From - Mon Jun 8 08:34:39 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10623 for cdn-firearms-digest-out; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:50:12 -0600 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:50:12 -0600 Message-Id: <199806071150.FAA10623@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #426 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: RO X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, June 7 1998 Volume 02 : Number 426 In this issue: Quotable Quotes Dangerous Goods Long Distance Affinity Plan might not be able to attend FED-UP 11 due to Libernazi activity Intresting Citizen Article Fwd: C-68 Arrived Today BCTV Coverage of C-68 Costs Unintended Consequences Anti Civil Rights Drivel The Two Cent Report Neat Firearms Links Do I Need an FAC Problem With the Digest Re: Question Period Intended Consequences Quote Canadian Shooting Sports News: FRAS Public interest and gun shows Challenging Lyn Cockburn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 18:15:49 edt From: "david parry" From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assist. 1" Given the revelations at the Canadian Firearms Centre over the last few months a responsible firearm owner passed on the following quote: "In the desert things find a way to survive. Secrets are like that too. They poke their way up through the sands of deception so that men may know them." X-Files Garry used this quote in a letter he wrote to all Senators while they were approving Bill C-68: "There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people." Vice-President Hubert Humphrey, May 1, 1965 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 98 18:22:34 edt Subject: Dangerous Goods Subject: Dangerous goods I don't think retail consumer goods ie. cans of gunpowder are regulated under the TDG Act, otherwise stuff like bleach, drain cleaners, insecticides, etc. would need TDG manifests when being transported home from a retail store. Bob Lickacz NFA Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 04:57:58 edt Subject: Long Distance Affinity Plan From: Bruce Mills [sorry if this shows up twice] Howdy: Would some kind soul please send me info on the NFA-Telus(?) long distance affinity plan? I've tried to dig it up online, but can't seem to find it. Toll-free contact number would be nice, any rate info would be good as well. Many thanks, Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:02:22 edt From: Jake Lemay Subject: might not be able to attend FED-UP 11 due to Libernazi activity I will be attending a Vehicle Technician QL-5 course at CFB Borden from Aug 98 to Feb 99. For this reason I will probably not be able to attend the FED-UP 11 rally in Ottawa. Typically, leave is not granted to military members on course unless there is some family emergency. I can appreciate that but at the same time I was hoping the rally would be on sunday so I could attend. Regardless, the date seems set for 22 Sept 98. Help me draft a letter to acknowledge I want to attend the rally. I would appreciate any support. If there are no suggestions, at least tell me where to send a small donation so that someone can go in my place. Maybe they could wave around an unapproved leave application or something. Regards Jake Lemay CFB Winnipeg jake-1@netcom.ca (204) 488 2640 REMEMBER: Legislation is not dangerous but in the wrong hands it is lethal to your freedom! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:04:09 edt Subject: Intresting Citizen Article From: kdesolla@cyberus.ca (Keith P. de Solla) http://www.ottawacitizen.com/national/980605/1762639.html Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng - NFA Field Officer kdesolla@cyberus.ca http://www.cyberus.ca/~kdesolla/eohc.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:06:43 edt Subject: Fwd: C-68 Arrived Today From: "rod mcbeath" Resend of a previous note. If I by chance had missed seeing it, sorry... Date: Friday, May 29, 1998 18:48:52 From: rmcbeath To: rifle Subject: C-68 arrived today... Well, I received my copy of C-68 today. The sender and return address are: Canada Communication Group A St. Joseph Corporation Company Operations, Distribution, Logistics Services For a return address, all it has is Ottawa, and a postal code. Who is this group, and what is St Joseph Corporation? Also, they are presently out of the reg's, plain language guide, and "Backgrounder March 98" They are out, and will not print any more, "The new firearms brochure". Mailing was $2.05, with two more packages (at least) to come. Say $4.00 plus handling. If every firearms owner requests a copy of each, say once a year (if only to keep up with the OIC's and reg's), that is $28 million plus, not including the cost of handling and printing. Say 30 to 40 million with everything. This is a huge chunk of Al's "only $85 million". I only wish we could get every firearms owner to request copies of this information. Perhaps a form letter could be available at the shows with the people walking by only having to fill in the address. These letters could then be bulk mailed to the CFC to request the information. I'm willing to draft a letter if anybody wants to use it at the shows... (although I'd probably like to have DAT or somebody similar to vette it prior to use...) rod ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:12:22 edt Subject: BCTV Coverage of C-68 Costs From: Charles Stansfield David Parry asked if anyone had seen the above piece on BCTV last night -- I did, and for once, I think that Tony Parsons (the Anchor, for all you non-B.C. types) did a decent impression of Balanced Journalism. No, it wasn't *as* balanced as I thought it *could* have been, but at least this story didn't have the BCTV "body-language" editorializing that it is infamous for. Without rolling his eyes, emphasizing words in a sarcastic or demeaning manner, or having inflammatory anti-RFC pictures or footage in the background, Mr. Parsons told the audience about how the Gun Registration Program was originally going to cost 85 million dollars, and how now, without a single gun being registered, and not likely to be for another six months, the costs had risen to 135 million bucks. The emphasis was on "taxpayers' money", or as BCTV's Parsons put it, "your money/tax dollars". A segment featuring Anne McLellan was shown, wherein she defended the cost overrun as being due to (paraphrased, not exact quotes) "several provinces having dropped out of the registration scheme, and Ottawa having to cover the costs for these provinces". Although BCTV did not go after these lame and elusive comments made by the Minister of Justice and the albatross that her predecessor has hung around the neck of the Canadian taxpayer (as it has in other political scandals), we in the RFC should be encouraged that our message is FINALLY getting out among the People. Although this might only seem like BCTV is giving this government scandal story fair treatment, it goes much deeper than that: for BCTV, the King of the Puff-Piece and the Poor Little Victim story to actually devote TIME to balanced reporting of this scandal, then you KNOW that the Public has gotten a tad aroused, and is making a few waves! BCTV has always known which side its bread is buttered on. You can *bet* that the way Tony Parsons reported this story was not the way he would have *liked* to portray it, but instead was mindful of the mood of the audience. The last shot in the piece was of a youngster in a rural setting shooting a rifle under the watchful eye of an adult. After the camera returned to Parsons, he did not do the usual "mugging" to make his position crystal-clear to the viewer. He was *neutral*, as an impartial chronicler of news events should always be. We must *all* keep up the PRESSURE to ensure more balanced media reporting country-wide by *all* those reporters whose views influence so many listeners', viewers' and readers' opinions. Imagine! Having to be grateful for fair and just treatment! Charles Stansfield [This only appeared to be from me, but was from another subscriber. DJP] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:13:58 edt Subject: Unintended Consequences From: Robert Canby > > Unintended Consequences, a hardback by John Ross, is little short > of inspirational reading for those of you who retain respect for > the individual in society. > It is available at > http://www.books.com/scripts/search.exe?/adv~0/frame~4 > > for a price of US$20.21. > Highly recommended reading. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:16:52 edt Subject: Anti Civil Rights Drivel From: Rod Regier http://www.crime-prevention-intl.org/english/what/responsibility/065.htm FIREARM REGULATION AS A PREVENTIVE STRATEGY (CANADA) etc.. -- Rod Regier, Software Development bus: (902)422-1973 x108 Dymaxion Research Ltd., 5515 Cogswell St., fax: (902)421-1267 Halifax, Nova Scotia, B3J 1R2 Canada email: RRegier@dymaxion.ca corporate url: http://www.dymaxion.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:15:21 edt From: "H. Taylor Buckner" Subject: The Two Cent Report MEDICAL COSTS OF FIREARM-RELATED INJURIES: For those who have not been following it, the report on the Medical Cost of Firearms Related Injuries came out a couple of years ago. What they found, counting every medical cost they could think of, and adding in estimates of costs they couldn't measure, was that gunshot wounds (mostly from unsuccessful suicide attempts) in Alberta cost TWO CENTS OUT OF EVERY 100 DOLLARS SPENT ON HEALTH CARE IN ALBERTA. They didn't emphasize the two cent cost in the report, as a matter of fact they failed to calculate it, so I looked up the Alberta heath care expenditures and did the calculation for them. So anytime somebody brings up the horrendous cost of treating firearm injuries, just say, "Oh you mean the two cents per 100 dollars of health care that the Justice Department found firearms injuries cost?" Taylor Buckner ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:18:19 edt Subject: Neat Firearms Links From: Rod Regier http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/moenl/guns.htm -- Rod Regier, Software Development bus: (902)422-1973 x108 Dymaxion Research Ltd., 5515 Cogswell St., fax: (902)421-1267 Halifax, Nova Scotia, B3J 1R2 Canada email: RRegier@dymaxion.ca corporate url: http://www.dymaxion.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:22:22 edt Subject: Do I Need an FAC From: Darlene Clark This might be a dumb question but, my husband and I go to the rifle-range. I don't have an FAC, can I legally use his rifle? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:24:47 edt Subject: Problem With the Digest From: "Marcia Little" Is there a problem with the digest . I haven't received mail since May 28 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:36:02 edt Subject: Re: Question Period From: Alan Harper }Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today it is reported }that }this government will be confiscating firearms from law-abiding citizens }and gun dealers without compensation. Can the Parliamentary Secretary to the }Minister of Justice tell us whether this government will be confiscating }firearms? } } }We are also committed at the same time to the respect of law-abiding }Canadian gun owners. Therefore, after the minister met with a user group, }put together a special amnesty to respond to the concerns of dealers }raised by the executive director of the Canadian Police Association. }There will be an amnesty for law-abiding Canadian citizens. Wow, an AMNESTY! So we can turn in our guns and get nothing for them. That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I don't see an answer to the question of confiscation. And what's that other remark, "committed at the same time to the respect of law-abiding gun owners"????? Say what? What the hell does that mean? Respect has to be earned. Don't sh*t on me and expect respect. The Minister met with "a user group"? Which user group is that? How many user groups are there? Who are they? Was that the user group chaired by Wendy? Bye. Al. ==============Colt - the Ultimate in point & click hardware========= = Al Harper, email - ce331@freenet.toronto.on.ca = = Box 51027, Eglinton Square, Scarboro, Ontario, Canada M1L 4T2 = ===="Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" Appius Claudius the Blind, 281 BC=== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:39:56 edt Subject: Intended Consequences From: Alan Harper > Does anyone know the source of the quote: > "Freedom comes out of the end of a gun barrel"? > > Bob Lickacz > > NFA Edmonton A quote from Mao Tse-Tung: "Every Communist must grasp the truth, 'Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun'" Selected works (Peking, 1961), vol II. Problems of War and Strategy, ii, 6 Nov. 1938. Mao was noted for his understanding of political power. Another of my favorites, I believe it was Hermann Goering, said, "Culture! When I hear the word 'culture', I load my revolver!" Bye. Al. ==============Colt - the Ultimate in point & click hardware========= = Al Harper, email - ce331@freenet.toronto.on.ca = = Box 51027, Eglinton Square, Scarboro, Ontario, Canada M1L 4T2 = ===="Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" Appius Claudius the Blind, 281 BC=== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 05:41:14 edt Subject: Quote From: M Toma Bob Lickacz wrote and queried 'freedom comes from the barrel of a gun', This may be a misquote of 'Politcal power grows from the barrel of a gun" Mao Mike Toma ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 98 06:06:31 edt Subject: Canadian Shooting Sports News: From: Rod Regier http://www.eagle.ca/showgun/ Sponsored by: CANADIAN SPORTING ARMS & AMMUNITION ASSOCIATION They have info on member companies, etc. Rod Regier, Software Development bus: (902)422-1973 x108 Dymaxion Research Ltd., 5515 Cogswell St., fax: (902)421-1267 Halifax, Nova Scotia, B3J 1R2 Canada email: RRegier@dymaxion.ca corporate url: http://www.dymaxion.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 21:31:41 -0400 From: rmcreat@istar.ca (BC NFA) Subject: FRAS Michelle: Often it is better to put requests in writing. Do you have the address also? Perhaps you should post it for everyone on the chat/digest if you do. Kali Very good point. It is : Attn. Firearms Registration Administration Section Royal Canadian Mounted Police Box 8885 Ottawa, Ontario K1G 3M8 Michelle Traver SSAC NFA-BC rmcreat@istar.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:50:05 -0600 From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Public interest and gun shows News item of interest--- Coquitlam Fewer people have a problem with Coquitlam renting out its facilities to organizers of a gun show than the community's acting mayor expected...[Wendy Kookier wannabe] Louella Hollington recently suggested people come forward if they think a gun show is an improper use of city-owned facilities "It didn't get a very big response at all from the community," Hollington said. The Historical Arms Collectors Society has staged the Antique Arms Fair and Gun Show at the Poirier Street Arena for the past four years. I assume that "It didn't get a very big response" is Lieberaleze for no one complained at all. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jun 98 06:19:20 edt Subject: Challenging Lyn Cockburn From: Don Clarke The following is a letter I have sent to the Calgary Sun "letter to the editor" at callet@sunpub.com I hope it gets printed! Challenging Lyn Cockburn, or, Media Myths To the Editor, Calgary Sun On May 27/98 I wrote a letter to Ms. Cockburn, one of the Calgary Sun's columnists. The letter was a challenge to Ms. Cockburn, promising her $500 if she could demonstrate easy access to a firearm. Ms. Cockburn declined to accept the challenge, stating that she doesn't care for guns "in any shape or form". Which is a pity, because I had hoped to start educating her about the tremendous differences in the way "law abiding gun owners" and "criminals" are treated here in Canada. Ms. Cockburn, if she had accepted the challenge, would have found out that under Canada's "gun control law" she would be required to take a course in firearm safety, pass an exam with a mark of at least 80%, fill out a 4 page form (answering some questions that employers are not allowed (by law) to ask), submit two pictures of herself, and then wait while the police interviewed her spouse or boy/girl friend, employer, neighbours and finally herself. If the police were satisfied that she was acceptable, and if at least 28 days had passed, then her application for a Firearms Application Certificate would have been sent to the Chief Firearms Officer for approval. And then Ms. Cockburn would have had to wait for the "credit card" type FAC (with her picture on it) to be sent to her before she could apply to the police for permission to possess a handgun. My point? I knowingly issued Ms. Cockburn a "sucker bet", one that no private citizen could win. Legally, that is. I had assumed that when Ms. Cockburn turned down the challenge, it was because she had researched the process and knew it couldn't be done. And then I read the following letter in the June 6th Calgary Sun. "RE: LYN Cockburn's June 3 column "Challenge misses mark." I can't believe Lyn Cockburn jammed out on the challenge presented by Don Clarke! What's this about not wanting to own a gun? Nonsense. Clarke's challenge doesn't state to keep the gun. I think someone's not up to the challenge. Raymond Lam (Lyn's point was many kids do have easy access to guns.) " Mr. Lam is right. Ms. Cockburn could have driven the firearm home, walked into the house and called the police asking them to pick up the firearm and dispose of it for her! I never said she had to keep it, merely take legal possession of it. Just think, if she had turned the firearm in for destruction, she could have credited herself with making the streets safer by removing one firearm from the possible reach of a child! And she would have made money while doing so! However, the "editor's comment" on Mr. Lam's letter makes me despair of ever educating a journalist. "Easy access"! If the media were really concerned about children having easy access to firearms, then the media would be printing editorials about the Federal Government and it's misplaced legislation. Legal, law abiding citizens are not the problem. Criminals are. Supposedly, anyone using a firearm in the commission of a crime is to face a mandatory minimum 4 year jail term, in addition to whatever other sentence the judge decides upon. When was the last time this was applied? Why does the media ignore the fact that it is usually "plea bargained" away? If you want "kids" to stop using firearms, then agitate for the feds to change the YOA so that there is "punishment" that fits the crime. Ms. Cockburn says she once faced a kid armed with a shotgun. Hmmm. That's a serious crime. I wonder how long the "kid" was in jail??? Or did he learn that there were no serious consequences to be faced for breaking the law? Please don't prattle about "easy access to guns". It isn't true, and it misses the point. As the RCMP have pointed out, "the RCMP investigated 88,162 actual violent crimes during 1993, where only 73 of these offenses, or 0.08%, involved the use of firearms." Spending hundreds of millions of dollars on registering all the legally owned firearms in Canada won't reduce criminal use of firearms. If we can't stop them from obtaining drugs and alcohol, how do we stop them from getting the drug dealer's tool of choice, a handgun? If Ms. Cockburn wants to stop the "Kip Kinkels" of the world, then she should be asking pertinent questions like "why was Kip released from police custody the day before he murdered 4 people?" Or, "why are known dangerous offenders released from custody before their sentence is completed?" But my favourite question is still "why don't the courts obey the law and impose "mandatory" minimum sentences when a violent crime has been committed?" In closing, my respects to Ms. Cockburn for realizing that she had been offered a bet she couldn't win. As I said in my first letter to her, I do agree with many points she made in her column. But now I hope the Sun starts focussing on the real problem, rather than just tossing off comments about "easy access to firearms". Don Clarke Marathon ONtario dclarke@cancom.net 1 807 229 1036 cc : Canadian Firearms Digest file ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #426 **********************************