From - Fri Jun 5 14:45:49 1998 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 05:51:21 -0600 From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #424 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, June 5 1998 Volume 02 : Number 424 In this issue: Gov't Computerised Records Security Rally Date City of Regina Police Service - Firearms Registration Possibly interesting report Auditor General Will Not Audit Costs of C-68 Reform National Assembly [none] Safe Bet: Firearms for Sale Re: Fund for Gun Shows & Gun Dealers this is just a short note... one more try a final try Where is the Digest Missing Digests From the moderator Where's the Digest Missing Digests Auditor General and the DOJ Toronto Sun editiorial Police at Gun Show ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 18:34:52 edt Subject: Gov't Computerised Records Security From: Jim Davies > [more on the latest government triumph-- ViCLAS] > > --- Volunteers get crime details --- headline > > The RCMP is so short of people to run its computer system for tracking > serial killers [ViCLAS] that it now uses volunteers and gives them > access to sensitive details on criminal investigations... > > ...once cleared, the volunteers, who do mostly data entry, have > access to confidential information on rapes, murders, and other > crimes... > > ... Johnson said the RCMP's Violent Crime Linkage Analysis System > (ViCLAS) lacks the staff to keep pace with the workload in most > provinces... > > "Winnipeg has done that in a big way," he said. "They've got something > like 10 volunteers..." > > ... they have access to the ViCLAS booklets, which > may contain highly sensitive information -- including "key fact" or > "hold back" evidence. This is evidence crucial to solving a crime, > such as details known only to the suspect and police detectives. > > The RCMP's ViCLAS Web site on the Internet states that investigators > are sometimes reluctant to put their cases on the system for fear > crucial evidence will be disclosed to the wrong people. > > Also of concern, Johnson said he suspects ViCLAS has a higher "error > rate" as a result of using volunteers. > > Yet another government program mired in ineptitude and waste. Could this > be a template for C-68 gun registration? Would they input bad data? > Would they create ghost rapes and gone criminals? Would they use > volunteers? Would security by laughable? Would it be a colossal waste of > time and money? Would they deny everything? Would the perpetrators be > rewarded with promotions and pensions? > > Yes, I am cynical, but am I cynical enough? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 18:44:28 edt Subject: Rally Date From: "Moore Vision" > It is to bad that the Sunday date was not picked so the ordinary working > Joe, could go without loosing to much time off work. It would be nice to > know why Sunday was not picked. > > > Leo Moore > Sussex, N.B. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 18:49:03 edt From: "Larry Luzny" Subject: City of Regina Police Service - Firearms Registration > > Though this is a rumor, I understand that the City of Regina Police Service > will not be in the firearms registration business as of October 1, 1998. It > is my understanding that the RCMP will take over the firearms registration > duties for firearms owners in Regina. It is my understanding that the RCMP > wanted to second (pay the costs of) the City of Regina Police Service > Firearms Registation Unit to assist them, but there was no interest > expressed on the part of the members of the Unit. > > Accolades to the City of Regina Police Service. Its good to know that > common sense still prevails. Condolances to the RCMP. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 18:52:58 edt From: Rod Regier Subject: Possibly interesting report http://www.canadianfirearms.com/orientations/ccaf/rapports/med_en.html MEDICAL COSTS OF FIREARM-RELATED INJURIES: A PILOT PROJECT IN ALBERTA Injury Prevention Centre Edmonton Edited by Joanne Godin Words that Matter Inc. April 1996 TR1996-1e This study was commisioned by the Canadian Firearms Centre, Department of Justice Canada. -- Rod Regier, Software Development bus: (902)422-1973 x108 Dymaxion Research Ltd., 5515 Cogswell St., fax: (902)421-1267 Halifax, Nova Scotia, B3J 1R2 Canada email: RRegier@dymaxion.ca corporate url: http://www.dymaxion.ca [I'm sure this is the same "study" that found less than 2 cents of every 100 medical dollars was spent on "firearms related" injuries, which included all self inflicted injuries including suicide attempts... -ed.] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 05:13:15 edt Subject: Auditor General Will Not Audit Costs of C-68 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assist. 1" April 22, 1998 - Breitkreuz writes Auditor General requesting an audit to determine: "What will Bill C-68 Cost Taxpayers?" May 15, 1998 - Denis Desautels, Auditor General of Canada responds with his reasons for not doing an audit at this time. May 21, 1998 - Breitkreuz asks the Auditor General to reconsider his decision. June 1, 1998 - Breitkreuz and Auditor General meet. Auditor General explains that his office does not have the authority to audit future government expenditures. HERE'S A COPY OF THE REPLY GARRY RECEIVED FROM THE AUDITOR GENERAL FOR CANADA EXPLAINING WHY HIS OFFICE WILL NOT BE DOING AN AUDIT TO DETERMINE WHAT BILL C-68 WILL COST TAXPAYERS. 15 May 1998 Dear Mr. Breitkreuz: I wish to thank you for your letter of 22 April 1998 and the attached detailed background material relating to Bill C-68. I appreciate that you have serious concerns about the merits of this legislation. Clearly, there is an on-going public and parliamentary debate between the proponents and opponents of the firearms control program. The issues you have raised contribute to ensuring the merits of the legislation are reviewed by Parliament. You have requested that we initiate a full-scale review of the firearms control legislation, particularly the legislation and regulations scheduled to come into force in October 1998. After careful consideration I have concluded that we cannot readily carry out this audit. The reason is that your request would involve my Office commenting directly on the merits of government policy and of legislation approved by Parliament. Traditionally, this has not been the role of my Office in our parliamentary system. An additional difficulty would arise because our audit authority only covers the federal government. Since the implementation of the firearms control legislation is the responsibility of other levels of government, we would need to obtain the active co-operation and assistance of at least the major jurisdictions. As you are aware, several provinces are involved in court challenges to the legislation. I understand you have a desire to have your concerns addressed at this time. However, I believe that to conduct an audit at this time would be a major departure from my Office's role within our parliamentary system. I wish to assure you that we will consider conducting an audit of federal government responsibilities one sufficient time has passed for the new legislation and regulations to be fully implemented. I wish to thank your for your support of my Office and your interest in our work. We are always interested in hearing the views of Members of Parliament so that we may consider them in our audit plans. Yours sincerely, L. Denis Desautels, FCA Auditor General of Canada HERE'S A COPY OF GARRY'S LETTER TO THE AUDITOR GENERAL ASKING HIM TO RECONSIDER HIS DECISION May 21, 1998 Mr. Denis Desautels Auditor General of Canada 240 Sparks Street HAND DELIVERED Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0G6 Dear Mr. Desautels: Re: What will Bill C-68 Cost Taxpayers? Reference is being made to my previous letter dated April 22, 1998, my four fax updates and your reply dated May 15, 1998. Deeply disappointed, is how I felt when I read your letter refusing to carry out an audit on what Bill C-68 will cost taxpayers. I am writing you today to request a personal meeting at your earliest convenience and to respectfully request you to reconsider your decision. After re-reading your letter carefully, I think there has been some misunderstanding of my original request. I did not intend for you to assess the "merits" of the legislation, I only want you to determine what Bill C-68 will cost taxpayers. I apologize for this misunderstanding and would like to meet with you personally to clarify the type of audit I believe is necessary to restore the public's faith in the information being provided (or not being provided) by the Department of Justice. Based on the evidence that I provided with my original request, the public and Parliament were misled with respect to how much Bill C-68 would cost during the debate in 1995. Today, in the Ottawa Sun an article by Sean Durkan ("New gun registry cost shooting up" - May 21, 1998) states: "Jean Valin, a spokesman for the new firearms centre, said the estimated one-time cost of setting up the universal registry of all firearms and owners in Canada has climbed from $85 million to $120 million. The $120 million figure does not include operational costs once the registry is up and running. The government is remaining coy about these, though. The total cost of gun control this year will peak at $133.9 million." During the interview Valin told Durkan that they didn't provide the Standing Committee on Justice with these new figures last month because Peter MacKay, MP didn't ask the right questions. So the Department of Justice will tell a newspaper reporter but not Members of Parliament. Nor will the public understand how the department can claim that the total start-up costs will be $120 million but this fiscal year alone the department will spend $133.9 million. Nor does it clarify if this includes expenditures by the RCMP and other so-called "departmental partners." So the cost has risen from $85 million to $120 million to $133.9 million this year. If a private company had made a 41% error or 57% error in estimating the costs of a new project the shareholders would have every right to think they had either been purposely misled or the directors operating the company were incompetent. Do the public shareholders in this Department of Justice project not have the same right to know what the actual costs will be including "operational costs?" Only the Auditor General of Canada has the authority and the resources to find out what the total costs will be. Will you provide this service for Canadian taxpayers? By their own admission the department is misleading the public and Parliament with respect to the real and total cost of implementing and operating Bill C-68, the Firearms Act. We can leave our debate of the "merits" of the legislation for another day. Right now taxpayers need to know how much it's going to cost. Please help us uncover the truth. I respectfully request a private meeting and also ask you reconsider your decision. I will not release your letter to my constituents until we meet to discuss this matter further and you have made it clear that your initial decision is final. Sincerely, Garry Breitkreuz, MP Yorkton-Melville ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 05:26:19 edt Subject: Reform National Assembly From: CILA To all CILA participating organizations: I have just returned from the Reform Party National Assembly and have made the following observations. The Reform Party is still solidly behind Canadian firearms owners and their struggles against restrictive firearms laws. There was a very large presence of the firearms community in attendance at the National Assembly. Reform MP's, Jack Ramsey, Garry Breitkreuz, Inky Mark, Dr. Jim Pankiw and many others all expressed their solidarity with the firearms community. In fact, the firearms control debate was addressed in the speeches of several Executive Councillors. These MPs, and the National Executive Committee jumped through hoops in an effort to get the September 22nd rally information on to Reform's agenda. Donna Ferolie was permitted to address the assembly on a "point of information" and received an enthusiastic response to our announcement of the upcoming Fed -UP II rally. A detailed report will be submitted as the Leduc assembly. Tony Bernardo Administrative Director Canadian Institute for Legislative Action ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 05:38:06 edt Subject: [none] From: "Gary Cross" > Hello, anyone out there! I have been trying to take my name off the chat = > mailing list for the past two weeks, I have sent around twenty messages = > to majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca but still receive about 10 to 15 = > messages a day. I would appreciate it if you would not send anymore = > messages. > Thank you very much. crossg4@cadvision.com=20 > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 06:09:56 edt Subject: Safe Bet: From: Ron McCutcheon >I think I've come up with a really cheap way of >getting journalists to learn about "gun control" in Canada! I just >offered one Calgary Sun columnist $500 if she could legally buy, >register and take home a handgun in one month, starting from scratch (no >FAC). That would be a no-brainer here in Toronto. The police hold all handguns until you have the green slip. That usually takes about a month, not even counting the 4-6 months it takes to get an FAC. Ron McCutcheon P. Eng mccutcrg@mail.rose.com Good gun control is a keen eye and a steady hand. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 18:07:29 edt Subject: Firearms for Sale From: "H. Taylor Buckner" As I mentioned, I am moving to Vermont later this month, and some firearms in my collection are not acceptable in the United States for one reason or another. I have asked my friends at the "G4 Research Institute" to sell these for me on consignment. If you would like to see photos of the firearms, prices, and the address for G4 click on The photos are fairly big, so you might want to go get a coffee while they are downloading. Taylor Buckner E-mail Research Papers: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 18:22:21 edt From: Bill Rantz Subject: Re: Fund for Gun Shows & Gun Dealers I support this only if handled by the NFA. Bill Rantz > In talking to a gun collector and dealer, he mentioned that a fund > should be created to help with court costs that will be incurred by gun > show sponsors as well as gun dealers if/when C-68 regs come into force > this fall. Some of them are bound to to be charged with breaking one or > more of these provisions. > > This dealer suggested all gun shows should add one dollar to their > admission price that would go towards this fund. A sign at the door > could explain what the extra dollar is for. The fund would be > administered by the dealers themselves, or through the NFA if they so > desired. > > What are your feelings on this? > > Larry Going > Sask. President, NFA > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:44:03 -0600 From: Skeeter Abell-Smith Subject: this is just a short note... This is just a quick test message. Please don't reply to tell me you received it. Just ignore it. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 16:09:09 -0600 From: Skeeter Abell-Smith Subject: one more try This is just one more attempt (2)... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 16:10:39 -0600 From: Skeeter Abell-Smith Subject: a final try just one more attempt (3, digest)... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 19:38:24 edt From: Andy Krywonizka Subject: Where's the digests? I haven't received the CFD for the last couple of days. Did something go down? What's going on? Good shooting, Andy K. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 20:55:46 edt From: Faith Butticci Subject: Missing Digests I have not received anything on the lists for about 4 days. Is nothing going on or do I have a problem? Bill Butticci Kelowna, B.C. I do not know if I am getting through, but I am trying. DJP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 05:20:55 edt From: "david parry" Subject: From the Moderator I finally have most of the bugs worked out and everyone should now start receiving the Digest on a regular basis. If you submitted a letter and it does not appear in the next two days, would you please resubmit it for publication. A big thanks to Skeeter for all his help. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 05:24:04 edt From: Andy Krywonizka Subject: Where's the digests? I haven't received the CFD for the last couple of days. Did something go down? What's going on? Good shooting, Andy K. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 05:10:53 -0600 From: Faith Butticci Subject: Missing Digests > I have not received anything on the lists for about 4 days. Is nothing > going on or do I have a problem? > > Bill Butticci > Kelowna, B.C. > I do not know if I am getting through, but I am trying. DJP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 06:16:22 edt Subject: Auditor General and the DOJ From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assist. 1" Here are three motions Garry and Jack Ramsay have introduced: 1. May 25, 1998 - Moved by Jack Ramsay, MP (Crowfoot): Pursuant to section 18 of the Constitution Act, section 4 of the Parliament of Canada Act and section 108(1)(a) of the Standing Orders, this committee send for the Minister of Justice to discuss the discrepancies in costs associated with the Firearms Registry. 2. May 25, 1998 - Moved by Jack Ramsay, MP (Crowfoot): Pursuant to section 18 of the Constitution Act, section 4 of the Parliament of Canada Act and section 108(1)(a) of the Standing Orders, this committee send for all papers associated with the costs of the Firearms Registry. 3. June 3, 1998 - Moved by Garry Breitkreuz, MP (Yorkton-Melville): Pursuant to Standing Order 81(7) and 81(8), the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights shall consider and report to the House the expenditure plans and priorities in future fiscal years of the Department of Justice with regards to the Canadian Firearms Registration System Project. Dennis Young Parliamentary Assistant ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 05:51:01 -0600 From: lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Subject: Toronto Sun editiorial Toronto Sun editorial >From can.talk.guns >Canadian Media have tended to be pretty hostile, but an >increasing number are beginning to actually use their grey >cells. Diane Francis, Peter Worthington - welcome Douglas >Fisher. > >See his 3 June "A shot in the dark" column in the Toronto >Sun or > http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/dfisher.html lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Peace River, Alberta, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 06:23:08 edt Subject: Police at Gun Show From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assist. 1" Police take shot at gun law Plan to confiscate firearms angers former supporters of registry Mark Gollom The Ottawa Citizen The federal government's proposed gun registry jeopardizes the rights of Canadians by allowing the confiscation of firearms without compensation, the head of the Canadian Police Association charges. Until now, police have generally been supporters of the new gun law. In a letter to Justice Minister Anne McLellan, released to the Citizen, Scott Newark, executive officer of the police association, says gun registration will supply important safety information to officers and be an extremely valuable tool in the detection of stolen or smuggled firearms and the prosecution of related crimes. But the registry, scheduled to come into effect Oct. 1, will be compromised unless certain issues -- including the government's right to confiscate 20,000 to 30,000 short-barrelled weapons -- are addressed, he states. "We were nothing short of amazed to hear questions of constitutionality concerning confiscation without compensation of property previously lawfully acquired swept aside as non-existent," says the letter, dated June 3. And ignoring the rights of arms dealers, whose co-operation is critical in the verification, transfer, sale and registration component of the law is "unwise in the extreme," he warns. He wonders how the government can confiscate legally acquired weapons from law-abiding gun owners but still refuse to gather DNA from criminals or those charged with criminal offences. "For a department and Government that cannot bring itself to take a Q-tip swab from a convicted rapist, you appear to have little difficulty confiscating firearms without compensation," the letter charges. "Perhaps you might transfer counsel on the firearms file to the DNA Data Banks file where we could all benefit from this rare Charter courage." Reform MP Garry Breitkreuz, who released the letter to the Citizen, applauded Mr. Newark for addressing the issue of property rights and also criticized the DNA Data Bank policy. "The government says it's a violation of human rights to do this. Well, good grief, what's confiscation of firearms? And these are law-abiding people they are doing it to," Mr. Breitkreuz said. Guns should not be retrieved by search and seizure methods but be handed over on a voluntary basis, Mr. Newark strongly urges. The letter expresses "grave concern" that the Justice Department plans to use the the decaying Canadian Police Information Centre (CPIC) for the computerized gun registration system, pointing out that one department official refers to CPIC as the "black hole" of the registration system. The under-funded CPIC, a computer system that keeps track of Canadians with criminal records, is in dire need of a $150 million to $250 million upgrade, without which it will "compromise the viability" of the new firearm registration system, the letter claims. "That the federal government has allowed ... (the system) to decay to this state is deeply disturbing. That it now seeks to add yet another, albeit desirable, feature to it without discharging its primary duty by fixing that which is in need of repair, is worse," the letter states. The letter also criticizes the requirement that police get a warrant to obtain a gun applicant's forms from the Canadian Firearms Officer if that same firearms officer has asked police to investigate the applicant. "Having to get a warrant to seize information from the official asking you to find the information is a ridiculous bureaucratic waste of time and money, even by Canadian justice standards," the letter states. Instead, consent for the procedure should be included on the application, the letter recommends. Mr. Breitkreuz lauded the letter for raising some excellent points, but disagreed that the new registry could be a valuable tool. "Maybe there would be some very, very, limited use to this, but it's not cost-effective," he said, adding that Mr. Newark is looking at the issue from a police perspective. "As a parliamentarian, I have to look at something that will decrease crime and make us all safer, and the registration system can't do that," he said, noting criminals will not register their guns. Mr. Breitkreuz dismissed the claims by registry proponents that officers approaching a home will be safer because they will now know whether an occupant has a gun. "The police have told me there's no way they are gong to trust this system," he said. The money should instead be poured into policing resources, a DNA registry system and shelters for abused people, Mr. Breitkreuz said. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #424 **********************************