From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Wed Apr 15 12:31:24 1998 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:59:32 -0600 From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #348 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Content-Length: 23074 X-Lines: 533 Status: RO Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, April 15 1998 Volume 02 : Number 348 In this issue: Short barreled firearms Re: C-68 and Polls Re: Security Guards re: Security guards Japan Inc and the disarmament agenda Re: Japanese firearms; bear season So many things..... Re:RCMP Sued Public Control - website Re: Japanese firearms; bear season Letters made to order at a gun show..... a petition against C-68 and _for_ lowering crime Japan's Might (?) Nicholas Davis Article ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:20:58 -0600 From: Peter Cronhelm Subject: Short barreled firearms We all know that it is illegal to cut down the barrel of a shotgun but it is not illegal to afix a factory manufactured short barrel. My question is how is it possible to identify if a short barrel was cut down or manufactured that way. My girlfriend recently bought a short barreled Rem 870 and I noticed that the word "FULL" is stamped into the barrel near the chamber. This shotgun is labelled as a "Wingmaster" and I don't personally believe that it originally came with a short barrel. However I have no proof that the barrel was cut down rather than merely being replaced. That word "full" makes me a bit suspicious for a short, open cylinder bore barrel. Peter Cronhelm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:21:05 -0600 From: "David J. Wiebe" Subject: Re: C-68 and Polls Dave Tomlinson, NFA said: >Call your local paper and ask the price of a half-page ad. It is prohibitive. Already knew that, but we were discussing already expensive polls, so... >>Maybe an advertising campaign without bothering with a poll? Flyers? Mail >>drops? Some way to get the word out to Joe Public, be he gun owner or >>no! >Remember how much effect Joe Public's firm opinion had on the government >in Ottawa when it decided to impost the GST? Well yeah I remember. Mulroney out, Cretin in on the promise of getting rid of the GST. I think that's the way it went (starting to get a little hazy...). >Frankly, enlisting the public is a slow, weak and very expensive way to >influence a Canadian federal government. It wouod be necessary to convince >the political Leader that the public cares ENOUGH about the issue to >influence the way it VOTES. I'm not actually talking about influencing the government. I'm talking about influencing the way people vote, educating them and generally selling Reform. The Reform Party has an excellent platform and we could present to people on more than the basis of their stand on gun control. Do we have to be "single issue voters?" Can't we show the public that the Reform Party has a better plan for CPP? What about taxes? I was just telling a friend of mine I'm constantly surprised by the number of people who didn't know that an elected and sitting member of parliament can be fired, losing (possibly) career and pension, for voting with his conscience or with his constituents, when he votes against his leader. Many don't even believe it. Can we broaden our target audience a bit? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:21:02 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Security Guards > A Loomis security >guard believes that the handgun that they are licensed to carry >is actually specified by legislation (I do not know if this is >provincial or federal). >Does anyone know if this is the case? It is not the law. It is the POLICY of the person who issues the Permit to Carry for a guard. It also happens to be illegal, as the issuer cannot apply a POLICY to all Permits issued. That action moves him from "attaching a condition" relevant to the "safety of the holder or any other person" on the basis of the "particular circumstances" of the appliccant TO "legislating" -- which is well beyond his powers. Dave Tomlinson, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:57:26 -0600 From: Rod Regier Subject: re: Security guards I can only comment on how it's implemented in Nova Scotia, but I suspect the structure is similar in each province. I'm an "interested observer", so I may get a few details wrong. Federal authority to grant licences to carry restricted weapons for "professional" purposes is in the firearms act section of the criminal code. It has zero amount of detail about standards of training, kinds of restricted firearms, etc. That kind of detail is all decided by the bureaucrats (how typically Canadian). In Nova Scotia the Provincial Police Commission sets the standards for what kinds of training/certification compliance is required for company employees, and what kinds of firearms are deemed permissible to those organizations. The CPFO's office interviews each candidate and issues the "professional" carry permit. The kind that I have heard of require that the security guard be in uniform among other conditions. The individual companies own the firearms, and also perform the training. Certification is performed by other non-company provincially-recognized professionals. One of the many unintended consequences of C-68 is that the current commission-mandated sidearm of security companies, the S&W Model 10 4" will become prohibited with grandfathering. Since the Police Commission has already approved transition from revolvers to autopistols for most of the police organizations in the province, the security companies are lobbying for the same equipment. However, they run into the 4" barrel rule there too. In a leap of logic that would make any bureaucrat proud, I've heard it rumoured that since the authority for equipment selection is vested in the Police Commission, it would be permissible for them to authorize commercial security agencies to acquire and carry what will be prohibited with grandfathering weapons (4" revolvers or autopistols). It will be fascinating to see if they can convince the Dept of External Affairs and Revenue Canada to permit importations of such weapons for commercial end-users after C-68 is brought into force. Supposedly they would have the CPFO's office approving of the new registration of such equipment to any of the commercial security agencies that need it. I guess the rules only apply to us poor civilians, not the fair-haired children of the power elite. Image if the big banks could no longer get armed transport services for all their cash because of C-68! The bureaucrats wouldn't let that happen, even if they do need to bend the rules... Just imagine the consternation if such a sly two-step were to be brought into a court case... Of course, such equipment will also have to be imported for many of the policing agencies in Canada, since their officially selected sidearms will become prohibited with grandfathering too (4" revolvers and 4" autopistols). - -- Rod Regier, Software Development bus: (902)422-1973 x108 Dymaxion Research Ltd., 5515 Cogswell St., fax: (902)421-1267 Halifax, Nova Scotia, B3J 1R2 Canada email: RRegier@dymaxion.ca corporate url: http://www.dymaxion.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:57:31 -0600 From: Jim Davies Subject: Japan Inc and the disarmament agenda On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: > Subject: Re: Japan and a disarmed world. > > young police and military. They are fully aware of how powerful their > country was prior to 1945. They know they are an economic powerhouse and > long to become, once again, a military powerhouse. I think the gov't > wants to keep a lid on them and keep the guns away from them, as much as > possible. Of course, they can't disarm the military and police, but they > can minimize their armed strength. Prior to 1945, the military pursued > military objectives, without even consulting the gov't. The gov't was > frequently in the position of playing catchup with events. Instead of > formulating policy, they would be rationalizing military policy. > > It follows that if their own people are disarmed, the rest of the world > should be, too. The military is currently controlled in Japan, but what isn't controlled is the cultural attitudes that pushed them towards their confrontation with America in 1941. They also have an institutionalized state of denial about their conduct in that war. It is a matter of record that Japan is building towards the world largest stockpile of fissionable materials. It is also a matter of record that Japan, usually a passive UN member, has bankrolled the pacifistic disarmament efforts of the ultra-liberal fringe groups in the western democracies. I don't believe that their goal is world disarmament to balance Japanese disarmament. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:57:28 -0600 From: Gord Heins Subject: Re: Japanese firearms; bear season From: "W. Jon McCormick" Subject: Firearms made in Japan Call me naive/ignorant or both, but a buddy just told me that Winchester and Browning are made in Japan Thats why I shoot a Marlin , good old North American knowledge . and damn acurate for a big bullet , [444 cal.] and when I've got to reach out and touch somthing I'll use 270 cal. BSA . OLd stock from England . that can really whip out a 150 gr. nosler b/t . I'am proud of my guns and would like to hear more from other proud powder burners . Did anyone check out the Sudbury News on CTV channel 5 @ 11:00 pm on Tues.. It went out of its way to anounce the opening of bear season and report that "THE ANTI'S say there will be at least 250 orphaned cubs" but said very little about the rebutal by the OFAH . WE have to make sure again that we don't lose another sport . Harris and his MNR Minister gave us the New Game And Fish Act and in this act a hunter can not be harased by a non-hunter . And a non-hunter can not pursue or chase an animal as this is also "hunting" , and they had better have a hunting licence . WE CAN USE THESE NEW LAWS TO OUR ADVANTAGE . every one try and get a copy of the act read up and lets charge the s... out of them. Lets hurt them were it really hurts the , pocket book . Gord Gun Control is the Abillity to Hit The Target ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:57:34 -0600 From: "T.Bennett Finley" Subject: So many things..... [Moderator: Quote marks in the original because of transmission problems. HTB] >1.Today I have mailed a cheque to NFA for $100 and one to Alberta Fish and >Game Association for $100. These are in memory of my Father who died at >Xmas, just three days short of his 95th birthday. Although born in North >Dakota, his parents were Canadian and Dad, along with his three older >brothers, all returned to Canada and remained. He was an avid bird hunter, >particularily upland game, and in the 20's he started a trap shooting club >in Luseland, Sask. The club went defunct in the hard times of the thirties. >When Dad had to move from his home a couple of years ago there was the old >trap in the corner of the garage along with a case of clay pigeons wrapped >in 1929 newspapers. I gave them to the local museum. He taught me to shoot >and hunt as his brothers did with their children and I with mine. Safety >was paramount and there was a never an accident in the entire family. Dad >was disgusted with the government's efforts to control firearms so I think >this is the best way to honour his memory. > >2.I was sorry to see the discussion of Rick Lowe's idea re: registration, >cut off as I found it most interesting. I thought him to be a very clear >and logical writer although I was not totally convinced of his early >registration plan. I do wish he would stay with the digest rather than take >his ball and go home. I know he is right about one thing: most firearm >owners will register, sooner or later, rather than become criminals. I know >I will but likely will register the crap only at first and the best stuff >last, hoping that Reform will win. > >3. Until I joined the NFA and started following this digest, I had simply >quit voting or having anything to do with politics - I guess I had simply >given up, disgusted with all parties and all politicians. Well I did join >the REFORM party and did support the with some money and a little bit of >work. Do I agree with all their policies? No, not by a long shot, but there >is no acceptable alternative and they represent the only chance for real >political change in Canada. Every firearm owner should be willing to join >Reform to win this fight for change. Our system, as it is now, cannot be >called democratic and won't be until we have something closer to >proportional representation. Now we are governed by a party elected by >Ontario people, most of who don't give a damn about anything West of their >Province. If we can't change the system then I would just as soon see >Quebec leave and perhaps the West will then go its own way. > >4. I read here of too many people giving up, believing all is lost. I'll >never give up and I'll never sell my guns (except to buy better ones) until >they come and take them from me. Why give up? Winston Churchill didn't! > >5. No matter which ideas we decide to follow, we still have the same >problem....our knowledge and messages do not get out to the majority of gun >owners. This weekend I was in Regina and went to a range with my son and >his friend. We used a case of clay pigeons( and twice as many shotshells). >It was interesting for two reasons: The friend, although an ardent hunter, >knew absolutely nothing of the new provisions of C-68, nothing of the NFA. >I think we will shortly have a new member after my discussions with him and >I am sending him an memebership form today. While we were shooting the >President of the club came along to check on us. "Member" friend had never >met the President so he had to prove who he was. Fair enough. "Member" >friend had never received any briefing on rules, etc. when he joined. >Apparently the club was no longer allowing members to bring guests to >shoot. The President was aware of the NFA, especially aware of Dave >Tomlinson, but didn't know much else about the NFA, the insurance etc. or >didn't let on he knew. The club had not signed up with the NFA. Kind of >makes you wonder. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:57:37 -0600 From: fhryder@nbnet.nb.ca (fhryder) Subject: Re:RCMP Sued Hi Folks: Here's yet another example of incompetent investigation and excessive use of police force, in the opinion of the judge Mr. Justice Hazen Strange. RCMP face lawsuit over home invasion (liquor raid). Apr 14, 1998 In a front page article the Telegraph Journal announced that the RCMP has been sued by the the victims of a home invasion (police raid for suspected liquor violations) The facts of the case are as published by the Daily Gleaner on Dec 16, 1997 when Judge Hazen Strange threw the Crown's case out of court. That report, for which approval to print has been obtained, may be found on the NBFA web page: I offer no comment on this report but would advise that you read the quotes attributed to Mr Justice Strange, very carefully. Frank Ryder NFA New Brunswick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:59:16 -0600 From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" Subject: Public Control - website Mr. Abell-Smith: The URL which I am sending may have some effect on the sentiments of the participants in your discussions. It impressed me as being very ominous. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:59:14 -0600 From: Alan Harper Subject: Re: Japanese firearms; bear season > Call me naive/ignorant or both, but a buddy just told me that Winchester > and Browning are made in Japan I don't think either are made there now. A lot of companies had guns made there for short periods, some clearly marked, some not. It would take some research to know whether your gun was made there. I have one rifle, which is clearly marked, "Made in Japan". I don't think I have any others, but I haven't done any research to verify that. > Thats why I shoot a Marlin , good old North American knowledge . and damn > acurate for a big bullet , [444 cal.] and when I've got to reach out and > touch somthing I'll use 270 cal. BSA . OLd stock from England . that can > really whip out a 150 gr. nosler b/t . I'am proud of my guns and would like > to hear more from other proud powder burners . I shoot a hvy bbl .280 Rem, built on a P17 action, Fajen stock, built by a friend, before cancer took him, a WWII vet. It likes Win 150 gr PP bullets & IMR 4350 powder. It weighs 10 pounds, not a lightweight, but beautiful to shoot. I put a Harris bipod on it, otherwise left it alone. It was his baby, his favorite rifle. I also like to shoot 30-06. I have bullets ranging from 100 gr to 250, and everything in between. IMR 4064 is my favorite powder for it. I just got a batch of AA2520 to try. I like loads approaching full power, using 110 Sierra to 200 HPBT Sierra. I have a hunting license, but shoot mostly target. I'm a city boy, and not too skilled at stalking. .30 calibre is cheap to shoot. Lots of 147 gr pulled military bullets available at gun shows for about 5 cents each. For best accuracy, I shoot commercial bullets, but you can shoot the 147's all day every day for peanuts. I like to shoot .375 H&H. My favorite load is a 235 Speer pushed by 80 gr of H4350. Not max, but close, and pretty accurate. Recoil with the 235 is not bad. My favorite is a Steyr, model S, with a Swarovski scope. It's pretty hard to beat Austrian workmanship. Bye. Al. ==============Colt - the Ultimate in point & click hardware========= = Al Harper, email - ce331@freenet.toronto.on.ca = = Box 51027, Eglinton Square, Scarboro, Ontario, Canada M1L 4T2 = ===="Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" Appius Claudius the Blind, 281 BC=== [Moderator: This is the kind of discussion "chat" is designed for. Send submissions to HTB] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:59:09 -0600 From: Jim Hinter Subject: Letters made to order at a gun show..... While there is a positive effort required in terms of letter writing, we must be very careful that this does not use 'form letters'. This is exactly what too many of our MP's are already doing. I have had the surprise of receiving 'canned' responses from even Reform MP's. Interestingly, when I filed some letters recently, I found that the wording of a letter from a Reform MP, matched that of a letter from Justice Minister Alan Rock and earlier Brian Mulroney. This had me thinking that perhaps they are spending our tax dollars teaching MP's Underlinglys letter writing 101! Some considerations to keep in mind regarding setting up a computer and printer at a gun show are that at some shows, power is not available. For Example at the Alberta Arms and Cartridge Collectors Show in Calgary this weekend (One of Canada's Largest Shows) there is no provision for electrical power. If you are interested, the article I wrote on letter writing is available in brochure form for distribution at Gun shows. You can e-mail nfa_calgary@iname.com if you would like a copy. Jim Hinter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:58:43 -0600 From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" Subject: a petition against C-68 and _for_ lowering crime The petition is at ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:59:07 -0600 From: "Young, Rick" Subject: Japan's Might (?) A buddy and I were talking last week. He spends a fair bit of time listening to international radio broadcasts during sleepless nights. It seems the top story on the hit list for every country from Australia to Germany was the Japanese economic crisis, replete with predictions of collapse and preparations for bail-out packages. We both found it a little strange that there is virtually no play in the North American media about the possible set of the Rising Sun. Could be the rulers feel they have cause to discourage firearm ownership on an international basis - if their economy can go up the flue, is any government safe from the wrath of the unemployed and hungry? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:59:11 -0600 From: "Marc Thibault" Subject: Nicholas Davis Article Posted to the Toronto Sun 15 April 1998... In your April 13 issue, Nicholas Davis pulls out a few stories about nasty guns in Brooklyn and Toronto. He ends by hoping that C-68 will will "help reduce the number of guns on the street and reduce the access kids and criminals have to them." He doesn't say what it is about C-68 that might achieve this result. Going on data rather than anecdote, Mr. Davis would have found that Brooklyn and Toronto have two things in common: both have major problems with poverty, and both have very few guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. He would have been at a total loss to find any aspect of C-68 that would have changed this or the stories he told us. He would also have found that other cities, where good citizens are allowed to carry guns, have lower violent crime rates than Brooklyn and Toronto. He would have found that teen-aged boys who legally own guns have much less trouble with the law than boys who aren't exposed to guns at all. This data is in the public record and available to any journalist who is curious about the truth. A little integrity might have led him to quote "aged 15 to 19" deaths that weren't salted with suicides. The data makes it clear that access to firearms doesn't affect the rate of suicide - only the choice of method. A little research might also have led him include the fact that this age group suffers and administers more violence - -of all kinds- than any other age group. It might not seem so much as if he deliberately chose this age group for its shock value. He might have found that drowning is more common than being shot, by two orders of magnitude. He might have found my favourite statistic; that a hunter in Canada is much more likely to drown than be shot accidentally. In the end, he might have come to the conclusion that a lot of reasoning people, including many who are not gun-owners, have come to: that is that taking guns out of the hands of good citizens, which C-68 is intended to do, will make matters worse, not better. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #348 **********************************