From - Mon Jun 15 15:37:58 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA03595; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:40:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18232; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:21:51 -0600 Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:21:51 -0600 Message-Id: <199806132221.QAA18232@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #438 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: RO X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, June 13 1998 Volume 02 : Number 438 In this issue: Re: Prohibited Ranges Allies Government with guns. Re: Prohibited Ranges Close Quarters Gun Culture Re: Prohibited Ranges Poll On Gun Control Toronto Sun Article Re: Gun Culture Most Urgent Rumour Temporary move to US -- retain "grandfathered" status New meaning for the word "mouthpiece" Re: Temporary move to US -- retain "grandfathered" status Re: New meaning for the word "mouthpiece" HUGE ARSENAL SEIZED Food for thought. Re: Most Urgent Rumour ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Jun 98 19:45:42 edt From: "david parry" Subject: Re: Prohibited Ranges From: rmcreat@istar.ca (BC NFA) Subject: Re: Prohibited Ranges?? >I just recently rejoined my local gun range after a few years hiatus. The >local Range officer informed me that I will not be allowed ( by LAW) to >fire my semi automatic Registered FN-1A1 nor my AK-84 S1. I am a >handgunner as well and will be recieving my C-301 permit to convey in a few >months ( or worse ). What exactly are the rules concerning Prohibited >firearms and the ranges that they may be used on? Does this mean that I >will not be able to use my .32 cal "banned" VZOR-50??? as well? > Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!!! > >jevers@axiom.on.ca I am taking an educated guess here. I, as a dealer, will not be able to sell grandfathered firearms for a grandfathered consignor because I don't have the designation of prohibited status on my Firearms Business Permit. By that same token, that won't be in effect until Oct. 1 of this year. I would guess that the range is assuming or has been told this designation will be required to allow anyone in to shoot a prohibite/grandfathered firearm. As Dave has said many times "It doen't have to make sense, it's government!" Michelle Traver SSAC NFA-BC rmcreat@istar.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 98 19:47:26 edt From: "david parry" Subject: Allies From: Alan Harper Subject: Allies I need help. I'm going to approach associates in my union with the message that C-68 is harmful to our country. I will make a motion to support the protesters at FED_UP II, on Parliament Hill, Sept 22. For the motion to be successful, I need to convince a variety of people that C-68 sets dangerous precedents in Canada, as well as being harmful for various other reasons. Some of these people own guns, a lot don't. Some are already sympathetic, some don't like guns at all. I need to present an argument that is addressed to regular working people who don't own guns. I will be focusing on the financial costs at the federal level, already at $135M (or more), the provincial level, because the provinces will be administering the laws, and the municipal level. I will mention the powers of search and seizure without warrant. I will mention confiscation, without compensation, of legally owned private property. I will mention the inconvenience and intrusion of these laws into private citizens lives. I need more arguments, aimed at people who don't own guns. Help me here. Give me the ammo for the presentation. Tell me how C-68 will interfere with our lives. Quote the relevant sections of C-68. If I am successful at the local level, I will proceed to the national level of our union. Our national office is in Ottawa, not far from Parliament Hill. If I can get them onside, we will have a strong ally. Let's put together a massive rally and get these lying bums out of office. Send me reasons and I'll compile them. I'll keep the CFD updated about the list. Use this list in your locality to make our case. Bye. Al. ==============Colt - the Ultimate in point & click hardware========= = Al Harper, email - ce331@freenet.toronto.on.ca = = Box 51027, Eglinton Square, Scarboro, Ontario, Canada M1L 4T2 = ===="Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" Appius Claudius the Blind, 281 BC=== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 05:06:44 -0600 From: Peter Cronhelm Subject: Government with guns. A small article in the Calgary sun about the new military leader of Nigeria. The article went on to tell how the previous dictator had led a brutal regime and how all the people were afraid of the secret police. The quote that made me smile was: "The people are afraid because the government has all the guns." Isn't this exactly what Jean, Al and Anne have in mind for Canada? Of course this is only for OUR own good right? Peter Cronhelm ZX-7 Carbon Fibre Racing Machine SBKracer YSR/YZ80 The Little Beast in the closet VHA #43064 "I'm not the man you say I am, not radical nor mentally deranged." - -Sons of Freedom- "...most types of gun control have no measurable net effect, for good or ill, on rates of most types of crime and violence." - -Gary Kleck "Targeting Guns"- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 05:06:41 -0600 From: Alan Harper Subject: Re: Prohibited Ranges > >I just recently rejoined my local gun range after a few years hiatus. The > >local Range officer informed me that I will not be allowed ( by LAW) to > >fire my semi automatic Registered FN-1A1 nor my AK-84 S1. I am a > >handgunner as well and will be recieving my C-301 permit to convey in a few > >months ( or worse ). What exactly are the rules concerning Prohibited > >firearms and the ranges that they may be used on? Does this mean that I > >will not be able to use my .32 cal "banned" VZOR-50??? as well? > > Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!!! > > > >jevers@axiom.on.ca > > I am taking an educated guess here. I, as a dealer, will not be able to > sell > grandfathered firearms for a grandfathered consignor because I don't have > the designation of prohibited status on my Firearms Business Permit. By > that same token, that won't be in effect until Oct. 1 of this year. I > would guess that the range is assuming or has been told this designation > will be required to allow anyone in to shoot a prohibite/grandfathered > firearm. > > As Dave has said many times "It doen't have to make sense, it's government!" > > Michelle Traver > SSAC > NFA-BC > rmcreat@istar.ca If you own registered guns, they are all restricted. Registered full autos, converted autos and short barreled/.25/.32 pistols are all restricted firearms, by virtue of the fact that they are registered. They are considered prohibited if they are NOT registered. If you can shoot a restricted rifle, like an AR-15, you can shoot any registered rifle. Bye. Al. ==============Colt - the Ultimate in point & click hardware========= = Al Harper, email - ce331@freenet.toronto.on.ca = = Box 51027, Eglinton Square, Scarboro, Ontario, Canada M1L 4T2 = ===="Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" Appius Claudius the Blind, 281 BC=== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 05:09:11 -0600 From: Ron McCutcheon Subject: Close Quarters >The Canadian version of the M16 series was just being phased in when Cpl. >Lortie did his thing. This weapon/firearm is useless in close quarter >defense (as in buildings etc)\ No firearm is useless in any situation - compared to not having one at all. OTOH, in given situations, some firearms are more useful than others. My personal choice for close quarters defense would be a 12 gauge autoloader. Others might select differently. Ron McCutcheon P. Eng mccutcrg@mail.rose.com Good gun control is a keen eye and a steady hand. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 05:09:14 -0600 From: Ron McCutcheon Subject: Gun Culture >As members of the dreaded firearms community. Please "The Gun Culture". Even our opponents are using this term. Let's embrace it. After all, isn't culture a good thing?? Ron McCutcheon P. Eng mccutcrg@mail.rose.com Good gun control is a keen eye and a steady hand. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 08:03:44 -0600 From: lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Subject: Re: Prohibited Ranges At 07:45 PM 6/12/98 edt, you wrote: >From: rmcreat@istar.ca (BC NFA) >Subject: Re: Prohibited Ranges?? > > >>I just recently rejoined my local gun range after a few years hiatus. The >>local Range officer informed me that I will not be allowed ( by LAW) to >>fire my semi automatic Registered FN-1A1 nor my AK-84 S1. snip >>jevers@axiom.on.ca > >I am taking an educated guess here. I, as a dealer, will not be able to >sell grandfathered firearms for a grandfathered consignor because I don't have >the designation of prohibited status on my Firearms Business Permit. By >that same token, that won't be in effect until Oct. 1 of this year. I >would guess that the range is assuming or has been told this designation >will be required to allow anyone in to shoot a prohibite/grandfathered >firearm. I would suspect as long as one individual who has grand fathered firearms keeps his/her range membership valid, then the range would be grand fathered. If you have a privilege you lawfully engage in, you should be able to keep that privilege... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 08:03:35 -0600 From: "The Gayders" Subject: Poll On Gun Control >We have learned that the Weekly CGI Web Poll concerns opinions about >firearms and firearms laws (gun control). If possible, please visit >this site before 6/15 so that our side can be heard in proper >proportion. The poll is at: > >http://www.dreamscape.com/throb/index.html As of Sat a.m. , it looks like our side is winning... lets help our American friends finish the job! John A. Gayder, president The Sporting Clubs Of Niagara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 08:03:41 -0600 From: loachman@netcom.ca Subject: Toronto Sun Article June 13, 1998 HUGE ARSENAL SEIZED FORMER DEPUTY MINISTER'S HOMES RAIDED By JONATHAN KINGSTONE -- Toronto Sun An Uzi submachine-gun, handguns and brass knuckles are among dozens of prohibited and unregistered weapons seized from the homes of a former top Ontario government official. Sources said the OPP's firearms unit carried out back-to-back search warrants this week at a Mississauga condominium and a Bracebridge-area cottage belonging to Dr. Allen Dyer. Dyer, 75, served as the associate deputy health minister and later as deputy minister of the environment under Bill Davis and Frank Miller's Progressive Conservative governments of the 1980s. The noted pharmacologist assured police from his winter home in Florida that he will return to Canada Monday to meet with investigators. "He just wanted to know why we had been in his cottage," said a police source who spoke with Dyer. Among the cache of weapons found in vaults and closets were an Uzi, three shotguns and close to 30 powerful handguns, including Sig Sauer and Glock .45-calibre semi-automatic pistols, the source said. Many of the weapons had not been registered with authorities, the source said, while others had been moved to a location without approval. Officers also uncovered an assortment of weapons not allowed in Canada, such as an MP 40 machine- gun, brass knuckles, stun guns, switch blades and mace. As well, they found a blow gun, used to launch darts, 2,000 rounds of ammunition and a "Hell Fire" trigger, which "turns your semi-automatic rifle into a machine-gun," the source said. "We have no information (that anyone) was profiting from this, nor do we have any information (anyone) intended to use them on anybody," the source said. "It's not like I have a gun dealer here or somebody who will go out and commit any heinous crimes. It's simply illegal to possess them." June 13, 1998 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 08:05:12 -0600 From: lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Subject: Re: Gun Culture At 05:09 AM 6/13/98 -0600, you wrote: >>As members of the dreaded firearms community. > >Please "The Gun Culture". Even our opponents are using this term. Let's >embrace it. After all, isn't culture a good thing?? >Ron McCutcheon P. Eng >mccutcrg@mail.rose.com Maybe we are eligible for "cultural grants". After all, Canada is "multi cultural". lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Peace River, Alberta, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 09:25:19 -0600 From: "ross" Subject: Most Urgent Rumour I have heard from a colleague that the government is bringing in ammo restrictions this OCT. You will only be allowed to, possess 25 rds for each type of firearm. Can anyone confirm this. One does not need to be a rocket scientist to see where this is going. Also a special ammo card will have to be had in order to get ammo. j.ross ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 09:25:23 -0600 From: Trevor Nysetvold Subject: Temporary move to US -- retain "grandfathered" status I am being transferred to the US for about 3 years. I currently own a short-barrel handgun, and I'm wondering how to handle this to ensure that I retain my grandfathered status. I'm willing to leave the gun in Canada (and in fact, I'll probably have to since the US is sticky about import--but not sale--of snubbies). Does anyone know to handle this? - -- Trevor Nysetvold Trevor.Nysetvold@aya.yale.edu http://www.cadvision.com/nysetvot ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 09:59:21 -0600 From: Norm Frei Subject: New meaning for the word "mouthpiece" A friend related this story to me yesterday, seems the hunting regulations in BC changed for blackpowder users and where before they could leave the charge and ball in the barrel while transporting it from one hunting area to another, the regs this year say the gun must be empty. He was talking this over with an RCMP member, since it would be a criminal offence, and asked the cop how he would tell if there was a charge in the firearm or not. The cops answer? Easy, I would just put my mouth over the muzzle and blow. If it didn't have a charge the air would go right through, if it did have a charge my cheeks would puff up. OK :)))))) Any other RCMP types that smart that they'll put their mouths over the muzzle of a loaded gun? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:58:29 -0600 From: Alan Harper Subject: Re: Temporary move to US -- retain "grandfathered" status > I am being transferred to the US for about 3 years. I currently own a > short-barrel handgun, and I'm wondering how to handle this to ensure that I > retain my grandfathered status. I'm willing to leave the gun in Canada > (and in > fact, I'll probably have to since the US is sticky about import--but not > sale--of snubbies). Does anyone know to handle this? I'd say you should establish your Canadian address with a family member or friend. Store your registered guns there. Accept mail there. It's your home. After you return from your temporary, out-of-country assignment, you return to your Canadian address, then decide where to go from there. Talk to a lawyer about it, one who's familiar with firearms law. Buy a new FAC before you go. Bye. Al. ==============Colt - the Ultimate in point & click hardware========= = Al Harper, email - ce331@freenet.toronto.on.ca = = Box 51027, Eglinton Square, Scarboro, Ontario, Canada M1L 4T2 = ===="Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" Appius Claudius the Blind, 281 BC=== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:58:34 -0600 From: Alan Harper Subject: Re: New meaning for the word "mouthpiece" > A friend related this story to me yesterday, seems the hunting > regulations in BC changed for blackpowder users and where > before they could leave the charge and ball in the barrel while > transporting it from one hunting area to another, the regs this > year say the gun must be empty. > > He was talking this over with an RCMP member, since it would > be a criminal offence, and asked the cop how he would tell if > there was a charge in the firearm or not. The cops answer? > > Easy, I would just put my mouth over the muzzle and blow. If it > didn't have a charge the air would go right through, if it did have > a charge my cheeks would puff up. > > OK :)))))) Any other RCMP types that smart that they'll put > their mouths over the muzzle of a loaded gun? Did he have to blow to get his job? Bye. Al. ==============Colt - the Ultimate in point & click hardware========= = Al Harper, email - ce331@freenet.toronto.on.ca = = Box 51027, Eglinton Square, Scarboro, Ontario, Canada M1L 4T2 = ===="Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" Appius Claudius the Blind, 281 BC=== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:58:37 -0600 From: Greg Subject: HUGE ARSENAL SEIZED http://www.canoe.com/TorontoNews/22_n1.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:58:42 -0600 From: "Kali J." Subject: Food for thought. Check out the Justice Canada web site - reports and/or publications area. http://canada.justice.gc.ca Maybe some of you know ways to use some of the info??? Report titled "Departmental Performance Report" (1997 I think it was.) Ann McLellan's report states in section titled "Key Reviews - Results of Program Evaluation Studies" Page 26: "Firearms: A statistical analysis of the impact of the 1977 Firearms Control Legislation was completed during 1996-97 and concluded that while there were weaknesses in the currently available data, the 1977 Firearms Legislation appears to have contributed to the reduction of homicides and accidental deaths." Hey folks, Ann - this says that the CURRENT Legislation from over twenty years ago REDUCED HOMICIDES! Did the public miss something? How true did you say your recent statistics were in argument for C68? Other info: Firearms legislation has been drafted and enacted..... Firearms act was proclaimed into law in various stages: Jan. 1/96 mandatory minimum sentencing came into effect, Aug. 9/96 fees for licensing and registration were announced, Nov. 27/96 regulations to support the Firearms Act were tabled. ..... Core group established Apr/97..... Check out Bill C-110..... no constitutional amendment affecting any region of the country shall be introduced by the government without the consent of that region...... (THOSE WHO UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS - CAN THIS BE USED IN ANY WAY RE C68?) Section IV: Supplementary Information (Page 28) This lists several brochures regarding the firearms act - what was the cost of these already and what is the expected continuing cost - has Annie included it in her? Revenues/Expenses: Show 2 million shy of what they planned for revenue, and includes "services and fees for the firearms act." Here's a few names to throw questions and info to: Policy Sector: Richard Mosley, Q.C. Assistant Deputy Minister Criminal Policy & Project Director, Firearms Room 750, Justice Building 239 Wellington Street Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0H8 Ph: (613) 957-4725 Fax: (613) 941-4122 Michel Plouffe Senior Project Manager Canadian Firearms Centre 360 Albert Street Constitutional Square, 9th Floor Ottawa, Ontario K1R 7X7 Ph: (613) 952-3800 Fax: (613) 941-1991 Another report titled "Report on Plans & Priorities" worth a look too. In "Key Plans & Strategies" Annie states "The overriding objective..... ensuring that Canadians have a fair, effective, affordable and well functioning justice system...... ... respond to the issues of greatest concern to Canadians....," and in section 'Expected Results': "... reduction of the incidence of violent crime through the implementation of Firearms control measures." Now Annie.... with the millions of firearms owners in Canada, are you REALLY responding to the issues of greatest concern to Canadians (did I miss something - are we Canadians or not?) And Annie.... can't even get your own reports straight, or left hand doesn't know what right is doing - one report says homicide and accidental death down in last 20+ years, but other report says reduce violent crime? What am I missing in this picture? This report also includes some interesting figures on costs. One area I found of interest is titled "Table 5 - Transfer Payments". In this table is included a line for "Contributions to the provinces and territories for the Firearms Program" with the following amounts: Forecast 97/98 $ 7,433,593 Planned 98/99 $20,390,330 Planned 99/00 $10,390,330 Planned 00/01 $10,390.330 I could be wrong, but I'm assuming this is the 'bribe' to the provinces to carry out this act (another area says negotiations are underway between provinces). Now, question - are these figures being disclosed by Annie? Also - are the provinces aware of these? It's interesting that 98/99 is over double 97/98, and yet 1999-2000 and 2000-2001 are only half of the 98/99 amounts (approx. only but how much will these be reduced in a future year). Provinces need to wake up. All in all - some interesting "food for thought". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:55:59 -0400 From: rmcreat@istar.ca (BC NFA) Subject: Re: Most Urgent Rumour >I have heard from a colleague that the government is bringing in ammo >restrictions this OCT. You will only be allowed to, possess 25 rds for >each type of firearm. Can anyone confirm this. It states in the Firearms Act Regulations: (page 19) NON-PROHIBITED AMMUNITION TRANSFER DOCUMENT REGULATIONS 1. For the purpose of paragraph 25(a) of the Firearms Act, a prescribed document is (a) in the case of an individual who is 18 years old or older, a document tha (i) is valid, (ii) has on it the date of birth or the age of the holder, and (iii) is issued by (A) the government of Canada, the government of a province or territory, or a municipality, (B) an agency, board or commission of any such government or municipality, (C) a foreign government, or (D) a post-secondary educational institution that is accredited by a province; and (b) in the case of an individual who is less than 18 years old, a permit issued under subsection 110(6) or (7) of the former Act. 2. These regulations come into force on October 1, 1998 ***************************************** Anything more would be an OIC, of which I have no info yet. > >One does not need to be a rocket scientist to see where this is going. Also >a special ammo card will have to be had in order to get ammo. > >j.ross Isn't that the truth. Michelle Traver SSAC NFA-BC rmcreat@istar.ca ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #438 **********************************