From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Thu Jun 11 19:17:33 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17234; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:17:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA30924; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:07:27 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:07:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199806120107.TAA30924@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #434 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: RO X-Status: X-UID: 1330 Content-Length: 26665 Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, June 11 1998 Volume 02 : Number 434 In this issue: Fw: Firearms Officers Fw: CFD V2 #430 Why Do We Need Fw: Two Cent Report Fw: Fed Up II Fw: Can the RCMP Do This Exsisting Trap and Skeet Ranges: Fw: Infantile Beliefs Fw: Prohibited Ranges What happened to can.talk.guns FOR SALE Some quote seen... Killing Canadians in Quebec with full autos.... Re: Gun Powder CFDv2 - #430 - "Why do we need...." Begging for exposure GOVERNMENT TREATMENT Re: Firearms Officers Well Done Jim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 06:21:40 edt Subject: Fw: Firearms Officers From: "Alfred.Hovdestad@usask.ca" > From> THE FOLLOWING AD WAS IN THE SASKATOON STAR-PHOENIX ON SATURDAY JUNE 6 > 1998. > ====================================================================== > FIREARMS ADMINISTRATION, R.C.M.P. I was at the Saskatoon Police Station today to apply to register a handgun and I asked the clerks what was going to happen to their office come October 1. They replied that it looks as if the feds will take over the whole mess. What will happen to the local office is not clear. I then asked about the Firearms Officers positions. They said that the pay was too low, that the officers in Saskatoon would be expected to handle a 100 mile radius around Saskatoon, complete with travel. I suggested that the only people interested might be those taking early retirement, they nodded in agreement. I have visited the local firearms unit several times over the last five years. The people there have always been friendly and supportive of our stand against Bill C-68. - -- Alfred Hovdestad -- Member of -- Saskatchewan Responsible Firearm Owners Saskatchewan Bowhunters Association National Firearms Association Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation Reform Party of Canada CRIME CONTROL, NOT MORE GUN CONTROL! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 05:48:18 edt Subject: Fw: CFD V2 #430 Why Do We Need From: BChow2or81@aol.com The letter inquiring why we need big mags, etc, was from a U.S. citizen and resident. The reference to the Constitution was for his benefit. He happens to be my brother, so I waxed a bit over-enthusiastic and forgot the auto/semi- auto distinction, etc., (we've been having a prolonged and heated, but friendly, discussion re these and related subjects for a long time). I must digress for a minute. About 2 years ago, my brother finally took good advice and went into a local dealer, got some competent coaching and decided to purchase a pistol, and the necessary local licence. (He sent me his targets and they were awesome!) By coincidence, the media showed up at that point to do a story about gunshops, and guess who his wife saw on TV that evening? He forfeited the licence fee and still doesn't have a pistol. He can't bring himself to refute her argument that he's safer without one, although he's a natural in shooting! Back to our subject - Thanks for reminding me of the facts. Enthusiasm is no excuse for my forgetting the basics! "Wouldn't it be loverly" if our political leaders had the kind of peer review we are so fortunate to have in this Digest. (As if they would heed it !!) ... Bud. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 06:33:45 edt Subject: Fw: Two Cent Report From: "Jean-Francois Avon" On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 06:29:59 -0600, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: - -------- begin quoted text -------------- From: "H. Taylor Buckner" Subject: The Two Cent Report One of the aspects mentioned in the report was "loss of lifetime earnings" due to death by gunshot. This is a fictitious "loss" as it is the projection of the earning potential of an individual. This is like saying "if a pensioner would have lived another 50 years, s/he would have gotten 50 years more pension". This was not factored into the total medical cost presented in the report. - -------- end quoted text ------------ A comment here: the loss of income *might* be true (in some circumstances only), but only in the case that the victim survives, and *only* to the victim. "Society" will not incur any loss since any income loss by one individual is usually picked up by another individual. The law of offer and demand... So, BS for "losses to society". Ciao jf Definition: FACISM: n.: a political and economic movement, strongly nationalistic, magnifying the rights of the state as opposed to those of the individual, in which industry, though remaining largely under private ownership, and all administrative political units, are controlled by a strong central government. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "One of the ordinary modes by which tyrants accomplish their purpose, without resistance, is by disarming the people and making it an offense to keep arms". Joseph Story, U.S. Supreme Court Justice. it ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 06:36:37 edt Subject: Fw: Fed Up II From: "Pierre Leblanc" Dan MacInnis wrote: PS. Would a list of the sporting goods stores (with telephone/fax numbers) selling firearms in the Montreal area help? I can probably get it. Also, I have Winfax on this computer, I can enter data and send fax's automatically from a database. I will be happy to do that if you so advise. No charge, of course. You would advise what to fax to recipients, preferable one page, in MSWord or a coverpage. Same here in Montreal.... Pierre Leblanc DVC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 05:30:22 edt Subject: Fw: Can the RCMP Do This From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assist. 1" Can anyone who has had similar experiences advise these sport shooters how best to deal with the RCMP in this situation? > -----Original Message----- > From: > Sent: June 7, 1998 5:59 PM > To: breitkreuzc@reform.ca > Subject: RCMP > > Sir: > > My wife and I are competitive handgun shooters. We are members of > different > shooting organizations, and I had at one time been a member of United > States > Practical Shooting Association . When I lived in Calgary, I was able to > get > a permit to travel to US to shoot. The permit would cover any port at any > time of the year. > > I moved from Calgary to Carstairs and now the RCMP has say in what I do > and > how I do it. I applied for a permit to go to US to shoot, but was > informed > I had to have sent a paid registration form to the organization which was > putting on the match, bring confirmation of payment, than I would receive > a > permit, which would have to be approved in Edmonton. I would have to > return to Canada through a specific port on a specific date. I complained > to Myron Thompson's office, they checked with the RCMP and I was told > that's > the way they do things. That's not good enough. > > Does the RCMP have the authority to do this? I shoot for sport. If I > want > to go to US to play baseball, I don't have to cross a specific port, nor > do > the people living in cities. I realize guns are a political issue, but I > also thought RCMP were a police force, an investigative agency, not the > eyes > and ears of the Liberal government. > > I am starting to feel like a second class citizen and I haven done > anything > wrong. > What does it matter to RCMP what I do with my gun in US, and where I take > it? The onus is on me to obey the laws there, not the RCMP to watch over > me. > Do they have authority to place these restrictions on my movement to US, > if > US has no objections, or are they just trying to be a paramilitary arm of > the Liberal government? > > When I applied for my western Canada permit in January, I was told that > next > year I will have to supply the addresses of the shooting clubs and matches > where I will go throughout the year, if I want my western Canada permit in > 1999. Is it in the RCMP mandate to be so restrictive? Can they put these > limitations on me? > > Thank you > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 05:39:24 edt Subject: Exsisting Trap and Skeet Ranges: From: "Art Belanger" Does anyone have information on how existing ranges will be treated under Bill c68 after Oct 1/98. Art Belanger ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 06:25:11 edt Subject: Fw: Infantile Beliefs From: dhammond@cadvision.com (Dave Hammond) The following was extracted from the June 8 edition of the Alberta Report. In the Eclectia section, the writer of this news piece was taking the current politically correct attitude (prevalent in North America's large urban centres) to task. He describes the mindset that would promote the banning of anything that is potentially dangerous as "infantile". I tend to agree and will be using this great ajective in the future when replying to the caterwalling of hand wringing antis. AN AMERICAN PRAYER Visitors to the Mr. Showbiz web site were invited to comment on the death of comedian Phil Hartman. There the shock and sadness that so many felt about Hartman's murder quickly subsumed into a campaign for gun control. A posting from someone who styles herself (?) "Mizzy" illustrates the infantile tendency in America that threatens to carry all before it: "WE SHOULD BAN ANYTHING THAT CAUSES PEOPLE PAIN. WE SHOULD BAN ANYTHING THAT KILLS PEOPLE AND MAKES THEM SAD. WE SHOULD BAN ANYTHING THAT'S NOT ALWAYS NICE. WE SHOULD BAN ANYTHING THAT IS MISUSED IN SOME WAY. THEN EVERYTHING WOULD BE WONDERFUL AGAIN." (caps to emphis.) If this naive concept of the human condition wasn't so dangerous it would be hilarious. The freightening thing about people with this mindset is that they are the very people politicians love to associate with and pander to. Just mention the the idea of your willingness to render up someone else's rights or property and there will be a plethora of politicians/bureaucrats there to accomodate you. D.H. (RFOA)(NFA) "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." (Mohandas Gandhi) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 06:34:37 edt Subject: Fw: Prohibited Ranges From: Stormbringer I just recently rejoined my local gun range after a few years hiatus. The local Range officer informed me that I will not be allowed ( by LAW) to fire my semi automatic Registered FN-1A1 nor my AK-84 S1. I am a handgunner as well and will be recieving my C-301 permit to convey in a few months ( or worse ). What exactly are the rules concerning Prohibited firearms and the ranges that they may be used on? Does this mean that I will not be able to use my .32 cal "banned" VZOR-50??? as well? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!!! jevers@axiom.on.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:05:54 -0600 From: "R.J.K." Subject: What happened to can.talk.guns Does anyone know what happen to the news group can.talk.guns Can not find any post newer than 6-30-98 - - - - UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES _____________________________________ Laws that forbid the carrying of arms, disarm only those who are incline to obey the law. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:06:39 -0600 From: Bud Melless Subject: FOR SALE My apologies to everyone. Apparently the number I gave is not correct. The phone AND fax are below. >> Robert Wilson of R & M Sports has decided to close his business and has a >> number of items for sale at cost. >> I am listing it here in an effort to help Robert sell his remaining stock. >> >> Robert can be reached at: >> Tel: (519) 843-3473 >> Fax: (519) 843-3473 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:06:46 -0600 From: "Jean-Francois Avon" Subject: Some quote seen... Here is an interesting one, from one US author unknown: "The three boxes of freedom: the ballot box, the soap box and the ammo box" Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds (Montreal), Canada Unregistered Firearms in the hands of honest citizens: Liberty's Teeth Strong Cryptographic tools in the hands of honest citizens: Liberty's Voice He who beats his sword into a ploughshare will get coerced to plow for those who don't... PGP keys: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:06:49 -0600 From: Ken Pisichko Subject: Killing Canadians in Quebec with full autos.... Cpl. Lortie did not use a M16A2. This is the US designation of a US military rifle. Cpl. Lortie who was stationed at CFS Carp (just NW of Ottawa) took Canadian built 9mm SMGs (one or two, I cannot remember) and a supply of 9mm ammo and did his thing at the legislative building in Quebec City. These SMGs are full auto and are issued to units who use vehicles a lot and who are also in buildings. CFS Carp is a Communications facility and because of this the SMGs were standard issue to personnel there (along with the Browning HP (9mm pistol). The Canadian version of the M16 series was just being phased in when Cpl. Lortie did his thing. This weapon/firearm is useless in close quarter defense (as in buildings etc) Ken in Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:06:55 -0600 From: "David J. Wiebe" Subject: Re: Gun Powder "Moore Vision" >It is my understanding that gun powder is now a flammable and not an >explosive. There may be a movement about to put gun powder in the Gunpowder is an explosive. DOT informs me that you can buy and transport up to 25kg of gunpowder (up to 1000kg if it is UN Code 1.4c) from a retail outlet to wherever you need to take it for private use without placarding the vehicle. It gets uglier if you mean to sell it, or if you are picking it up for someone else. Black and smokeless powder (Class "B" explosives under the explosives act) exist in UN Class 1.1c, 1.3c and 1.4c (under the transport act). I don't know which is which, but you are safe at 25kg or less. I've been trying to get through to the explosives regulatory division, without success, to see if I can get some relevant printed material. Will advise. David J. Wiebe DJWiebe@msn.ca DavidJW@istar.ca Charter Member & Director of the Pacific Shooters Association Member of The National Firearms Association, the Reform Party of Canada, the Responsible Firearms Owners Coalition of BC and the BC Wildlife Federation. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:06:57 -0600 From: BChow2or81@aol.com Subject: CFDv2 - #430 - "Why do we need...." The letter inquiring why we need big mags, etc, was from a U.S. citizen and resident. The reference to the Constitution was for his benefit. He happens to be my brother, so I waxed a bit over-enthusiastic and forgot the auto/semi- auto distinction, etc., (we've been having a prolonged and heated, but friendly, discussion re these and related subjects for a long time). I must digress for a minute. About 2 years ago, my brother finally took good advice and went into a local dealer, got some competent coaching and decided to purchase a pistol, and the necessary local licence. (He sent me his targets and they were awesome!) By coincidence, the media showed up at that point to do a story about gunshops, and guess who his wife saw on TV that evening? He forfeited the licence fee and still doesn't have a pistol. He can't bring himself to refute her argument that he's safer without one, although he's a natural in shooting! Back to our subject - Thanks for reminding me of the facts. Enthusiasm is no excuse for my forgetting the basics! "Wouldn't it be loverly" if our political leaders had the kind of peer review we are so fortunate to have in this Digest. (As if they would heed it !!) ... Bud. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:07:00 -0600 From: Jon & Eileen Taylor Subject: Begging for exposure GOODALE FLOPS ON THE RUBBER CHICKEN CIRCUIT Ralph Goodale Lieberal MP (Saskatchewans only) failed in his bid to address his constituents in Sedley-Francis on the occasion of the school graduation ceremony. His office apparently contacted the local officials with the gracious offer to attend the event, partake of a free lunch( how fitting) and then repay the hospitality with some Lieberal doggerel. My informant tells me that the reply was: "Sure you can come but you have to buy your own ticket and no thanks we do not need the progaganda" This information was passed on to his office and the response was reportedly cool. Those of you who are not familiar with Ralph should know that his riding is almost exclusively rural. However a little adroit gerrymandering of the riding managed to include the S.W corner of Regina , where dwell all the moneyed class, the vast majority who know what is the best for the peasants and will tell us so. 11 out of the twelve polls went solidly anti Lieberal so the elite again had their say. You may also remember Ralph as the minister in charge of the Canadian Wheat Board.This is the outfit which sends farmers to jail for attempting to sell the product they produce. The memory of the farmer in Manitobs, shown on TV, arms and legs shackled , is a forcast of what the Lieberals have in store for the rest of us. Sorry Ralph, no free lunch in Sedley Jon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:46:35 -0600 From: Bob Lickacz Subject: GOVERNMENT TREATMENT John Ross said: > Write each paper you know of, make the voice heard, point out how no other > group of people anywhere in our history has ever been treated like this, > ask who will be next. This is not quite so. On February 26, 1942, the Canadian government ordered people of Japanese origin in coastal areas to be relocated to the B.C. interior or to inland farming areas. Their property was CONFISCATED, they were FORBIDDEN to OWN or USE cars, radios, cameras, or FIREARMS. Why else do you think southern Alberta cities like Lethbridge have some of Canada's best Japanese restaurants. Several thousand Ukrainians were also held in labour camps during the first world war. Many of these "undesirable aliens" were naturalized Canadians. The process of naturalizing apparently did not prevent the Canadian government from seizing their property either. There were at least two large stalags here in the west. One was at Banff, the other was at Castle Mountain. Much of the development in Banff National Park was due to what amounted to Ukrainian slave labour. These historical incidents make me feel more than a little uneasy about the Canadian Police Association and a man like Scott Newark. I think the RFC needs to be wary of Mr. Newark because he may be using the firearms issue to pressure the Justice Department to go ahead with the DNA data bank. It wouldn't surprise me to see the CPA roll over and die on this issue if Annie coughs up with the DNA data bank. Remember the CPA gave CONDITIONAL endorsement of Bill C-68. This endorsement was on the condition that the legislation did not criminalize law abiding firearms owners. I spoke to Mr. Newark a little while ago and he said that the CPA continues to endorse the Firearms Act, in the face of the Justice Department's liberal interpretation of firearms facts, the statement by the RCMP that the much vaunted registry is going to be useless to the beat cop investigating a domestic violence complaint, and the statement by the Liberal government's handpicked genuflecting User's Group that the postcard system will have a 50% error rate. When I tried to remind him of the condition specified in the CPA position paper, he brushed away my comment by saying that HE didn't need to be reminded about the CPA position because HE wrote it. It really makes me wonder why all of a sudden a lightning bolt has managed to strike Mr. Newark. Bob Lickacz NFA Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:07:17 -0600 From: "Alfred.Hovdestad@usask.ca" Subject: Re: Firearms Officers > From> THE FOLLOWING AD WAS IN THE SASKATOON STAR-PHOENIX ON SATURDAY JUNE 6 > 1998. > ====================================================================== > FIREARMS ADMINISTRATION, R.C.M.P. I was at the Saskatoon Police Station today to apply to register a handgun and I asked the clerks what was going to happen to their office come October 1. They replied that it looks as if the feds will take over the whole mess. What will happen to the local office is not clear. I then asked about the Firearms Officers positions. They said that the pay was too low, that the officers in Saskatoon would be expected to handle a 100 mile radius around Saskatoon, complete with travel. I suggested that the only people interested might be those taking early retirement, they nodded in agreement. I have visited the local firearms unit several times over the last five years. The people there have always been friendly and supportive of our stand against Bill C-68. - -- Alfred Hovdestad -- Member of -- Saskatchewan Responsible Firearm Owners Saskatchewan Bowhunters Association National Firearms Association Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation Reform Party of Canada CRIME CONTROL, NOT MORE GUN CONTROL! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:07:23 -0600 From: "Alfred.Hovdestad@usask.ca" Subject: Well Done Jim MEDIA RELEASE LAZY LIBERAL MPS CAUSE GOVERNMENT TO LOSE POWERS Ottawa, June 9, 1998... Reform MP Dr. Jim Pankiw caught the Liberals off guard yesterday when he got unanimous consent to revoke the government's power to use closure and time allocation. The Liberals use these Parliamentary powers when they want to shut down debate on bills and rush them through the House of Commons. Pankiw moved the motion because there was not a single Liberal MP in the House of Commons. Opposition MPs gave unanimous consent to Pankiw's motion to eliminate government access to closure and time allocation powers. "We are sick and tired of seeing nothing but empty chairs on the Liberal side of the House," Pankiw said. "The Liberal government must realize that their MPs can't just sleep the day away in the government lobby. Their slack attitude was bound to get them into trouble; and I was all too happy to be the one to expose their incompetence." Angered by the embarrassing turn of events, the Liberals attempted to overturn the motion this morning. When that didn't happen, the Liberals called a vote to extend sitting hours of the House to 4 am for the period June 10 - 23 expecting this would pressure the Reform Party to return the government's lost powers. To their surprise, Reformers voted in favour of the new hours. "Unlike the Liberals who prefer sleeping in the government lobby, Reformers are always happy to sit in the House and represent the views and concerns of the people who elected us," Pankiw said. For further information contact: Dr. Jim Pankiw, MP 1-613-992-8052 ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #434 **********************************