From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mon Mar 30 20:26:55 1998 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:14:07 -0600 From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #312 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Content-Length: 23129 X-Lines: 539 Status: RO Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, March 30 1998 Volume 02 : Number 312 In this issue: Purolator no, Greyhound yes CFC response to DAT CA to FA conversion More Gun Registeration Re: "Courtney Gibson" Fanaticism over guns risks all our lives Resolution Re: Bill C-68 Ministerial Correspondence Logistics C-68 Petition Competitive shooter visit from States? Frame Registn. Early Registration Lakefield .22 When to Register Items for Sale Re:green-slips Registering, false statements and grinding serial #'s ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:27:59 -0600 From: KERRY_LATHWELL@robelle.com Subject: Purolator no, Greyhound yes Today I tried to get Purolator to ship a handgun, within B.C. to a gunsmith for repair. The lady said that as of Friday March 27th, they were no longer able to ship "restricted weapons" unless they were from the RCMP or other such agencies. (I didn't catch the ones she read to me because I was slightly in shock.) She had a page of information that she was reading from, so she wasn't just making it up. I called Greyhound, who said they would. I took it there, and when I asked for insurance which was probably over the amount they are usually asked for, the guy asked me what was in the box. I told him a restricted firearm. He said that it has to be 1) unloaded and 2) with the action removed. I said sure, and they finished the paperwork for it. The reason I selected Purolator this time was because someone told me that Greyhound would no longer ship restricted, but it seems that as long as you meet their requirements, Greyhound is fine. That's good, because there are not many choices out there. (If you're of a legal mind, yes I did check with my local Firearms Officer to change from Purolator to Greyhoud!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:28:22 -0600 From: "Centre Firearms, Canadian" Subject: CFC response to DAT CA to FA conversion Dear Digest Readers: Issue #227 of the Canadian Firearms Digest was recently brought to my attention. A question answered by Mr. Tomlinson may lead to some confusion and I felt it important to insure that no one was mislead. Mr. Tomlinson was asked about the grandfathering status of full autos, and whether it differed from that of converted automatics. He answered, quite rightly, the question in the affirmative. He then goes on to suggest that if the converted automatic was registered on January 10, 1978, it could be converted back to a full auto, thus allowing the owner to acquire a full automatic. I would strongly caution against this as it is a criminal offence in Canada to make an automatic firearm, by any means including conversion. Section 95.1 of the Criminal Code provides for a penalty of up to 5 years for any person who alters, manufactures or assembles a firearm in order to allow it to fire projectiles in an automatic fashion. I would add that the grandfathered classes are closed in the sense that firearms cannot be added to the class by conversion or otherwise. I hope this information is of assistance. Yours truly, Kathleen Roussel Communications Group Canadian Firearms Centre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:28:15 -0600 From: Juha Askola Subject: More Gun Registeration I started really think about this " unknown " registeration business. I went through the goodies I have in my posession, many of them clearly marked what they are but since english is my second language, I better register them unknown because my spelling sucks. Of course, I don't want to incriminate myself. I also have several old shotguns that were propably made by some blacksmiths of Finland and/ or Sweden. No visible markings left. Then I have couple of Chinese made pellet guns that I used to teach my kids with. Not having too much extra resources, I don't have a chronograph. What the FPS is, I have no idea. All the markings in them guns are in chinese. I quess I'll have to copy them markings down and send them in as is. Gov. is going to have to hire interpeters for this purpose, too bad but I'm still doing my thing as a law-abiding citizen. Chao, Juha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:28:18 -0600 From: "R.J.K." Subject: Re: "Courtney Gibson" Fanaticism over guns risks all our lives > "If those two boys in Jonesboro, Ark., hadn't had access to > guns, four young girls and a teacher would be alive today." > > What happened in Jonesboro, Ark. is a tragedy. It is, however, > a poor argument for tighter gun controls in Canada. If those two > boys were living today in Toronto, they would not have had access > to those guns. Canada already has storage laws to prevent that > exact sort of tragedy. Arguing for more restrictive laws, in the > ******************************************************* I take exception to the statement that a safe storage law would have prevented the incident. Please take note, these boys also stole a van, they could have just as easily run it at a high rate of speed into a crowd of children. There are no laws you could pass to prevent someone hell bent on murder, there are just too many ways you can kill someone.- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:34:44 -0600 From: "Larry J. Going" Subject: Resolution Re: Bill C-68 Following is the resolution submitted to the Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities (SARM) convention March 9 - 12, 1998. It passed the assembly comprising of delegates from the 297 rural municipalities almost unanimously. Dale Forland - ------------- Whereas: The Federal Government has passed Bill C-68 which is geared at property rights and not in pith and substance criminal legislation and plans to begin registry of all firearms as early as October of 1998 and: Whereas: A dangerous legal precedent will be established, prohibiting ownership and possession of legally, acquired personal property and the confiscation thereof by police and: Whereas: Most people in Saskatchewan do not want to register their personal property nor meet further requirements and that non compliance on an individual basis for any reason will result in confiscation of personal property, prohibition of ownership, search and seizure by police, and imprisonment. Be it resolved that: The Government of Saskatchewan take whatever actions necessary to ensure that the implementation of Bill C-68 and the ramifications thereof are not legally binding within the Province of Saskatchewan, including the refusal of the Saskatchewan provincial Justice Department to prosecute charges laid under Bill C-68. Be it also resolved that: The Government of Saskatchewan insist that the Government of Canada grant autonomy to the province of Saskatchewan in all matters involving firearms. Be it further resolved that: The Government of Saskatchewan from an alliance with all other provinces who oppose Bill C-68 requesting that they do the same. - ------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:35:17 -0600 From: Rick Lowe Subject: Ministerial Correspondence Logistics Some information from Pat regarding the import of a Letter to the Minister and the logistics behind it. Add this one to the rest of the fecal matter we can dump back in their laps on the magic first day. Guys, this is "doo-able". The people within the system or who used to work in the system keep telling you this will work. Common sense should suggest the same. Remember what they did to themselves when they simply tried verifying what they already had on file. We have the ability to use the beaurocracy they have used against us so long - the same people in many cases - against them instead. They have provided us and every other Canadian with the means; we know their weaknesses. Very shortly we have to decide - all of us, including the NFA, the Reform Party, the CILA, everybody - to either go on the attack for once or stick our heads in the sand while our asses are in the air yet again waiting to be booted. I have no intention of hanging my hopes on a possible Reform victory in the next Federal election, their belief that turfing an existing system will retain more votes than it will cost once in power, or the Supreme Court to agree with us and toss C-68. I'm tired of unending defensive battles; it is time to go on the offensive and kick some ass in an entirely legal way by simply exercising our rights and eagerness to be compliant with the law. Discussion is fine and necessary, as is the Devil's advocate role. But at some point or other, we either get up and go or we sit down and die. I hate trite crap. But we used to have these "hoohaaa" T-shirts in the regiment that had this written on them: On the Plains of Hesitation lie the bleached bones Of those who, with victory in their grasp, Sat down to rest, and resting, died... DO NOT REST! I think it applies here. Remember, nothing in proceeding with this legal monkeywrenching precludes political efforts, court challenges, playing around with the information on a registration form by doing our damndest to get it exactly right, etc, etc. They all compliment each other. One thing is certain. The absence of a registry does not prevent them from banning any specific firearm or firearms in general any time they think they have the public support to do so. If we don't remove that support and bring chaos to that department, sooner or later they will have the support and the ability to carry it out. Anyways, here's Pat scoop on the Ministerial letter. I'm sure many of you have many pressing questions on your minds regarding concerns that only Allan Rock and Anne McLellen can answer... *** Forwarded message, originally written by Pat on 30-Mar-98 *** Herewith a reply to Rick Lowe's request for some information on how a letter to a minister is handled in the federal government: When a citizen writes to a Minister, the Minister's correspondence staff kicks in to high gear. Every citizen has the right to communicate with Ministers of the Crown -- this is the most basic element of open and accountable government (see the Liberal Red Book I and II....). (Note: Jean WANTS us to be informed; he WANTS to show us how accountable he is...) The Minister's correspondence staff open the correspondence and read it to ascertain the nature of the letter (in some departments, each piece of correspondence is x-rayed to detect letter bombs, fresh cow patties, rotten eggs, etc...). If it is a simple request for public information, the letter is usually sent to the appropriate public information office for a response to be prepared along with the requested information - if the information is not subject to the Access To Information Act or the Privacy Act. If the correspondence is a general congratulatory message (Hey Minister Bob! Loved your speech to the Ladies' Auxilliary in Lower Rubberboot on the weekend at the rubber chicken dinner down at the church!), the letter gets a "Thank you for you concern/kind words/fond thoughts/etc.. Keep voting for us...." reply generated by a staff writer and it may possibly be signed by the Minister in person if the writer is a known party member or known friend of the Minister -- all others get the machine generated signature.... If the letter is a complaint about something, it gets priority treatment all the way from the Minister's Office through the public service to the desk of the public servant who it is alleged knows what is going on. That public servant then prepares a "suggested" reply along with photocopies, attachments and explanatory notes to defend the suggested reply. The suggested reply then works its way back up the bureaucracy and at each step, the suggested reply is scrutinized for political correctness, completeness and appropriateness of the message in light of the particular political context of the issue raised in the original correspondence. The journey back to the Minister's Office can take days and the suggested reply can be handled and sent back (up and down) many times until the message is "just right". The Minister may personally sign or you may get the machine generated signature. Each Minister has a staff of readers and writers whose business it is, to ensure that proper replies are made to each and every letter from concerned citizens. (Note: enough to handle a couple of million inquiries? Who gets an answer and who doesn't?) Exercise your rights of citizenship by asking questions and helping to hold the government accountable to you. Ask a complicated question. Ask a question which involves two or more Ministers. Carbon copy your letter to several other Ministers and Members and Senators -- each will be consulted to ensure your reply is correct and appropriate. It is your right to communicate with your elected representatives and you should exercise your constitutional rights from time to time -- "Use them or lose them!" I have not met too many public servants who enjoy preparing replies to Ministerial correspondence. Pat Warner a tired public servant but an avid shooter... All opinions expressed are those of the writer, etc.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:38:08 -0600 From: Phil Olive Subject: C-68 Petition I have the C-68 Petition on MS-Word (Office 95) If anyone wants a copy my E-Mail address is ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:38:35 -0600 From: Oetcdiehl Subject: Competitive shooter visit from States? Greetings from Alabama. First of all, let me say that any of my Canadian friends are most certainly welcome here in the warm South. You can come to visit, or you can come to stay. There are plenty of good places to shoot, and you will be both welcomed and in good company. Now, on to my question: Assuming that this year after the National Matches in Camp Perry, Ohio that I were to go on to the Fullbore Matches in your fine land, what paperwork is required to safely and legally transport my match rifle (a Winchester/USRAC bolt rifle chambered in .308) there by automobile? What paperwork is required? What paperwork is _recommended_ that may not be required? What hassles should I expect in both directions? Are certain crossings more trouble than others? Is this worth my trouble? Next, I have to wonder what sort of records of this visit are kept on both sides of the border. So to find out, as a foreigner, could I then file a Privacy Act request from the States? A US Freedom of Information Act request could give the corresponding data on this side. It all might be interesting to see what is kept. Just a thought... Diehl Martin NFA Member Huntsville, Alabama, USA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:08:59 -0600 From: BChow2or81 Subject: Frame Registn. Do you recall which CFD issue contained your [DAT] detailed explanation of Frame- only registration, and which one had your suggestions for changing existing conventional (i.e. risky) registrations to Frame only? Many thanks. Bud. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:09:04 -0600 From: Rick Lowe Subject: Early Registration Larry J. Going said: > Here is absolutely my last two bits worth on this subject: > 1. If you register early to try to swamp them, they will eventually > catch up. They will only catch up if their scheme survives the onslaught of data and requests for data, skyrocketing costs and demands for manpower, and a public then being billed for billions where originally they only agreed to the scheme after being promised it wouldn't cost them a thing. If you DON'T register early, they will definitely keep up. By the end of registration, they will have a good percentage of registered firearms in a smoothly functioning system while you have bet the farm that Preston Manning is going to come to power or the courts agree with you. If you lose that long shot, then you're faced with registering anyway at exorbitant prices, or becoming a criminal. > 2. Once your firearms are registered, plan on them being confiscated. > It's just a matter of time. If you don't register your firearms, plan on them being confiscated anyway. It's just a matter of time. Nobody has ever need registration to ban and confiscate firearms, they only need it if they have the political power and will to go door to door getting them. A ban that removes them from public view, eliminates any such thing as a law abiding gun owner, and deals with them as they are found works just as well for their purposes. > 3. I'd rather give up a couple of years hunting than my firearms. I'd rather fight while I can legally do so than allow the government to effectively remove my firearms without it costing them a dime or a vote beyond my own. > 4. If you do register them, why send in payment? The government wants > them registered, not us. Let them shell out the money. Not remitting money and any other way to legally monkeywrench the system certainly doesn't hurt. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:09:15 -0600 From: taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca Subject: Lakefield .22 A young friend of mine brought me a Lakefield Mark II .22 magazine fed bolt-action complaining that it sprayed his face with stuff every time he fired it. He is a left-hander. I cleaned it and shot it with a piece of paper towel over the bolt. With a CB .22 it sprayed cleaning fluid into the towel all along the line where the (exposed) firing pin runs through the top of the bolt. With a .22 LR there was less spray (I suppose it spread to fit the chamber more, or the cleaning fluid was already gone). The chamber looks OK (no obvious damage), so I suspect the bolt is not closing completely against the face of the barrel. This gun is worth, at most, $40 in its present condition, $60 if the stock was refinished and the metal re blued, so expensive reworking is not in question. So, is there a quick fix? If anybody has any ideas please respond privately to Thanks. Taylor Buckner E-mail Research Papers: ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:09:15 -0600 From: Ron McCutcheon Subject: When to Register >There has been a great deal of discussion lately over the merits of when to >register under Bill C-68. >Before the 'deadline' for registration, we will likely go through one more >Federal Election, likely in 2001 or 2002 at the latest. >The next Federal Election will be the most important one in terms of the >fight for property rights in Canadian history---If we choose to make it so. If this fight is to be won, it has to eventually be won in the political arena. Massive early registeration of difficult to identify junkers could show up the warts in Bill C-68 and help Reform win. Ron McCutcheon P. Eng ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:09:18 -0600 From: heibo@barrie-central.net Subject: Items for Sale For various reasons, I am reducing my firearms collection and am offering the following for sale: 1. Swedish Ljungman 6.5x55, built 1943, NFA VG condition with extra stock. 2. Swedish Mauser '96 6.5x55, built 1919, NFA VG condition 3. DWM Mauser '98 (Brazilian mod. 1908) 7x57, NFA VG condition 4. AMT Hardballer, .45 ACP, NFA Excellent 5. Steyr-Hahn, Model 1911(Chilean Army model) 9mm Steyr, NFA Good Should anyone be interested, please reply by E-mail [directly to Moderator] with an offer. Any prospective buyer will have to present a valid FAC. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:13:59 -0600 From: Mike Buhrs Subject: Re:green-slips >>>When I registered a target .22, it took 7 months to get the green slip. >>>The application form became my temporary green slip. This was the >>>understanding of the city police... and it was a common sense reasonable >>>decision. >It just don't happen that way here or in many other areas of Canada. The RCMP in BC for >one will not allow the firearm out of lockup unless the green registration has been received. >My last one arrived in 6 weeks but only because I sent FRAS a complaint that anything over >a month was excessive. I must be really lucky, the longest any of my recent registrations has ever taken is 4 weeks with most being around 2 weeks. A buddy of mine regularly waits 8 -10 weeks. I live in Edmonton and he lives in St. Albert. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:14:03 -0600 From: "Barry Glasgow" Subject: Registering, false statements and grinding serial #'s It occured to me that some may be opening themselves up for prosecution with the "Make: UNKNOWN" declaration. I know that Dave has been advocating against filling this for fear of running up against those funny scenarios where the maker isn't really the one stated on the piece but given as how the judge gets to decide whether you knowingly made a false statement or not, how could someone in good conscience write down UNKNOWN for a rifle that clearly says Winchester right on it ? I wouldn't want to chance it or try to defend my position against a judge who might view such antics unfavourably. Having said that, I will definitely be having some fun with the questions on Model and serial numbers on some of my junk pieces.. The other question that keeps popping up is this thing about batch registration of "up to 10" guns. I know that earlier bulletins from the DoJ had mentioned this but more recent ones merely state "ALL REGISTRATION CERTIFICATES CONTAINED IN AN APPLICATION" so I'm guessing they'd want as many as you'd care to submit. As for when and how many to register, I got to thinking that registering junk would allow us to claim that there are x million guns registered and most owners have stated that they'll wait till the end - so imagine the big honkin' number ready to come down the pipe ? Finally, I couldn't resist putting my two cents into the discussion about defaced serial numbers. I was a juror on a much-publicized murder case here in Ottawa in which the recovered .38 S&W model 19 had been chopped to less than 4 inches (so much for Rock's 110mm law) and its serial number filed down. The RCMP forensics lab were not able to raise the last two digits which made it useless to identify a particular owner but gave enough info to let us know that the black- market gun had once been a police service revolver. Hooray for registration ! Barry Glasgow Woodlawn, Ont. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #312 **********************************