From - Wed Jun 17 16:34:00 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13882; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:52:03 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22941; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:40:50 -0600 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:40:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199806172140.PAA22941@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #441 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: O X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, June 17 1998 Volume 02 : Number 441 In this issue: Manufacturing of firearms Re: Shoot While at Fed Up II Rally Faxes to Justice Minister NO, WE DON'T HAVE A CRIME PROBLEM IN CANADA columnist George Jonas Re: Another case Re: A question concerning ammunition ammunition limits Important article in Ottawa Citizen NO NO NO-Re: [Fwd: A question about your policy...] Reloading supplies "Handgun group rips government for gun-crime 'lies'" - Ottawa Cit Virus alert ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:11:00 -0600 From: Kevin & Linda Subject: Manufacturing of firearms I need some clarification of our laws on manufacturing guns. I have been told that you can make your own actions and compensators, but not barrels. True? If so, how in the hell are the xxxxxxxx running our country planning on keeping track of manufactured actions? Maybe we should start registerring blocks of steel that we "plan" to turn into a firearm. Thanx Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:14:18 -0600 From: Gerald Griffith Subject: Re: Shoot While at Fed Up II Rally ** Reply to note from David.Parry@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:59:12 -0600 > We should have a shoot while we are at the Rally in Ottawa, charging > each shooter a fee. We should then donate this money to some worthwhile > charity, such as the Sally-Ann. We could then present the cheque during > the Rally. This would accomplish two things, some money to charity and > perhaps some extra coverage by the media. I believe that this would also > help boost our image with the general public. Any ideas on this one. Not that the Salvation Army isn't a worthy cause, but in this case we might win more friends in the Liberal party if we directed the donation to Jean Chretien's favourite charity; Hepatitis C victims. Gerald Griffith ******************************************************************* Do not do unto others as you would they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same. <>George Bernard Shaw<> ******************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:14:10 -0600 From: Karl Schrader Subject: Faxes to Justice Minister Dear Readers: Everybody so inclined should send a fax to the Justice Minister re. the article "Nanny state declares war on its citizens" by George Jonas, Ottawa Citizen, June 14/98 Copying the article from the digest # 439 and pasting it into the fax, requesting her comments and/or reply on the issues raised in the article. You can fax the feds by using : http://www.net-efx.com/faxfeds using your e-mail set-up. Cheers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:10:55 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: NO, WE DON'T HAVE A CRIME PROBLEM IN CANADA >We had shootings on successive nights involving >some of our most upstanding island immigrants. In the first one occurred on >the street. The suspect whom the victim refuses to identify took 6, yes 6, >.45 slugs and lived. >I was able to find 4 casings and 3 slugs on the street. The following night >a Jamaican BBQ was interupted by 2 more who wanted to settle a dispute >(drugs, naw). They turned an alley into the shooting gallery. A .32 against >a .380. >One of them took 2 .32 slugs and went into surgery. It was neat to watch. >Apparently he already had a slug in him from a shooting this past Xmas. >Of course NOOOOOOObody stayed around to volunteer information. >I am reminded of Newton's first law of motion. An object will remain >motionless unless acted upon by an external force.(or something to that effect) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:11:04 -0600 From: Larry James Fillo Subject: columnist George Jonas Southam columnist George Jonas, who has long written about civil liberties, issues wrote about the C-68 on June 11th. His penetrating and critical comments deserve reflection. It ran under the heading: 'Gun law confiscation rules legalize theft'-exceprts as follows' "About three years ago, I wrote in the Toronto Sun about a New Brunswick gun collector whose Franchi SPAS-15 shotgun, worth about $1,000, was confiscated, apparently without compensation, under the first phase of then justice minister Alan Rock's gun laws. The weapon was one of perhaps eight such firearms in Canada. None had evr been used in any crime. None had ever been involved in any careless or accidental shooting. I wrote that I didn't feel safer by the confiscation of a rare and valuable weapon from a law-abiding, careful, expert collector. On the contrary, the knowledge that our Minister of Justice could rob a fellow citizen of $1,000 made me feel about as threatened as I'd ever felt in canada." Later referring to the letter from the Cdn Police Association to Federal Minister of Justice Anne McLellan, raising constitutional questions about the impending confiscation without compensation Jonas comments "Maybe it's encouraging that in our country we have the police to remind ministers of justice that robbing people of their property is wrong, even in causes the police otherwise support. What is discouraging is that our ministers of justice need to be reminded of such matters." "...Rock has skirted the truth about compensation in 1995. But, on the issue of gun control, skirting the truth has been routine. " "On one level, Bill C-68 is just a cynical attempt to exploit unhappiness with crime. What people want is crime control but, since that is a daunting task, with no easy solutions, the Liberal government has substituted gun control, hoping that no one will notice the difference. But ther's something more insidious about Bill C-68. The best place to look for the spirit of any legislation is in its enforcement provisions. The search and seizure provisions of this law cancel the civil liberties of an entire class of people, namely gun owners. They reveal the act for what it is: a declaration of war by the Big Nanny state on its citzens. It's also a declaration of war by Ottawa's "progressive" mandarinate on those rural or western Canadians who don't share our left-lib urban ellite's ideals, phobias or culture. By now the issues go well beyond gun control. They've entered the realm of the 10 Commandments. Stealing people's property is one of the basic thou shalt-not's of the Bible. It's a transgression, regardless of what we think of guns or the people who won them. If we enable the government to steal our guns today, we enable it to steal our houses, cars or shirts tomorrow. ....it(the law) will be a costly mistake. Either I hope, for the politicans who pushed it through or for the country as a whole." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:10:56 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Another case >Dave... Gone 29 May to 14 Jun on holiday. I NEED a break... I'm back, browned by the sun of Spain and Morocco, dampened by the rain in Portugal. Funny -- I thought the rain would be in Spain. Now to start winnowing through the 587 email mesages that await my attention. HELP.... Dave Tomlinson, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:30:48 -0600 From: "Carlo Robazza" Subject: Re: A question concerning ammunition Dear Ms. Roussel, The firearm in question shoots 9mm Steyr ammunition. I am not sure of the make or model but I believe it was made in 1911 or 1912. I look forward to your reply. Do you have a time frame for your answer? Also, how is the definition of antique firearm changing? Thank you , Carlo Robazza Centre Firearms, Canadian wrote: > »Dear Sir: > » > »Thank you for your question with respect to ammunition and antique firearms. > » > »Generally speaking, the ammunition must not be available in > »stores or easily available at events like gun shows in order > »for the firearm to be considered an antique. > » > »I would caution that the definition of "antique firearm" and > »regulations are changing with the coming into force of the > »Firearms Act. This may in fact change the classification of > »some firearms. Regulations with respect to antiques are > »expected in the near future. > » > »If you would like to provide to us the make, model, approximate > »year of manufacture and calibre of the firearm you mention in > »your message, we will be happy to give you further information > »with respect to whether or not it is presently considered an > »antique based on section 84 of the Criminal Code. > » > »I hope this is of assistance to you. We apologize for the delay in replying > . > » > »Yours truly, > » > »Kathleen Roussel > »Communications Group > »Canadian Firearms Centre > » ---------- > »»From: Carlo Robazza > »»To: Centre Firearms, Canadian > »»Cc: digest > »»Subject: A question concerning ammunition > »»Date: March 24, 1998 04:21PM > »» > »»To anyone at the CFC that can answer my question, > »» > »» > »»A firearm that "is capable only of using rim-fire or centre-fire > »»ammunition that is not commonly available in Canada," is an "antique > »»firearm" [CC s. 84(1) "antique firearm"]. > »» > »»In the above quote, can you please tell me what "not commonly available > »»in Canada" means? This is very important to me as I believe one of my > »»firearms falls into that category. > »» > »» > »»Thank you, > »» > »»Carlo Robazza. > »» > »»P.S. Who is Carlo Friesen and why do I keep getting his copies of the > »»CFC Bulletins sent to my home address? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:30:49 -0600 From: "John E. Stevens" Subject: ammunition limits Recently there was a message on the digest suggesting that there may be limits placed on ammunition possession. I questioned this with my MP (John Richardson, Lib) and received the following reply from his legislative assistant. ..... Dear Mr. Stevens; Thank you for your e-mail of 13 June 1998 regarding firearms regulations. The Canadian Firearms Centre informs me that no regulation is planned for October 1998 or any time in the future that would limit ammunition possession to 25 rounds per type of firearm. I hope this information is useful. Martin Champoux Legislative Assistant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:30:55 -0600 From: Karl Schrader Subject: Important article in Ottawa Citizen PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 98.06.14 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PNAME : The Editorial Page PAGE: A18 COLUMN: George Jonas BYLINE: George Jonas SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen The nanny state declares war on its citizens About three years ago, I wrote in the Toronto Sun about a New Brunswick gun collector whose Franchi SPAS-15 shotgun, worth about $1,000, was confiscated, apparently without compensation, under the first phase of then-justice minister Allan Rock's gun laws. The weapon was one of perhaps eight such firearms in Canada. None had ever been used in any crime. None had ever been involved in any careless or accidental shooting. I wrote that I didn't feel safer by the confiscation of a rare and valuable weapon from a law-abiding, careful, expert collector. On the contrary, the knowledge that our minister of justice could rob a fellow citizen of $1,000 made me feel about as threatened as I'd ever felt in Canada. Rock penned a spirited reply, accusing me of inaccuracy. Wrote our former justice minister: ``I reject Jonas' claim that the federal government is confiscating 17 types of registered weapons and not providing compensation to any of the owners of these firearms ... ``Contrary to what Jonas claims, owners of these firearms like the one from New Brunswick will be compensated.'' Though the New Brunswick collector's gun was taken without an IOU, and the order-in-council enacted on Nov. 29, 1994, said nothing about compensation - - -- if this was Rock's position, it was fine by me. I was thrilled if our government concluded, however belatedly, that crime didn't pay. I wrote that I was proud of our justice minister for realizing that robbery is robbery, whether committed by masked bandits or uniformed servants of the state. Apparently I spoke too soon. This month the Ottawa Citizen reports that Scott Newark, executive officer of the Canadian Police Association, in a letter dated June 3 to Rock's successor, Justice Minister Anne McLellan, expresses amazement ``to hear questions of constitutionality concerning confiscation without compensation of property previously lawfully acquired swept aside as non-existent.'' Maybe it's encouraging that in our country we have the police to remind ministers of justice that robbing people of their property is wrong, even in causes the police otherwise support. What is discouraging is that our ministers of justice needed to be reminded of such matters. It seems that our government is set to confiscate some 20,000 to 30,000 guns from their legitimate owners after all, presumably some time after the new gun registry comes into effect on Oct. 1. Without compensation, and in spite of Rock's public assurances to the contrary. Rock skirted the truth about compensation in 1995, but on the issue of gun control, skirting the truth has been routine. For instance, in July 1997, RCMP Commissioner J.P.R. Murray felt obliged to point out to the deputy minister of justice that RCMP statistics showed 73 violent offences involving the use of firearms in 1993, as opposed to 623, the number used by the Department of Justice during the Bill C-68 debate. On one level Bill C-68 is just a cynical attempt to exploit the public's unhappiness with crime. What people want is crime control, but since that is a daunting task, with no easy solutions, the Liberal government has substituted gun control, hoping that no one will notice the difference. But there's something more insidious about Bill C-68. The best place to look for the spirit of any legislation is in its enforcement provisions. The search and seizure provisions of this law cancel the civil liberties of an entire class of people, namely gun owners. They reveal the act for what it is: A declaration of war by the Big Nanny state on its citizens. It's also a declaration of war by Ottawa's ``progressive'' mandarinate on those rural or western Canadians who don't share our left-lib urban elite's ideals, phobias or culture. By now the issues go well beyond gun control. They've entered the realm of the Ten Commandments. Stealing people's property is one of the basic thou-shalt-nots of the Bible. It's a transgression, regardless of what we think of guns or the people who own them. If we enable the government to steal our guns today, we enable it to steal our houses, cars or shirts tomorrow. The law comes into force on Oct. 1. I predict it will turn out to be a costly mistake. Either -- hopefully -- for the politicians who pushed it through, or for the country as a whole. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:31:02 -0600 From: MUDPUP Subject: NO NO NO-Re: [Fwd: A question about your policy...] Forget it Carlo it is a waste of time. BCNFA along with hundreds of others have already tried. Don't waste valuable time on a dead issue. Check the RED ALERT, that and the alerting of all our allies is what is most important now. Folks ! do not get side tracked, that is what the yum yums in Ottawa want. MUDPUP {veteran GUN LAW FRAUD fighter} >>>>>> Carlo: E-mail them back and "inform" them that handguns are NOT weapons, "millions" of Canadians own and buy/sell handguns, and "millions" of Canadians choose these for competition and sport shooting - including this category in the Olympics. Ask that they reconsider their decision, and request contact names and addresses for the "upper" staff of the Buy & Sell so that you may contact them regarding same. Kali ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:31:07 -0600 From: Howard & Sharon Sims Subject: Reloading supplies Adding to the posting previous regarding reloading supplies. Contact: Bob Wilson 519-843-3473 He is located in Fergus Ontario, (province that was too dumb to elect Reform) His prices are very good, lots of Starline brass 357 Mag, 9MM, 45ACP, 44 Mag 9X21. A LOT of bullets, 38/357, 9MM, 40, 44, 45.. Some primers. Give him a call, help him clear his stock, he has supported the shooting sports for many years. All he wants to do now is shoot. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:40:36 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: "Handgun group rips government for gun-crime 'lies'" - Ottawa Cit PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 98.06.17 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PAGE: A4 SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen Handgun group rips government for gun-crime `lies' In promoting firearms registration, the Department of Justice "lied" and ``misused'' statistics on the extent of gun use in the commission of crimes in a report it prepared three years ago, says Larry Whitmore, executive manager of the Ontario Handgun Association. He said that if police laid charges and seized firearms during a domestic dispute, the guns would be considered used in the crime, even if they weren't "even unpacked." In a June 5 letter to RCMP Commissioner Philip Murray, Mr. Whitmore criticizes the Justice Department study, which ``did not point out that most of the firearms recovered from `crime scenes,' or during the investigation of gunshot suicides, had no actual involvement in the incident that was under investigation.'' Mr. Whitmore said the departmental report also ``classified 2,296 recovered air guns, flare guns, starter pistols and replicas as `firearms,' which is equivalent to saying that a lawn mower is an automobile because it has four wheels and a motor.'' Based in Mississauga, and representing 8,000 members and 240 sport shooting clubs in the province, the association says that Statistics Canada offers more reliable information. According to a December 1997 report by StatsCan's Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, only 3.4 per cent of all violent crimes involved the use of a firearm. Last July, a letter from Commissioner Murray's office to former deputy justice minister George Thomson, took exception to the way the department used the federal police force's 1993 stats. "We determined that our statistics showed that there were 73 firearms involved in a violent crime compared to the Department of Justice findings of 623 firearms involved in a violent crime," said the letter obtained under the Access to Information Act by Reform MP Garry Breitkreuz. As well, it said that in 1993, the RCMP investigated "88,162 actual violent crimes, where only 73 of these offences, or 0.08%, involved the use of firearms." However, in a May 11 letter to the editor of this newspaper, Commissioner Murray said the RCMP is "satisfied with the conclusions" of the Justice Department's 1995 report. He said the "RCMP and the Department of Justice had reached a better understanding of the scope, interpretation and methodological approach used for the research" and that the RCMP "unequivocally" supports Bill C-68, the Firearms Act, the regulations of which are scheduled to come into effect Oct. 1. However, Mr. Murray's assertions are a "pile of crap," said Mr. Whitmore. "We believe there was some political brow-beating done on the RCMP because they backed off on their accusations." In his letter to the commissioner, Mr. Whitmore stated that "incident-based reports from 154 police departments in six provinces, representing 47 per cent of the national volume of crime, found that firearms of all types were used in just 5.3 per cent of all the violent crimes recorded in these jurisdictions in 1996,"according to StatsCan. "Based on estimates of between six to nine million firearms in Canada, and assuming that a different firearm is used in every violent crime, suicide or fatal gun accident, then less than a tiny fraction of one per cent of all the firearms in Canada is ever used for a violent purpose," Mr. Whitmore added. In an interview, he said that while his association supports gun control, it opposes a registration system that will "waste hundreds of millions of dollars" and not "stop criminals from getting guns. "Handguns have been registered since 1934 and registration has done nothing to stop handguns from being used in the commission of violent crimes - and 85 to 90 per cent of [handguns] were never registered. "Registration doesn't do squat to stop criminal use of firearms." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:40:44 -0600 From: czlotea@rsa.hisd.harris.com (Cristinel Zlotea (Kriss)) Subject: Virus alert ... 1) This is a new twist. Someone is sending out a very desirable screen-saver, the Budweiser Frogs. But if you download it, you will lose everything!!! BELOW IS WHAT THE SCREENSAVER OFFER WOULD LOOK LIKE: File: BUDSAVER.EXE (24643 bytes) DL Time (28800 bps): < 1 minute 2) A computer virus is going around! It is called BUDDYLST.ZIP DO NOT DOWNLOAD or some jerk from the internet will get your screen name and password! 3) If you receive an eMail entitled "WIN A HOLIDAY" ... DO NOT open it. It will erase everything in your hard drive. Forward this letter to as many people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know about it. This information was announced very recently from Microsoft. 4) Do not open or even look at any mail that says: "RETURNED OR UNABLE TO DELIVER". This virus will attach itself to your computer components and render them useless. Immediately delete any mail items that say this. AOL has said that this is a very dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. Forward this to anyone who might access the internet. - --------------92CCB81CC78C87161259E073-- ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #441 **********************************