From - Wed Jun 17 16:33:35 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14118; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:14:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24906; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:04:30 -0600 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:04:30 -0600 Message-Id: <199806172204.QAA24906@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #442 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: O X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, June 17 1998 Volume 02 : Number 442 In this issue: Changes to Reform critic assignments Re: FW: Complaints Regina Leader Post Article Re: 60 Minutes URGENT CORRECTION Re: Prohibited Ranges "Manning Fine Tunes Shadow Cabinet" "The Unconscious Civilization" Re: Government with guns. Re: Prohibited Ranges ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:40:51 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Changes to Reform critic assignments PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 98.06.17 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PAGE: A7 BYLINE: Sheldon Alberts SOURCE: Citizen Special Manning promotes `snack pack' MPs: Media-savvy rookies expected to raise profile of Reform party Reform Leader Preston Manning is putting a more media-savvy face on his band of official Opposition critics -- hoping they'll cast bigger shadows over the national press gallery. Mr. Manning gave promotions yesterday to twentysomething ``Snack Pack'' MPs Rahim Jaffer and Rob Anders, bumping both into higher-profile shadow cabinet roles. Mr. Jaffer, the bilingual 26-year-old Edmontonian, becomes industry critic in addition to his role as Reform's chief spokesman on Quebec. The job of attacking government patronage and Senate appointments goes to Mr. Anders, the Calgary MP who cut his political teeth years ago as a paid heckler in a U.S. senate campaign. ``I view myself as a bit of a warrior, and I think these are perfectly good enemies to do battle with,'' said Mr. Anders, 26. Mr. Manning didn't deal nearly as kind a hand to Reform's hardline group of justice critics. Former RCMP officer Jack Ramsay, Reform's justice critic since 1993, has been shuffled to a posting as immigration critic. Myron Thompson, the party's prison system critic, becomes deputy indian affairs critic. And lead solicitor-general critic Garry Breitkreuz, who has headed Reform's opposition to the new national gun registry, is now deputy agriculture critic. Prior to the shuffle, party strategist Rick Anderson said changes to the shadow cabinet would be ``decided strictly on performance.'' ``We're trying to build on the momentum of a very good first session by promoting some rookies and giving veterans some new challenges,'' said Jim Armour, Mr. Manning's press secretary. To fill the law-and-order vacancies, Mr. Manning has named Jim Hart as justice critic. Jim Abbott becomes solicitor-general critic. Mr. Ramsay said he was ``not upset at all'' by his move. ``Perhaps it's time to move on,'' he said. Reform has been frustrated by the lack of national attention it gets on criminal justice issues, which tend to resonate deeper in Reform's Alberta and rural British Columbia heartland. Both Mr. Hart and Mr. Abbott are considered strong Commons performers, quick with camera-ready quotes and affable with the media. Mr. Hart is also hoping to round off some of the rough edges of Reform's no-mercy reputation on justice issues. ``Reform's justice policy is about more than simply stiffer sentences for violent offenders,'' he said. ``We also feel very strongly there should be rehabilitation and early detection. But those are areas where we don't get as much attention.'' Mr. Anders' appointment is perhaps the most intriguing of the shadow cabinet postings given the importance the party places on Senate reform. Albertans go to the polls Oct. 19 to elect two standby senators, and Reform wants to use Mr. Anders to embarrass Prime Minister Jean Chretien into appointing the winner. Mr. Anders spent two months in 1994 as a hired heckler for a Republican candidate in an Oklahoma senate race, where he donned a Pinocchio nose to symbolize lying politicians. Though such pranks are often frowned upon on Parliament Hill, Reform believes Mr. Anders' penchant for theatrics fits with the scorn it hopes to heap on the Senate. ``It's going to be very difficult for the prime minister if he does not see fit to recognize the will of the Albertans,'' Mr. Anders said. ``We'll have to keep upping the ante until it gets too hot in the kitchen.'' Most of the top jobs in Reform's caucus hierarchy remained unchanged. Deborah Grey remains deputy leader, while Chuck Strahl and Randy White remain party whip and house leader. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:40:46 -0600 From: Kevin.Watson Subject: Re: FW: Complaints When asking for an email address for the Complaints Commission with regard to the Ontario Provincial Police this was their response...OPP webmaster wrote: > I believe this should be answered by you ... Well, not much help there! Anyone else have a more informative answer to my question? Thanks. Kevin Watson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:41:23 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Regina Leader Post Article PUBLICATION: The Regina Leader-Post DATE: 98.06.15 PAGE: A11 BYLINE: Trombley, Nathanael ILLUSTRATION: Could gun control laws have prevented shooting in Oregon? Gun control isn't the answer No one knows why 15-year-old Kip Kinkel allegedly went on a murderous rampage, killing both his parents and two fellow students at Thurston High School in Springfield, Oregon. This brutal tragedy is a crime that won't soon be forgotten. All that is left for the people of Springfield in the wake of such horrific violence is to begin to move forward and leave the past behind. It is argued by some that this scenario presents good reason for stricter gun control laws. I disagree. In any case such as this, the public sentiment quickly springs toward a mentality of, "We have to do something!" I don't think people always stop and consider if the "something" they are trying to do is the right thing. This is largely due to the fact that situations of this nature quickly become very emotional. When people's actions are governed purely from an emotional standpoint, the logical course of action is often not taken. For instance, if this situation demonstrates the need for tougher gun-control laws, then this means that tougher laws would have prevented this tragedy from happening. But this is not the case. Kip Kinkel was only 15 years old, making it illegal for him to purchase a firearm. Hence, it would seem he must have obtained his firearms illegally. Apparently, this was the case, because Kinkel was expelled from school for having a stolen gun that he purchased at school in his locker. So would tougher gun-control laws have prevented this tragedy? Gun control never played a role in Kinkel obtaining weapons. He still would have had the guns because he didn't go through the legal channels for obtaining a firearm. If gun-control laws are changed in hopes of avoiding future tragedies of this nature, people will be sorely disappointed. Gun-control laws restrict the activity of legal gun owners. Legal gun owners are not the problem. The vast majority of people who will be affected by stricter gun laws are responsible citizens using firearms for recreation and personal safety. Is punishing this type of person going to have the desired effect? I think you can see that it won't. If we really want to see a change, we can start by examining what is wrong in our society that a 15-year-old, for whatever reason, feels compelled to kill his parents and schoolmates. There is no quick and easy recipe for fixing the state of moral decline in Canada and the United States, and I don't pretend to hold the solution. I merely point out that gun control isn't at the heart of the real problem. Furthermore, I don't feel that this case holds the necessary facts for a valid argument in favor of stricter gun control. I will be the first to agree that the situation demands action, but actions must not be determined in the midst of an emotional frenzy. In the end, such actions won't solve anything. The old adage is true: guns don't kill people; people kill people. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:54:24 -0600 From: "Jean-Francois Avon" Subject: Re: 60 Minutes To Toyota representatives. I think you miss my point. It never asked you to try to manipulate medias. I simply want to notify you that I am slowly changing my consuming habits and, as often as feasible, refrain from buying Japanese products because it is the only way that I could exert pressure on Japan to steer themselve away from it's dangerous tendency to provide opportunity for totalitarianism to take root more easily in any spot of the world. Refraining to buy products would be ineffective if I did not tell you I choose to do so. It is regrettable since my Celica was a car I appreciated greatly but lately, I choosed a manufacturer from another country even if Japanese cars were my favorite (I owned two Honda Prelude and one Toyota Celica). There are a number of TV channels or ways of advertising and you could simply verify that the one you choose to patronize do not push the philosophies that you don't want. In any case, wether or not you like the philosophy, I personnally (and for my company and my clients) choose to limit my Japanese buyings as long as Japan plays that little totalitarian game. Regards. Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds, (Montréal) QC, Canada Cc: Canadian Firearms Digest, Sporting Shooters Association of Australia - ------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 16 Jun 98 17:19:47 +1000, Toyota Net Response Centre wrote: >Dear Jean-Francois > >We wish to acknowledge receipt of your correspondence regarding the recently screened 60 Minutes program. > >Toyota Australia's association with the Channel 9 program is simply one of sponsorship and precludes our company from influencing editorial content in accordance with the right of free speech for all. > >We are certain that as a responsible citizen you will appreciate that any attempt by a major sponsor to manipulate any form of media would be considered immediately as an attempt of unreasonable censorship which of course, would violate not only the law, but also inhibit an important part of our democracy. > >We are not privy to the full content of each program prior to it going to air and seek your understanding in this matter. > >We value your association with our company and trust that our explanation will permit you to continue this relationship. > >Regards >Toyota Net Response Centre >on behalf of >Toyota Motor Corporation Australia Limited Jean-Francois Avon, B.Sc. Physics, Montreal, Canada JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers Instrumentation & control, LabView programming. PGP keys: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:54:25 -0600 From: Lorne Gunter Subject: URGENT CORRECTION Folks: I made a bone-headed computational error in my column of June 14, which went out via e-mail under the head "More outrageous gun stats from Ottawa," and which appeared in our paper as "Justification for gun registration evaporating." When calculating relative rates of gun use in crimes per 100,000 of population -- StatsCans vs. the Canadian Firearms Centre vs the FBI -- I put the decimals in the wrong spot in each case. StatsCans raw numbers do not yeild a rate of gun crime in Canada per 100,000 of 0.7, as I claimed. They yeild a rate of 7 per 100,000. The rate that results from the numbers used by the CFC is 81 per 100,000, not 8.1, and the FBI's stats work out to a rate of 189 per 100,000, not 18.9. This was a rookie-league mistake and I am very embarrassed that I made it. I apologize to you, especially if any of you have repeated my numbers, reposted them or forwarded them to friends. If you have, I implore you to post this correction to the same sites and people. My error, however, does not change the point I was trying to make with the numbers, since the ratios among the three remain the same. Canadian gun crime rates are much lower than those in the US, about one-twenty-fifth, despite a rate of gun ownership that is at least half that of the Americans. Using the CFCs numbers, you come up with a gun-crime rate that is half that of the US, which, to use the government's own words, is "just not possible." The work of John Lott, David Kopel, Dan Polsby, Gary Kleck and others in the US have, in my view, destroyed the argument that legal access to firearms increases their criminal use. And a comparison of these three rates -- even one as sloppy as mine -- would tend to confirm this. Canadians own a lot of guns, almost as many per capita as Americans, but don't use them against one another. A few words, too, on other complaints leveled against that column by StatsCan and the CFC. Andrew Kohut, executive director of StatsCan's Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, claims my overall numbers for gun crimes in Canada in 1995 are lower than the agency's by a factor of at least three. However, all of the numbers I attribute to StatsCan come from their own periodical, the Juristat, Vol. 17 no.7, entitled "Weapons and Violent Crime," prepared by Tracey Leesti. Leesti uses Revised UCR Survey numbers, which make them vaild for comparative purposes, and claims there were 122,000 violent crimes in Canada in 1995, 1.8 per cent of which were committed with a firearm, or about 2,200, the figure I used through my column. Gordon Parry of the CFC objects to my claim that the CFC believes over 24,000 gun crimes were committed in Canada in 1995. Over 17,500 of these fall under the category "other," tables for which, he asserts, clearly state in the footnotes include crimes committed with prohibited knives, etc. However, the CFC occasionally uses this "other" figure itself without referring to the rider in the footnote, and it frequently lets Wendy Cukier and others cite it in letters to the editor and brochures, without feeling the need to correct them. So I feel justified attributing that number to the CFC, since they have shown themselves content to leave Canadians with that impression. Again, my most profound apologies for the mathematical error in my column. I hope you can continue to trust that I do my best to write reliable pieces on the gun control debate. - --Lorne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:54:37 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Prohibited Ranges >If you own registered guns, they are all restricted. Registered full >autos, converted autos and short barreled/.25/.32 pistols are all >restricted firearms, by virtue of the fact that they are registered. NO. By virtue of the fact that they are DEFINED IN THE LAW as "restricted weapons." >They are considered prohibited if they are NOT registered. NO. If they are DEFINED IN THE LAW as "prohibited weapons." > If you can >shoot a restricted rifle, like an AR-15, you can shoot any registered >rifle. IF you can get a Permit to Transport to take it to a range. That varies from locality to locality, and is a bitch to fight because the law is vague, confusing and badly written -- and also there is NO appeal procedure for a refusal to issue a Permit to Carry. Dave Tomlinson, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:04:14 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: "Manning Fine Tunes Shadow Cabinet" OTTAWA - - Opposition Leader Preston Manning announced changes to his shadow cabinet today. The Shadow Cabinet Preston Manning Prime Minister Jean Chretien Deborah Grey Deputy Prime Minister Herb Gray Randy White Government House Leader Don Boudria Chuck Strahl Government Whip Bob Kilger Howard Hilstrom Minister of Agriculture Lyle Vanclief Inky Mark Minister of Canadian Heritage Sheila Copps Jack Ramsay Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Lucienne Robillard Art Hanger Minister of Defence Art Eggleton Bill Gilmour Minister of the Environment Christine Stewart Monte Solberg Minister of Finance Paul Martin John Reynolds Minister of Fisheries and Oceans David Anderson Bob Mills Minister of Foreign Affairs Lloyd Axworthy Grant Hill Minister of Health Allan Rock Diane Ablonczy Minister of Human Resources Development Pierre Pettigrew Mike Scott Minister of Indian Affairs & Northern Development Jane Stewart Rahim Jaffer Minister of Industry John Manley Val Meredith Minister of Intergovernmental Governmental Affairs Stéphane Dion Charlie Penson Minister of International Trade Sergio Marchi Jim Hart Minister of Justice Anne McLellan Dale Johnston Minister of Labour Lawrence MacAulay Dave Chatters Minister of Natural Resources Ralph Goodale Werner Schmidt Minister of Public Works & Government Services Alfonso Gagliano Jason Kenney Minister of Revenue Herb Dhaliwal Jim Abbott Solicitor General Andy Scott Lee Morrison Minister of Transport David Collenette John Williams President of the Treasury Board Marcel Massé Peter Goldring Minister of Veterans Affairs Fred Mifflin Complete List of Official Opposition Critics Ministry Shadow Cabinet Deputy Critic Minister of Agriculture Lyle Vanclief Howard Hilstrom Jake Hoeppner Garry Breitkreuz Minister of Canadian Heritage Sheila Copps Inky Mark Eric Lowther Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Lucienne Robillard Jack Ramsay Grant McNally Minister of Defence Art Eggleton Art Hanger Leon Benoit Minister of the Environment Christine Stewart Bill Gilmour Rick Casson Minister of Finance Paul Martin Monte Solberg Gerry Ritz Dick Harris Ken Epp Minister of Fisheries and Oceans David Anderson John Reynolds Gary Lunn Minister of Foreign Affairs Lloyd Axworthy Bob Mills Keith Martin Chuck Strahl Minister of Health Allan Rock Grant Hill Reed Elley Minister of Human Resources Development Pierre Pettigrew Diane Ablonczy Maurice Vellacott Deborah Grey Minister of Indian Affairs & Northern Development Jane Stewart Mike Scott Derrek Konrad Myron Thompson Ministry Shadow Cabinet Deputy Critic Minister of Industry John Manley Rahim Jaffer Jim Pankiw President of Queen's Privy Council for Canada & Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Stéphane Dion Val Meredith Rahim Jaffer Deepak Obhrai Minister of International Trade Sergio Marchi Charlie Penson Darrell Stinson Minister of Justice Anne McLellan Jim Hart Chuck Cadman Jim Gouk Jay Hill Randy White Minister of Labour Lawrence MacAulay Dale Johnston Minister of Natural Resources Ralph Goodale Dave Chatters John Duncan Minister of Public Works & Government Services Alfonso Gagliano Werner Schmidt Cliff Breitkreuz Minister of Revenue Herb Dhaliwal Jason Kenney Paul Forseth Solicitor General Andy Scott Jim Abbott Allan Kerpan Minister of Transport David Collenette Lee Morrison Roy Bailey President of the Treasury Board Marcel Masse John Williams Philip Mayfield Minister of Veterans Affairs Fred Mifflin Peter Goldring Caucus Officers and Special Assignments Caucus Chair Deb Grey Opposition House Leader Randy White Germant Grewal Opposition Whip Chuck Strahl Jay Hill Question Period Co-ordinator Jay Hill Grant McNally Democratic Reform Critic & Chairman of the Scrutiny and Regulations Committee Ted White Children and Families Eric Lowther Senate/Patronage Rob Anders Ontario Organizer John Reynolds - - 30 - For more information, please contact: Opposition Press Office 992-2815 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:04:18 -0600 From: Charles Stansfield Subject: "The Unconscious Civilization" To help us all understand how our society and government *got* this way, I strongly recommend reading "The Unconscious Civilization" by John Ralson Saul. Part of CBC Radio's 1995 Massey Lecture Series, I am amazed that the CBC actually allowed this 5-hour series on the air, because its goal is to let the sun shine into the dark crevices of the corridors of power, which govern our governors and us. Perhaps Simon Jester is alive and well within "Mother" Corporation after all! The lectures have been transcribed into the form of a 190-page book. Saul uses his considerable vocabularly freely, and that makes this book like a gold mine -- you will strike paydirt, but only if you stick with it and dig. But the hard going is worth it, because you will be able to *see* how we have been trained to accept those in power over us as being "legitimate" and "proper", in much the same way as a circus elephant remains tethered to a stake by a slender rope. When it was a calf, the elephant was restrained by a strong chain or rope, and learned that it could not break it. After a certain length of time, it never bothers trying to break free again. An adult circus elephant can be chained by nothing more than a weak rope, because the pachyderm *believes* that it can never escape its chains. Elephants must have originated in Canada. Read Saul's book! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:04:21 -0600 From: Dave Kratky Subject: Re: Government with guns. Peter Cronhelm wrote: > A small article in the Calgary sun about the new military leader of > Nigeria. The article went on to tell how the previous dictator had led a > brutal regime and how all the people were afraid of the secret police. > The quote that made me smile was: "The people are afraid because the > government has all the guns." > Isn't this exactly what Jean, Al and Anne have in mind for Canada? Of > course this is only for OUR own good right? But that sort of thing could NEVER happen in a country like Canada surely??? - -- Dave Kratky o/o VAM Computers: (519) 940-3097 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:04:27 -0600 From: Dave Kratky Subject: Re: Prohibited Ranges Alan Harper wrote: > > >I just recently rejoined my local gun range after a few years hiatus. > > >local Range officer informed me that I will not be allowed ( by LAW) to > > >fire my semi automatic Registered FN-1A1 nor my AK-84 S1. I am a > > >handgunner as well and will be recieving my C-301 permit to convey in a > If you own registered guns, they are all restricted. Registered full > autos, converted autos and short barreled/.25/.32 pistols are all > restricted firearms, by virtue of the fact that they are registered. > They are considered prohibited if they are NOT registered. If you can > shoot a restricted rifle, like an AR-15, you can shoot any registered > rifle. I believe the folks over at CFC said a short time ago, you will be allowed to "occasionally" shoot such nasty firearms. (Whatever that means!) - -- Dave Kratky o/o VAM Computers: (519) 940-3097 ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #442 **********************************