From owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Thu Jun 11 19:18:02 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17239; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:18:00 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA31113; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:08:18 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:08:18 -0600 Message-Id: <199806120108.TAA31113@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #435 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: RO X-Status: X-UID: 1331 Content-Length: 26635 Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, June 11 1998 Volume 02 : Number 435 In this issue: Metaksa Tells UN Commission On Crime To Open Closed Doors Can the RCMP do this? Response to "Gun law gets boost" - Montreal Gazette, June 10/98 Re: Deer Hunter Ontario residents Prohibited Ranges?? Re: The Two Cent Report (CFD V2 #427) infantile beliefs Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #430 FW: F.Y.I./ JP ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:09:56 +0000 From: "R.J.K." Subject: Metaksa Tells UN Commission On Crime To Open Closed Doors - -------------------------------------------------------------- Following is the text of a statement made by Tanya K. Metaksa, executive director, NRA In stitute for Legislative Action, to the United Nations Commission on Crime Prevention & Criminal Justice, Seventh Session, Vienna, Austria, April 27, 1998. The presentation was part of Agenda Item 5: Criminal Justice Reform and Strengthening of Legal Institutions Measures to Regulate Firearms. Metaksa's message follows: - SNIP - By way of introduction, let me note that the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action (NRA-ILA) is the oldest, largest, most active organization in the world concerned with shooting sports and the rights of firearms owners. The NRA has over three million members worldwide, and our organization actively lobbies in all 50 of the United States and in the US Congress. - SNIP - Today I should like to address three topics. First, the report of the Secretary General on "Measures to Regulate Firearms." Second, the resolutions regarding firearms which are being considered by this body. And finally, Madame Chairperson, perhaps the most important, the need for democratic reform of the method by which the UN conducts its business when considering issues which, by definition, constitute key elements of the domestie affairs of member states. Report of the Secretary General Having reviewed the report of the Secretary General on "Measures to Regulate Firearms" (E/ CN. 15/1998/4), we find it an incredible document. It is more aptly described as an uncredible document. I refer to the section sub-titled, "Conclusion of the Workshop." That is found in paragraphs 1 1 through 23 of the report. This is uncredible for two reasons: the substance of the conclusions and the process by which those conclusions were drawn. Let me list just a few of the so-called conclusions, more precisely, affronts to law-abiding possessors of firearms, good people not just of the United States of America but good people of nations around the world. - -- That hunters should be required to store their firearms in sporting clubs. -- That the firearms used in hunting be sharply restricted and permitted for use only to protect wildlife. -- That only smooth-bore firearms be permitted for protection of property or life. - - - That firearm owners establish a need before being allowed to possess firearms. -- That firearms collectors be allowed to possess only those firearms which are non-functional. - -- That there be an upper-age-limit on the possession offirearms. -- That firearms owners obtain insurance before being allowed to hunt. That firearms possession be discouraged and that, if they must, individuals would be permitted to own one firearm at most. Madame Chair, we have in our hands a report issued by a group of people who have bent over backwards to avoid open processes--processes designed to arrive at measured conclusions. Instead, we have witnessed closed processes which yield no measured conclusions at all, but radical proposals which strike at the core of freedoms we hold dear and a heritage which was passed on to us by our fathers and Forefathers. These radical affronts may or may not have been actually discussed at the workshop. Indeed, this is the first time we and our government have heard of many of them. - SNIP - Madame, I will return to this point later, but for the record, permit me to make this observation: the UN's tarnished reputation shall never brighten when its agencies cloak themselves in secrecy, when it insists on closing doors rather than opening doors, when it masquerades radical proposals as blithe conclusions in officially bound documents. - SNIP - Now, Madame Chairperson, you are probably asking, how does this relate to the need for democratic reform in UN procedures? When the UN was mainly concerned with fulfilling its classic diplomatic role of preventing interstate wars of aggression, there was little necessity for citizens of member countries to have a voice in your deliberation. If and when the UN chooses to involve itself in issues which are domestic by nature, and this most definitely includes the firearms issue, the UN's approach must change. Many criticize the UN for even delving into domestic issues; we will leave their valid criticisms for another time. Today, this much can and should be said: the UN cannot act in the classic diplomatic manner of governments talking to governments in a closed, restrictive process. The process must be democratic. - SNIP - Our experience to date has not been good. One Is tempted to say that, if you have found us assertive, I can assure you we have found your locked doors aggressive. Meetings have been closed when they should have been opened. Information was not furnished when it should have been furnished. Deliberations have been private when they should have been public. Madame Chairperson. let me conclude by saying that it is our intention to pursue through the appropriate channels two major reforms of UN procedures. In the USA, such approaches are often called "sunshine laws." Such laws open closed doors, so that all interested parties can observe and participate in the light of day. InUN parlance, they are known as"increased transparency." First, the NRA Institute for Legislative Action will seek an "open meeting" provision for the UN. Under such a provision, all official meetings of` the UN will, with certain limited exceptions, be open to the public. Second, the NRA Institute for Legislative Action will seek a "public records" provision for the UN. Under this provision, all documents held by the UN will, with certain limited exceptions, be open to public examination. Our extraordinary, ordinary citizens who make up the NRA might put it this way: we want open, honest debate. We want freedom of information. We like town meetings, and we love democracy. And we think, in expressing those values, we have a lot of company - SNIP - And, from one ordinary citizen who has: the honor of speaking for millions of freedom-loving citizens of the United States of Amcrica, citizens who are as average as they are extraordinary, thank you for listening. The New Gun Week June 1998 ______________________________________________________ If The U.N. chooses to proceed ahead with further efforts to tighten firearm regulation, we would request that all future meetings be open meetings. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:07:30 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assist. 1" Subject: Can the RCMP do this? Can anyone who has had similar experiences advise these sport shooters how best to deal with the RCMP in this situation? > -----Original Message----- > From: > Sent: June 7, 1998 5:59 PM > To: breitkreuzc@reform.ca > Subject: RCMP > > Sir: > > My wife and I are competitive handgun shooters. We are members of > different > shooting organizations, and I had at one time been a member of United > States > Practical Shooting Association . When I lived in Calgary, I was able to > get > a permit to travel to US to shoot. The permit would cover any port at any > time of the year. > > I moved from Calgary to Carstairs and now the RCMP has say in what I do > and > how I do it. I applied for a permit to go to US to shoot, but was > informed > I had to have sent a paid registration form to the organization which was > putting on the match, bring confirmation of payment, than I would receive > a > permit, which would have to be approved in Edmonton. I would have to > return to Canada through a specific port on a specific date. I complained > to Myron Thompson's office, they checked with the RCMP and I was told > that's > the way they do things. That's not good enough. > > Does the RCMP have the authority to do this? I shoot for sport. If I > want > to go to US to play baseball, I don't have to cross a specific port, nor > do > the people living in cities. I realize guns are a political issue, but I > also thought RCMP were a police force, an investigative agency, not the > eyes > and ears of the Liberal government. > > I am starting to feel like a second class citizen and I haven done > anything > wrong. > What does it matter to RCMP what I do with my gun in US, and where I take > it? The onus is on me to obey the laws there, not the RCMP to watch over > me. > Do they have authority to place these restrictions on my movement to US, > if > US has no objections, or are they just trying to be a paramilitary arm of > the Liberal government? > > When I applied for my western Canada permit in January, I was told that > next > year I will have to supply the addresses of the shooting clubs and matches > where I will go throughout the year, if I want my western Canada permit in > 1999. Is it in the RCMP mandate to be so restrictive? Can they put these > limitations on me? > > Thank you > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:11:23 -0400 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assist. 1" Subject: Response to "Gun law gets boost" - Montreal Gazette, June 10/98 Here's Garry's reply to the most recent Angus Reid poll. June 10, 1998 The Editor The Montreal Gazette Note: 1 page sent by fax to: (514) 987-2399 Dear Editor: Re: "Gun law gets boost" - Page A16, Montreal Gazette, June 10, 1998 I wonder why your paper always prints articles favourable to gun registration but seldom provides your readers with the facts they need to make an intelligent decision on the issue ("Gun law gets boost", Gazette, June 10, 1998). I also wonder how the people Angus Reid called would have responded to their questions if they had known that: *The costs of gun registration are already more that 2½ times the Justice Department's original estimate of $85 million and not a single firearm has been registered. *The Justice Department hid the truth from the public, Parliament and the Alberta Court of Appeal by over-stating the number of firearms involved in crime by more than 9 times the RCMP's own firearms data. *The Justice Department's own User Group on Firearms predicts the registration system will have a 50% error rate and will actually increase black-market sales of firearms. *The Canadian Police Association believes the government should place a higher priority on registering criminals in an effective DNA data bank than registering firearms. *The majority of police on the street are opposed to the measures proposed in Bill C-68 and gun registration in particular. *The Attorney's General from Ontario, Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan have challenged Bill C-68, The Firearms Act, in court and have opted out of the administration of all gun control laws in their respective provinces. *The Justice Department has provided no evidence whatsoever that gun registration will reduce the criminal use of firearms. *The Justice Department has hidden the truth from the public and Parliament about the negative impact that gun registration will have on the economy and jobs. Sincerely, Garry Breitkreuz, MP Yorkton-Melville. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:07:52 -0600 From: "H. Roy Stephens" Subject: Re: Deer Hunter For those dedicated Mac Users like myself the #1 PC Game - Deer Hunter is being ported to the Mac next month. The company is MacSoft at 800-229-2714 or www.wizworks.com/macsoft. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:07:55 -0600 From: Dan MacInnis Subject: Ontario residents Blue Alert - To all Ontario Members and others - in tonights mail I received a survey from the Ontario government, complete with a postage paid return envelope. So every Ontario household will get one. Excellent chance to put a note inside to Harris re C68, asking him not to proclaim it in Ontario, at least not fund it, or simply voicing your opinion. FREE. Please take advantage of this. Regards, Dan MacInnis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:07:56 -0600 From: Stormbringer Subject: Prohibited Ranges?? I just recently rejoined my local gun range after a few years hiatus. The local Range officer informed me that I will not be allowed ( by LAW) to fire my semi automatic Registered FN-1A1 nor my AK-84 S1. I am a handgunner as well and will be recieving my C-301 permit to convey in a few months ( or worse ). What exactly are the rules concerning Prohibited firearms and the ranges that they may be used on? Does this mean that I will not be able to use my .32 cal "banned" VZOR-50??? as well? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!!! jevers@axiom.on.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:08:00 -0600 From: "Jean-Francois Avon" Subject: Re: The Two Cent Report (CFD V2 #427) On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 06:29:59 -0600, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: - -------- begin quoted text -------------- From: "H. Taylor Buckner" Subject: The Two Cent Report One of the aspects mentioned in the report was "loss of lifetime earnings" due to death by gunshot. This is a fictitious "loss" as it is the projection of the earning potential of an individual. This is like saying "if a pensioner would have lived another 50 years, s/he would have gotten 50 years more pension". This was not factored into the total medical cost presented in the report. - -------- end quoted text ------------ A comment here: the loss of income *might* be true (in some circumstances only), but only in the case that the victim survives, and *only* to the victim. "Society" will not incur any loss since any income loss by one individual is usually picked up by another individual. The law of offer and demand... So, BS for "losses to society". Ciao jf Definition: FACISM: n.: a political and economic movement, strongly nationalistic, magnifying the rights of the state as opposed to those of the individual, in which industry, though remaining largely under private ownership, and all administrative political units, are controlled by a strong central government. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "One of the ordinary modes by which tyrants accomplish their purpose, without resistance, is by disarming the people and making it an offense to keep arms". Joseph Story, U.S. Supreme Court Justice. it ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:08:11 -0600 From: dhammond@cadvision.com (Dave Hammond) Subject: infantile beliefs The following was extracted from the June 8 edition of the Alberta Report. In the Eclectia section, the writer of this news piece was taking the current politically correct attitude (prevalent in North America's large urban centres) to task. He describes the mindset that would promote the banning of anything that is potentially dangerous as "infantile". I tend to agree and will be using this great ajective in the future when replying to the caterwalling of hand wringing antis. AN AMERICAN PRAYER Visitors to the Mr. Showbiz web site were invited to comment on the death of comedian Phil Hartman. There the shock and sadness that so many felt about Hartman's murder quickly subsumed into a campaign for gun control. A posting from someone who styles herself (?) "Mizzy" illustrates the infantile tendency in America that threatens to carry all before it: "WE SHOULD BAN ANYTHING THAT CAUSES PEOPLE PAIN. WE SHOULD BAN ANYTHING THAT KILLS PEOPLE AND MAKES THEM SAD. WE SHOULD BAN ANYTHING THAT'S NOT ALWAYS NICE. WE SHOULD BAN ANYTHING THAT IS MISUSED IN SOME WAY. THEN EVERYTHING WOULD BE WONDERFUL AGAIN." (caps to emphis.) If this naive concept of the human condition wasn't so dangerous it would be hilarious. The freightening thing about people with this mindset is that they are the very people politicians love to associate with and pander to. Just mention the the idea of your willingness to render up someone else's rights or property and there will be a plethora of politicians/bureaucrats there to accomodate you. D.H. (RFOA)(NFA) "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." (Mohandas Gandhi) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:08:13 -0600 From: Marstar Canada Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #430 Just got a letter asking why we "Need" 30 or 40 round mags. I offered the following, which I hope doesn't stray too far from the facts: Who did you get the letter from? Remember Alcohol was "Demon Rum" and its "sole purpose" was to make one drunk, disorderly, criminal, etc.? Prohibition really helped those problems. NOT. WE (Canadians) never had prohibition of alcohol. In fact, it was probably pretty good for our economy when the 'mericans tried it. Fact is, no legally-owned semi-auto with or without a hi-capacity mag has ever been involved in a crime in Canada, except for a soldier with an army rifle in the Quebec Legislature, and 2 Quebec cops who shot up a motel roomwithout even opening its door to see who the poor (innocent) beggars inside really were! And I believe it has happened only very rarely in the U.S., but the prohibitionists HATE all guns, especially the ones they think look dangerous. I think both these cases were full auto. The police with an H&K MP5 and the soldier with a M16A2. Just to clarify a point here.... the shooting in the Quebec Legislature by Denis Lortie was done with a stolen Sterling 9mm not an M-16a2. The other shooting which was a joint police operation of the Surete du Quebec and local police took place in Rock Forect (near Sherbrooke Quebec). The police shot up the motel with UZIs not Mp-5s. The officers involved received "slap on the wrist" I wonder what would happen if you or I did the same ?? Best Regards John F St Amour >David J. Wiebe DJWiebe@msn.ca DavidJW@istar.ca >Charter Member & Director of the Pacific Shooters Association >Member of The National Firearms Association, the Reform Party >of Canada, the Responsible Firearms Owners Coalition of BC >and the BC Wildlife Federation. > >------------------------------ John St. Amour Marstar Canada Fax: (613) 678-2359 marstar@hawk.igs.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assist. 1" Subject: FW: F.Y.I./ JP PUBLICATION: Montreal Gazette DATE: 98.06.10 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PAGE: A16 COLUMN: In Brief SOURCE: CP, Southam, Windsor Star DATELINE: OTTAWA Gun law gets boost More than eight out of 10 Canadians now support mandatory gun registration, including hefty majorities in Alberta, Ontario, Saskatchewan and Manitoba - four provinces that are challenging the federal law in the Alberta Court of Appeal. An Angus Reid Group poll conducted for the Canadian Firearms Centre and made public yesterday also shows opposition is weakening among the 13 per cent of Canadians who own firearms and will be directly affected by new legal requirements to license and register their guns. The telephone poll of 3,309 adults indicates 46 per cent of gun-owners surveyed endorse compulsory registration, compared with 53 per cent who disapprove. Among non-gun owners, 88 per cent of those surveyed approve of registration. Support is highest among younger women. PUBLICATION: Montreal Gazette DATE: 98.06.10 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: Editorial / Op-ed PAGE: B3 BYLINE: E.J. MONTINI SOURCE: Arizona Republic Heston and NRA can't ignore dead children In the same booming voice he used when playing Moses, Charlton Heston, new president of the National Rifle Association, has told the American people, ``Fellow citizens, ignore the dead children in the schoolyard. Pay no attention to the blood, the gore and, most especially, the guns!!'' Of course, those weren't his exact words. What Heston actually said last week was, ``Mr. Clinton, sir, America didn't trust you with our health-care system. America didn't trust you with gays in the military. We did not trust you with our 21-year-old daughters, and we sure, Lord, don't trust you with our guns.'' Among those who study the art of war, this was a classic diversionary tactic. At least it would have been a classic if it had worked. It didn't. Dead children can't be ignored. The very first thing a newly elected president of the NRA should talk about is the problem of guns and kids. Instead, Heston tried to get you to take your eye off the ball. For someone who speaks unbearably about the right to bear arms, he can't bear to bring up the carnage in Springfield, Jonesboro, Edinboro, Fayetteville, Pomona, Paducah, Pearl and Bethel. And I don't blame him. He claims to care about middle America, about small towns, about a world last seen on the old Andy Griffith Show, which in 1998 would have to be renamed Massacre in Mayberry. So, rather than face the grim truth, he tries to change the subject, to ridicule homosexuals and the president. Anything to keep you from the fact that the firearm death rate for kids younger than 15 is 12 times higher in the United States than the rest of the industrialized world. The guns are out there. The children are out there. And the NRA is way, WAY out there. Listen to what Heston said about the Second Amendment: ``Among freedom of speech, of the press, of religion, of assembly, of redress of grievances, it (the Second Amendment) is the first among equals. It alone offers the absolute capacity to live without fear. The right to keep and bear arms is the one right that allows rights to exist at all.'' Guns above free speech? Above assembly? Above the justice system? Above religion? Above God? It's like, in this version of the movie, Moses comes down from Mount Sinai to find his followers worshiping a golden assault rifle. The sad fact is, the U.S. Department of Education reported that 6,000 students were expelled nationwide for bringing firearms to school during the 1996-97 school year. Most weapons used in school murders come from home. Adults aren't much different. A survey by the Criminal Justice Research Centre found that only 27 per cent of adult inmates said they'd bought a gun on the ``black market.'' The easy availability of weapons is a problem. Heston could have attacked that problem. He could have tried to find the middle ground Middle America is looking for. Instead, he chose to attack Bill Clinton and gays, scattering his shot wildly rather than taking careful aim at a deadly dilemma. Maybe the problem is too abstract for the actor. Maybe Ben Hur needs a dose of reality. Maybe he needs to visit 41st and Ruth Aves. in Phoenix. On Saturday at about 11 p.m., a car passed a group of teenagers from that neighbourhood. Gang signs were flashed from inside the car but went unrecognized. A young man got out with a shotgun and fired into the crowd, killing honour students Renelyn Simmons and Andre Bradley. It made no sense. The shotgun approach never does. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #435 **********************************