on rifles coded "S/243 G," with the "S/243" meaning MWB and the "G" as usual. MWB made 7,671 K98k rifles in 1935. In 1936, MWO made 266,366 K98k rifles using 4DL numbers, on rifles coded "S/42" with the actual date, "1936" stamped on the receiver. S&S made 208,515, stamped "S/147" and "1936." EMF made 23,347, stamped "S/27" and "1936." MWB made 30,305, stamped "S/243" and "1936." Berlin-Lubecker Maschinenfabrik [BLM] started up, and made 7,560 stamped "S/237" and "1936." In 1937, Berlin-Suhler-Waffen und Fahrzeugwerke [BSW] started up, making 21,163 stamped "BSW" [their trademark, NOT a code] and "1937" using 4DL numbers. In 1937, MWO, EMF, MWB, BLM and BSW made 702,261 marked with their codes and "1937." In mid-1938, the coding changed. MWO went from "S/42" to "42," S&S went from "S/147" to "147," EMF went from "S/27" to "27," MWB went from "S/243" to "243," BLM went from "S/237" to "237," and BSW continued to trademark theirs, "BSW." Altogether, they made 950,545 K98k rifles in 1938. In 1938, every maker was using 4DL numbers -- BUT! The first 9999 each year were numbered with NO letter. Correct Serial numbers may show up as 1 to 4 digits with no letter, 1 to 4 digits with a letter to the right of OR below the digits, 1 to 4 digits with TWO letters below the digits, or 5 digits with no letter [a pattern introduced by MWO in 1944] or one letter. When the letter is an "o," that can be confusing. That "o" is NOT a zero. In 1939, MWO made 288,231, and went to 4DLL numbers. S&S made 209,258, EMF made 145,708, MWB made 247,660, BLM made 128,779, BSW made 53,817 [still uncoded and using their trademark until mid-1939, when they merged with Gustloffwerke and started using code number "337," Gustloffwerke Weimar's code number]. Steyr-Daimler-Puch[SDP] began production, and made 246,109 using the code "660." Total? 1,319,562, with 7 makers duplicating each other's Serial numbers. In 1940, they all made another 1,428,735 K98k rifles. During that year, the codes changed again. EMF's "27" changed to "ax" and BLM's "237" to "duv"; but Gustloffwerke Weimar [GWW] kept its "337." SDP changed from "660" to "bnz." In 1941, MWO changed from "42" to "byf," S&S from "147" to "ce" [in a different typeface from that used by the other makers], MWB changed from "243" to "ar," GWW changed from "337" to "bcd" and confusion erupted with rifles marked "ax/ar," jointly produced by EMF and MWB. Total for 1941? 1,255,285. In 1942, Waffen Werke Brunn, Bystrica [WWB] came in, using the code "dou" and making 122,579. MWB and GWW shared production, and used code "bcd/ar." Another 1,342,432. In 1943, Waffen Werke Brunn, Brunn [WBB] came on stream, using the code "dot." The war became really serious, and production jumped to 3,273,247 in total for 1943. MWO went to 5DL numbers, and both S&S and GWW went to 4DLL numbers, as did WWB. In 1944, production was 3,190,125. MWB went to 5DL numbers, as did GWW. WBB used 4DL, 4DLL, 5D AND 5DL numbers in 1944. Experimenters! In 1945, MWO made 108,267, using a new code, "svw" as well as their standard "byf." GWW made 15,223; SDP made 205,915; WWB made 29,217; and WBB made 187,984, using the new code "swp.". It all ended in the spring of 1945. In 1945-46, MWO reopened under French management, producing more K98k rifles - -- for the French -- using the code "svw." Another 29,297 were made for the French using the code "svwMB." Download and print this explanation of the German military "identification" system. Here is your test. Take your printout, and go out to the store that stocks military surplus rifles. Fill in the Make, Model, Manufacturer, Type, Action, Calibre, Shots, Barrel length and Serial number for every surplus Mauser in the place on a blank piece of paper [a "practice Application to Register"] -- just as someone will have to do when a REAL Application to Register is filed for that rifle under Bill C-68. Remember: If you get ANYTHING wrong on your REAL "Application to Register," you will have committed a criminal offence and the maximum penalty is up to 5 years imprisonment. Try this test, and see if it is SAFE for you to fill in a REAL Application to Register -- or if you should send it in marked "Unknown, Unknown..." Dave Tomlinson, NFA FOCUS: Do not LET them abuse you. Make THEM do their own work when it comes to "identifying" rifles and shotguns. It is NOT easy! THEY think it is easy, so let THEM do it! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:52:08 -0600 From: sparkplug@adss.on.ca Subject: FAC renewal Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:14:05 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Re: New Exam required when renewing ?? >Dear Dave, could you please clarify your remarks quoted by Genn >Springer in CFD 965 about the requirement anticipated that >hunters who have a valid FAC now will have to go through another >course and exam when they renew the next time ?? Which would >mean another expense and waste of time. This entire area is a mess -- not an unusual situation with our witless firearms control laws and the untrained people who operate the system. 1. To get an FAC, you must take the Canadian Firearms Safety Course. 2. The government's theory is that if you have an FAC that you got without taking that course, you must take the course before being granted a renewal. (NOTE WELL: If you allow your FAC to LAPSE, then you are subject to the rules for first issuance all over again. You must renew BEFORE the old FAC expires, or comply with the rules as they NOW stand.) 3. However, the issuer is not authorized by the law to refuse to RENEW -- he is only authorized to refuse to ISSUE on FIRST application. Dear Dave; My FAC will soon come up for renewal. Is your description above what should be happening or what is actually happening? If renewal is refused without passing a test etc what official steps, notifications etc should follow? thx in adv Rick Hardy NFA Regional Coordinator "Actively Resisting Social Re-engineering in Upper Canada" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 07:59:17 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Re: Which Provence\Territory is the most conservative? > I am an 18 year old,conservative male American from Pennsylvania. I am >contemplating(when I have the funds),a move to your fair country. I also >am very much for firearms ownership. Our 1st constitutional president, >Washington,said it best(to the effect),"Bearing arms are the people's >liberty teeth". > My question is this: Which province\territory is the most conservative? >In the USA,my guess,it's Utah.When Utah was still a territory,the Mormons >inhabited the area and along with the natives,we were treated terribly by the >US government. The last straw was our president Slick Willy signing over >million plus acres of Utah into a national monument. Under that land was >the largest deposit of clean burning coal in the world. The second largest >is in Indonesia,which happened to be owned by the Lippo Group, that his >close friends, the Riady, owned. He should be impeached. > Anyway,I'll end it here.Thanks for all of your help.I hope someday to >be a citizen,a citizen that is worthy of being called,"Canadian". >P.S.It's very amazing to see after going over you web page that the same >type of stupid liberals infest your country as they infest my country. The >same stupid,out-dated and proven wrong idealogy is recycled and used over >again and how ignorant masses keep taking the blows and 'liking' it with- >out so much as voting what their opinions are. I thank God that we all >live in a free country that determined individuals can change. You are probably looking toward Alberta (AB) or the Yukon Territory (YK). AB has the additional benefit of large oil deposits (tar sands, now coming on line as MAJOR sources of oil). The income to the provincial government from oil cuts our taxes -- no sales tax (except the federal Goods and Services Tax), no inheritance tax, and lower provincial personal income tax. At the moment, our firearms control laws are mostly federal, and in the Criminal Code -- where such regulatory law clearly does not belong. 4 provinces and both territories are taking the federal government to court [Appeal Court of Alberta, one step below the Supreme Court of Canada] on 08 Sep 97, attempting to establish that Bill C-68 -- particularly the sections that require registration of all rifles and shotguns -- cannot be enacted by the federal government, as it is regulation of property. That falls into provincial government authority under our Constitution. Dave Tomlinson, NFA FOCUS: The nation is what WE make it. If we allow a tiny minority -- like the under-3-per-cent that belong to ANY political Party -- too much power, then THEY will make the nation into what THEY want. Participation is NECESSARY. You can't get alterations in a dress you haven't bought! ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #973 **********************************