From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Thu May 21 16:48:41 1998 Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:31:32 -0600 From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #408 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Content-Length: 23046 X-Lines: 605 Status: RO Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, May 21 1998 Volume 02 : Number 408 In this issue: AR-15 lowers FED UP II Rally: RFC: #3 My article Fed-Up Rally possible date change to Sunday Re: Wendy Cukier and Gun crimes down in Toronto Gun Registry Over Budget Re: IPSC about to come under fire in the US. Re: CFC (C-68 and Reg's) Proof of Brain Washing in Canadian Police Association FW: UN and guns - a comparison of opinion re: Reg v. Howarth Packing Heat. Full-auto shootings; Wendy's BS on RCMP stats fiasco; CFC Cost FED UP 11, Don't dilute the rally, please. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:09:39 -0600 From: Ken Pisichko Subject: AR-15 lowers Could someone send me the info of a previous CFD regarding the sale of AR-15 lowers to NFA members for $130. I chucked the original posts and now regret it. I now have decided that getting the lower is a good idea. E-mail please instead of posting it to CFD (something about saving bandwidth...) Ken in Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:09:47 -0600 From: Al Dorans Subject: FED UP II Rally: RFC: #3 Dear Firearms' Owner, May 21, 1998 RFC: #3 The response to the FED UP II Rally has been simply phenomenal! Over 80 groups and businesses have joined and signed on as sponsors. We thank you for your support. As you might appreciate, it is imperative to receive financial contributions right away so that the money will have a direct bearing on the quantity and quality of the Rally program. Organizers are mindful that sponsors expect assurances that their money will not be wasted. Therefore, a full accounting for rally expenses through receipts will be required by the Organizing Committee. When the full Committee is struck, it is expected that any two of the Chair, Treasurer and Secretary will act as signing officers to control Rally funds. Essentially, the Organizing Committee receives contributions, is responsible for those monies, and has the authority to spend those funds as it deems appropriate. Rest assured that Committee members are dedicated firearms' owners who are working hard on your behalf to protect your freedoms, property and recreational lifestyles. At the present time, 3 deposit options are available to you: 1) An interbranch payment at any branch of the CIBC; Transit - 986; Account #1697331; Attention Terri Muus. 2) Mail directly to CIBC, 1518 Merivale Road, Nepean, Ontario, K2G 3J6. Attention: Terri Muus. 3) Deposit directly at CIBC, Cityview Plaza or CIBC, Merivale Mall, Nepean, Ontario, K2G 3J6 Attention: Terri Muus. Please address your cheques and money orders to "FED UP II Rally". To illustrate what we are up against, one newspaper reported that in 6 months the IFAW campaign to ban the commercial seal hunt in Canada raised a staggering $67 million. We invite Canada's 7 million firearms' owners, organizations and other sponsors of the Rally to open their wallets and donate generously, immediately and within their means. In the near future the expanding list of sponsors will appear on the Canadian Firearms' Digest and on Rally literature, in the order they joined as sponsors. Since we have been swamped with an overwhelming number of sponsors, we may not have been able to respond in timely fashion to all of your inquiries. Keep the faith. Karl Schrader and Kingsley Beattie have generously donated their services to address this heavenly dilemma. They can be contacted at the sites below. As well, we are in the midst of upgrading our computers and computer skills. Think about this. In Canada there are about 30 million people, including 16 million voters. In a federal election about 50% or 8 million people vote. All of the 7 million firearms' owners are eligible voters. Hmm! If we can mobilize the sleeping firearms' community, we can swing the next federal election, repeal C-68, and dismiss the rascals that forced this intrusive, wasteful and needless bill upon us. We can also use the same communication networks to support provincial governments that are supportive of our cause. One of our collective challenges is to unite Canada's recreational firearms' community into a massive political voting bloc. Spread the word. mail to: schrader@magma.ca (1-613-224-2025) OR Cheers, kingsley@freenet.carleton.ca (1-613-523-6604) OR Al Dorans, RFC: Ottawa aldorans@magma.ca (1-613-828-8805) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:10:10 -0600 From: M Toma Subject: My article Regarding my article in Cdn Sportsman, Long Range Coyote Medicine. The purpose of the article was to educate cdn shooters and hunters about custom rifles, built for, in this case, long range varminting. By telling cdn hunters what goes into a custom rifle and what you can expect with custom components and accessories I was hoping to inspire more people to consider a custom hunting rifle. I think that purpose was achieved although I must admit the article was edited some because of space limitations. In listing the manufacturers of the components that went into these two rifles, I was fulfilling an obligation to companies that helped out with this project. Of course I would expect that a person wanting to build a custom rifle would order whatever components he wanted through his gunsmith/dealer here in Canada. I personally have a long relationship with some of the companies and their products used in the article. Sadly, we have not much in Canadian goods to offer would be customers. There are no canadian rifle acitons, no scopes, no trigger assemblies, no scope mounts, no die manufacturers, no bullet makers, etc etc. There are two maybe more barrel makers in Canada. I have heard nothing but good about Smith barrels, unfortunately I am not familier with Gaillard barrels. We even have one fiberglass stock maker in town here but I have not seen the product yet, I don't get out that much I know. We have a number of custom gunsmiths deserving of our patronage, that can whiddle out a stock from a wood blank as well. Although wood is not preferred for any accuracy work these days. The point is if you want a custom rifle, it will be a mostly US product, purchased in Canada and assembled by a canadian gunsmith, if you are patriotic to canadian gun dealers and gunsmiths. I hope you are. A custom gunsmith today is largely an assembler of components and parts. Of course the quality of the assembly is what matters if you want your gun to shoot at all well. Get recommendations from previous customers. In closing, the .22-250 Improved featured in the article, was shot on Sunday in the calm of the evening, 8:00pm or so, shooting directly into the sun, prone, using Harris Bipod, 3 shots into slightly less than 2 inches at 535 yards. 55 grain VMax at 3950 fps. I wonder how this baby shoots at half a mile. Gotta try it this weekend. Cheers, Mike Toma [Moderator: That's good shooting. HTB] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:10:13 -0600 From: wildside@connect.ab.ca Subject: Fed-Up Rally possible date change to Sunday Round trip flight Edmonton-Ottawa Direct flight 3 hours 35 minutes. Stop in Toronto add two hours. Stay over Saturday night $641.96 Travel weekdays $2193.50 Sunday looks like the preferred choice for me. Has anyone else talked to their travel agent? Are there cheaper ways to go? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:10:15 -0600 From: "John & Cindy Poulin" Subject: Re: Wendy Cukier and Gun crimes down in Toronto > Peter Kearns wrote;Wendy is a lobbyist, paid (indirectly) by the federal > government to lobby them for tougher gun controls. She and the feds attempt, > (unsuccessfully) to portray her as a 'concerned' activist, representing the > desires of Canadians. In my opinion she is neither. She is a predatory > - ----, interested ONLY in sucking on the federal tit, and devoted ONLY to her > own advancement..... Say, have you ever seen her faithful lieutenant Heidi > Rathjen, and listened to her spiel? Like a mirror of Wendy, loves that > taxpayer money, and even less intelligent than her boss...... (All > pre-requisites for federal service)... > Peter > > [Moderator: And between them they have 4 honorary Doctorates from Laval and > Concordia! HTB] > It sounds like our tax dollars are financing our own destruction. Since she's an employee of ours isn't it time to have a little talk about job performance with her. Besides what Peter wrote, can any one give me some history about her and as her employer an email address to contact her. I want to see if those Doctorates are open for real dialogue and logic or do they run at the first sign of truth. Until the dust settles, John Poulin > Subject: Re: FW: Gun crimes down in Toronto [snip] > Nor is included how many firearms how many were returned to their owners after > discovering the firearms were legally held? > Yes and how many were sold back to the criminals? Until the dust settles, John Poulin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 05:19:36 -0600 From: "Dave Parmeter" Subject: Gun Registry Over Budget [Moderator: Dave sent in the link, I thought the article was important enough that everyone should see it. HTB] May 21, 1998 GUN REGISTRY $40 MILLION OVER BUDGET By SEAN DURKAN -- Sun Media Ottawa Bureau OTTAWA -- The new gun registry is 40 per cent over budget with four months still to go before the program kicks in, the government admitted Wednesday. That has critics claiming the registry will be a money pit for taxpayers and police worrying that budgets for street cops will be cut to help pay for the program. Jean Valin, spokesperson for the new firearms centre, said the estimated one-time cost of setting up the universal registry of all firearms and owners in Canada has climbed from $85 million to $120 million. Valin said the extra $35 million is partly the result of new provisions, for notifying spouses of those who apply for a gun licence and for verifying information provided by applicants. The federal government is also stuck with extra costs because Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and the Northwest Territories are currently refusing to be partners in the national registry program, Valin added. COY ON OTHER COSTS The $120-million figure does not include operational costs once the registry is up and running. The government is remaining coy about these, though. Valin said it will cost more to run the new system than the old one. The total cost of gun control this year will peak at $133.9 million, which includes set-up costs, plus the operation of the old system until the new one kicks in this fall, Valin said. This figure will drop dramatically next year, he added. Valin said the full cost of setting up and running the national registry will be recouped from licence and registration fees over the next five years. Reform gun control critic Garry Breitkreuz accused the government of "playing hide and seek'' with the cost of the new gun registry, noting that a month ago Justice Minister Anne McLellan said the costs were $66 million, and only last week, the federal supplementary spending estimates pegged them at $87 million. "Now we are told it is $120 million, but why should we believe that figure?'' said Breitkreuz, noting some experts warned years ago the registry could end up costing $1 billion or more. Scott Newark, executive director of the 15,000-member Canadian Police Association, said the spiralling costs have him worried officers will be taken off the front lines to run the registry. "We were promised before we endorsed this legislation that it would have no negative effect on police manpower or budgets and we will not quietly stand by and see this promise broken,'' Newark warned. Pierre Gratton, spokesperson for McLellan, insisted the police have no reason for concern. "The promise was made, the commitment is there and it will be kept,'' Gratton said. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:31:10 -0600 From: Dave Kratky Subject: Re: IPSC about to come under fire in the US. > > Subject: Re: CFC (C-68 and Reg's) >I just got off the phone with the CFC, and have requested a copy of Bill >C-68, and the reg's. I was told the OIC's are not available through them, >and I would need to speak to my provincial firearms officer. I asked why >they didn't carry the OIC's, and was instead asked if I would like a call >back from a DOJ legal person. I figured I'd speak to the person and see >what was up. I will be sending a note to Anne MacLennan asking the "how >come?" question. The NFA's position is that the CFC exists, and that its main function is SERVICE to the firearms community. We CLEARLY need copies of those OICs, and therefore any childish contention that it is NOT the CFS's duty to acquire copies and make them available to us is clearly out to lunch. When there is a failure of SERVICE, complain -- to the CFC, to the Minister, and to YOUR MP -- IN WRITING. Dave Tomlinson, NFA Simon says, "If the customer doesn't ASK for ketchup, don't give him any..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:31:19 -0600 From: cougr41@peacenet.com Subject: Proof of Brain Washing in Canadian Police Association [May 21, 1998 GUN REGISTRY $40 MILLION OVER BUDGET By SEAN DURKAN -- Sun Media Ottawa Bureau] (big snip) [Scott Newark, executive director of the 15,000-member Canadian Police Association, said the spiralling costs have him worried officers will be taken off the front lines to run the registry.] Seems to me this man, be he a great guy or an even bigger jerk, really has his head up his butt! Imagine believing the LIEberals. I wonder how he got to his high paying position with the amount of common sense and intelligence he exhibits. I wonder how it is that WE recognized the problems and expenses involved in a firearms registry - and they DIDN'T? I'll even bet he believes the statement from Jean Valin - "This figure will drop dramatically next year" (Hmm.......do pigs really fly? BB) In the end, someone with political pull rounded up all the sheep in that organization and talked and BS'd enough to get them on side. They will live to regret that decision. Looks like the crows are coming home to roost. Get ready for increases in fees to partially cover increasing expenses. Remind me to never hire a man with Scott Newark's "vision". As a very good friend from the east coast said to me last night, "I shakes me head"! Bruce Beswick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:30:57 -0600 From: "Fred Davis" Subject: FW: UN and guns - a comparison of opinion Very interesting info on both these sites... > -----Original Message----- > From: ALERT [SMTP:Sporting.Shooters.Association@adelaide.on.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 8:11 PM > To: ssaa-alerts@adelaide.on.net > Subject: UN and guns - a comparison of opinion > > The UN and guns > > note the focus on civilian firearms... > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Compare above with this research brief for Politicians from the Federal > Parliament Library. > > note the statement that civilian disarmament is not on the agenda.... > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:31:03 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: re: Reg v. Howarth >> HAMILTON -- Scott Howarth says he was "terrified" for his >> life the night he shot three teens breaking into a neighbor's garage. >> Howarth is charged with careless use of a firearm and causing >> bodily harm with a firearm. > >Can anyone update us on Mr. Howarth? Did he or his lawyer contact the >NFA? No contact yet. Can anyone find him and get him in touch with me? Tell him to call (403)439-1394. Dave Tomlinson, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:31:21 -0600 From: Ron McCutcheon Subject: Packing Heat. >Someone in the suburbs may not feel >it necessary to "pack" when walking over to the neighbour's but may feel >it necessary when driving downtown. Exactly. Or at high noon versus 2:00 AM, etc, etc, etc. Ron McCutcheon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:31:27 -0600 From: Jean Hogue Subject: Full-auto shootings; Wendy's BS on RCMP stats fiasco; CFC Cost spiral; Lieberal junket Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca 1. Full-auto shootings (clarification) The two events involving legally-registered machine guns were: 1. Corporal Lortie, killed 3 persons and wounded (I believe) 15 others in the Quebec legislature; 2. The municipal police of Rock Forrest, NOT the Surete du Quebec, killing one labourer, NOT two. As Allan "Alibi Al" Rock: says "... only the police and the military" - -------- 2. RCMP stats fiasco Wendy is complaining that the gun lobby is highlighting only one side of the issue on the RCMP stats -- mentioning only the first Murray letter and not the follow-up "agreement" with the Department of Justice. Ahem. I do not recall Wendy opposing the use of Kellerman's discredited "43 times more likely" argument. Certainly not ever mentioning that Kellerman has systematically stonewalled against all requests for the data he used -- thus preventing any review of his work. Plus the fact that Kellerman published a follow-up study and it is no longer "43 times", it became less than 3. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. It really is ironic when it was Wendy who triggered the whole thing when she requested a sworn affidavit from the astonished RCMP. Hilarious ! - --------- 3. Canadian Firearms Centre spiralling costs Source: May 21, 1998 GUN REGISTRY $40 MILLION OVER BUDGET By SEAN DURKAN -- Sun Media Ottawa Bureau Jean Valin is quoted as saying the following: "Valin said the extra $35 million is partly the result of new provisions, for notifying spouses of those who apply for a gun licence and for verifying information provided by applicants." Comments: The need to verify the information is a direct result of the silly "do-it-yourself" postcard, which relies on gun owners untrained in proper firearms identification to provide the data for the entire system. I does not make any sense to setup a system with bad data, then make another pass to cleanup the data. I may be of the old school, but I always heard that you should be doing the job once, properly on the first time. So the CFC is telling us that they can reverify (at least) 7 million firearms records for a total cost of 35 millions ? At an average cost of $ 5 per firearm ? When the Justice department report shows a cost of about $ 89 for each handgun ? OK then, rather than wait until 2003 to start doing the verification work, just do the verification at the same time as the application is made. "The federal government is also stuck with extra costs because Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and the Northwest Territories are currently refusing to be partners in the national registry program, Valin added ...The $120-million figure does not include operational costs once the registry is up and running." Comment: I am sure the legal nerd Allan Rock can point out to the fine print explaining why his repeated promise of 85 million dollars was very clear and that "operational costs" cannot be included. Also, I remember seeing on the French CBC network a Quebec official estimating at $ 300 million the cost for Quebec alone (I could kick myself for not having noted the time, date and name of the person). "This figure will drop dramatically next year, he added." Comment: Why ? Unless there is a plan to "rightsize" this bureaucacy (massive layoffs), what is it they will stop doing that costs money ? - ----- 4. Source: Montreal La Presse, Wed. May 20, p. B1 "Quatroze parlementaires canadiens crient au racisme a Rome" Gilles Toupin Dubbed the "Tortellini Tour", "Fettucine financial fiasco" by the opposition. The 14 Lieberal MP's travelling in Italy defend this trip and accuse opponents of being racists. The total cost is expected to be in the $50,000 to $60,000 range. (Instead of the alledged $ 800 expense one of these vacationers used to justify his trip, this comes to a much more likely expense of about $ 4,000 per Lieberal.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:31:30 -0600 From: Don Clarke Subject: FED UP 11, Don't dilute the rally, please. My comments and a suggestion in reply to Dave's message... > From: David A Tomlinson > Subject: Re: Fed-Up provincial rallies > >>For those who cannot afford a rally in Ottawa, how about groups going > >>simultaneously to the legislature in their own province as well? > NO. Everything on that one day would DILUTE the coverage of the Ottawa > rally AND the provincial rally. I agree with Dave. Politicians count votes, so the more voters (with kids) in the group, the more impact the group has. And I also think it should be shifted to a weekend, so that more people could afford to attend. If the rally is on a Sunday, I'll be travelling all day Saturday and Monday. (North shore of Lake Superior to Ottawa, 14 hours) I'll be at the rally with wife and kid no matter what day it is, but serious consideration should be given to the fact that most Canadian firearms owners are just plain ordinary working people and simply can't afford to take two or three days off work. For the people who can't make the trip, how about organizing a massive fax campaign that will overload the Liberal's fax machines? Say, at 12 noon Ottawa time everybody starts sending faxes that explain why we don't like, want or need C-68 and/or spineless Liberal MPs. In fact, we should maybe send the faxes to the Ottawa newspapers instead of the Liberals. The Lieberals already ignore us, but the papers would be forced to take notice if they went through a weeks fax paper budget in a couple of hours... Don ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #408 **********************************