From - Thu Jul 2 17:01:03 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (majordomo@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25067; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:13:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03505; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:01:19 -0600 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:01:19 -0600 Message-Id: <199807021801.MAA03505@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #472 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: O X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, July 2 1998 Volume 02 : Number 472 In this issue: fund name Desk Manual Re: Desk Manual Big Brother FED UP II Rally Bulletin #17 More On War Chest FED UP II Rally Bulletin #17 Re: 20mm Lahti Re: Whig-Standard Article: "Gun control laws save student lives" Re: the computer registry Prohibited with grandfathering question Another response from CFC re: Fort Saskatchewan RCMP / CFC and sentencing Duck Decoys Carving Re: FED UP II Rally Bulletin #17 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:03:02 -0600 From: "rod mcbeath" Subject: fund name > Subject: War Chest Donations SNIP > And lets give this fund a name. If the fund is a go, how about the "Freedom Fund"? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:03:08 -0600 From: dgen@infomatch.com (Damien) Subject: Desk Manual >Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:34:09 -0600 >From: David A Tomlinson >Subject: "FIREARMS ACT AND RELATED CRIMINAL CODE DESK MANUAL > >Simon says, "My, what a lot of interesting reading. Does anyone want the >NFA to produce copies at about $95 each, postpaid?" > Nope.....I wanna free one from my wonderful government. Who can I bug for one considering I now know it exists? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 05:33:05 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Desk Manual >Nope.....I wanna free one from my wonderful government. Who can I bug for >one considering I now know it exists? Your MP, Anne McLellan, and the CFC. Dave... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 05:33:13 -0600 From: DONGRES Subject: Big Brother A tiny chip from Kurt Saxon Home Page: """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" A fable tells of a bunch of frogs who wanted a king. They petitioned the Great Frog and he put a log in their pond and called it their king. After awhile, the frogs got bored with their king and raged at the Great Frog to give them a king that would do something. The Great Frog then sent them a new king, a stork,which ate them all up. The moral to that story is that the frogs didn't need a king. But rather than manage their own affairs, they wanted a leader, and one with clout. The Great Frog simply wrote them off as being of no use to the species. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 05:36:35 -0600 From: Al Dorans Subject: FED UP II Rally Bulletin #17 Dear Firearms Owner July 2, 1998 Bulletin #17 In his book "The Canadian Revolution", Peter C. Newman stated that for the past 15 years there has been a quiet revolution going on within Canada. It is still going on. Canadians are moving from deference to defiance. Historically, Canadians deferred to their politicians and did whatever they were told to do. That changed with the Meech Lake and Charlottetown Accords. Canadians became defiant by voting against what their politicians told them to do. That worried the politicians for they were losing control over Canadian citizens who valued their freedoms. Bill C-68 occurs in that context. Are firearms owners going to lie down like sheep and wait for the slaughter of their shooting freedoms and the legalized theft of their firearms? Or will gun owners stand up with backbone and protest the constitutional, civil rights and private property violations in Bill C-68? If the answer is to fight, then Canada's firearms owners need to give up a day of hunting, fishing or work to get to Parliament Hill on September 22nd. The British Columbia Wildlife Federation with 35,000 members has joined as a Sponsor of the FED UP II Rally. The BCWF is moving ahead with a national postcard campaign of proxy votes for those unable to attend the Rally. Details will be posted soon. If you wish to be on the official Sponsor List, then contact Rally organizers promptly. To give you an idea of how all the large firearms organizations are supporting the Rally, the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters with 79,000 members has sent notices to all of its members' email addresses; all of its member clubs; approximately 3,000 retailers; and selected members and other interested parties. In addition, over 50 members have each been given a minimum of ten 8-1/2" x 11" notices to display in their communities. A news release has been issued, and the next issue of their Hotline to all members will carry a Rally notice. More will follow. Jules Sobrian, President of the Responsible Firearms Owners of Ontario, illustrates what can be done to get gun owners on the Hill. He has booked 3 coaches to leave from the Peterborough area for the Fed Up II Rally in Ottawa on September 22, departing at 6.00 A.M. Seats will be $20 each on a prepaid basis. Call 1-705-799-5230 for reservations. Jules advises gun owners to take the time and make the effort to show that you are fed up and not going to take it any more. This pattern needs to be repeated by store owners, gun clubs, individuals, businesses, and firearms associations right across the country. We need financial contributions NOW when they will do the most good. Outside of contributions from the large gun organizations, we have received about $1,500 so far in donations. Projected Rally costs will be around $45,000. Please make your cheques and money orders PAYABLE TO "Fed Up II Rally". Currently, there are 3 deposit options available: Attention Terri Muus. 1) An interbranch payment at any branch of the CIBC; Transit - 986; Account #1697331; 2) Mail directly to CIBC, 1518 Merivale Road, Nepean, Ontario, K2G 3J6. 3) Deposit directly at CIBC, Cityview Plaza, Nepean, Ontario, K2G 3J6. mailto: kingsley@freenet.carleton.ca(1-613-523-6604); gour@videotron.ca(1-514-624-5530)2george.penfold@sympatico.ca(1-613-721-9384 ; at194@freenet.carleton.ca (1-613-253-7564); webauthor@fedupcanada.org; aldorans@magma.ca(1-613-828-8805) FAX(1-613-828-6967); linda@magma.ca(1-613-737-5775) http://www.fedupcanada.org Al Dorans, Chairman FED UP II Rally ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 05:39:31 -0600 From: "a.warner" Subject: More On War Chest In Digest # 471 I suggested setting up a war chest (for lack of a better name) with the following observations : >Lets all start building a war chest to fight our forthcoming battles. I'm >not suggesting a loonie or fifty bucks, but sending what you can afford. To illustrate, lets take a membership figure of 7,000 (I take this low figure to confuse our opponents about the real and much larger membership) and multiply by a donation of $20. from every member and those who read only. This gives us a total fund figure of $140,000. I'm sure most of us can afford that. If we made the same $20. donation twice a year the fund would double in size to $280,000. And if that amount of donation was kept up for the years 1999, 2000 and 2001 the fund would reach a staggering $840,000, only $160,00 short of one million dollars. Now lets add one donation of $20 in 1998 which would bring in another $140,000. It would leave us only $20,000 short of that one million mark. With more than the 7,000 membership the fund could reach a much larger and unbelievable amount. That would certainly give us a well-funded base to fight bill C-68. Even if C-68 does not come into effect on their promised start date (although I'm sure the lieberals have no choice but to activate it to save face) a one year donation would help considerable. I too wish to keep receiving the magazine and Point Blank. I usually make several copies of Point Blank and spread them around in various doctor's offices which old age forces me to attend. Lets get something going here. There have been a number of well-posted suggestions. Lets carry through and not let this opportunity slip away. It's only about one case of beer (for those that indulge) to make this happen. Surely our rights are worth more than that. And to make our battle even stronger, push Reform. Between the two a lot of things CAN happen. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 05:39:40 -0600 From: Al Dorans Subject: FED UP II Rally Bulletin #17 Dear Firearms Owner July 2, 1998 Bulletin #18 For the shooting sports to survive in Canada, it is vital that the recreational firearms community unite as one. This internal process has already begun with all the large gun organizations throwing their unqualified support behind the FED UP II Rally Organizing Committee. The unification has been strengthened further through invitations to Canada's 2-3 million francophone firearms owners in French. This has been perceived positively as a measure of respect. Here is where we need to improve internally. On the Canadian Firearms Digest there seems to be far too much wrangling and bickering over suspected motives, turf wars, unsubstantiated accusations, magazine disputes and telephone company wars. These self-serving acts divide us and deflect our focus away from the true target. Instead of criticizing one another, our attitude should change to reinforcing those whose actions strengthen our common cause. Therefore, let us reorient ourselves to repealing Bill C-68 and replacing the rascals in Ottawa that threaten to destroy our way of life. The way to do that is to build a massively powerful political voting bloc that will unite with other fed up groups to protect our shared freedoms. The time and place for that showdown is at high noon on Parliament Hill, Ottawa, September 22nd, 1998. Here's how you can make a difference. Right across the country, persuade a gun club to call a local Gun Rally. It only takes 3 weeks to organize. This will serve many purposes: 1) To inform Canadians of the threat to their private property and constitutional rights in Bill C-68; 2) To sign the Breitkreuz Repeal C-68 Petition; 3) To sign the Breitkreuz Property Rights Petition; 4) To sign the BCWF national postcard proxy vote campaign for those unable to attend the Rally; 5) To book Rally buses and prepay bus registration; 6) To take up a collection to subsidize the buses or support the Rally financially. Then distribute Rally information everywhere and spread the word. We need financial contributions NOW when they will accomplish the greatest good. Donations arriving 2 days before the Rally date are too late to affect the program. Please make your cheques and money orders PAYABLE TO "Fed Up II Rally". Currently, there are 3 deposit options available: Attention Terri Muus. 1) An interbranch payment at any branch of the CIBC; Transit - 986; Account #1697331; 2) Mail directly to CIBC, 1518 Merivale Road, Nepean, Ontario, K2G 3J6. 3) Deposit directly at CIBC, Cityview Plaza, Nepean, Ontario, K2G 3J6. mailto:kingsley@freenet.carleton.ca(1-613-523-6604);george.penfold@sympatico .ca (1-613-721-9384); at194@freenet.carleton.ca(1-613-253-7564); gour@videotron.ca (1-514-624-5530); webauthor@fedupcanada.org ; aldorans@magma.ca (1-613-828- 8805) FAX (1-613-828-6967); linda@magma.ca (1-613- 737-5775) http://www.fedupcanada.org Al Dorans, Chairman FED UP II Rally ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:07:09 -0600 From: Dave Kratky Subject: Re: 20mm Lahti > A gentleman in my area apparently has one, in mint condition, with ammo. :) I gotta shoot this one! - -- Dave Kratky o/o VAM Computers: (519) 940-3097 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:07:13 -0600 From: Dave Kratky Subject: Re: Whig-Standard Article: "Gun control laws save student lives" Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1 wrote: > UBLICATION: The Kingston Whig-Standard > DATE: 98.06.29 > EDITION: FINAL > SECTION: Editorial > PAGE: 6 > COLUMN: Speaking Out > BYLINE: Janet Nielsen > SOURCE: The Kingston Whig-Standard > The U.S. Constitution says ``the right of the people to keep and bear arms > shall not be infringed'' (Amendment 2). Partially because of this, children > are gaining legal access to guns and are not afraid to use them. The current > state of the problem seems to indicate that a change in rules wouldn't solve > anything. The gun crisis is deeply rooted in America's history. Uh huh.. Naturally, it's ILLEGAL in the states for kids to own guns.. Just like it is here... Shhesh... STUPID! - -- Dave Kratky o/o VAM Computers: (519) 940-3097 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:07:16 -0600 From: Dave Kratky Subject: Re: the computer registry Don Shesnicky wrote: > The $30 million contract was awarded to Electronic Data Systems Corp. > (EDS) of Plano Tex, and UK-based SHL Systemhouse Europe Ltd. in June > of 1997 through an open bidding process. EDS is responsible for > development of the main CFRS application and part of the implementation, > while SHL is in charge of developing the interface with other databases > and systems integration. $30 million eh? Can that be added to the $125 million+ spent so far? - -- Dave Kratky o/o VAM Computers: (519) 940-3097 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:50:54 -0600 From: "Carlo Robazza" Subject: Prohibited with grandfathering question This is a reply I got to my questions »Dear Mr. Robazza: » »Although it is true that presently registered firearms will »have to be re-registered, it is by no means conceded that the »present database is unreliable. We are simply taking this »opportunity to verify our data before it is transferred into »the new registration system. » »The data presently in the registration system will allow us to »determine which handguns are becoming prohibited as of October »1, 1998, and which of those handguns are grandfathered to their »owners. » »I trust this answers your question. Please do not hesitate to »make further enquiries with us. » »Yours truly, » »Kathleen Roussel »Communications Group »Canadian Firearms Centre » ---------- »»From: Carlo Robazza »»To: Centre Firearms, Canadian »»Subject: Re: Prohibited with grandfathering question... »»Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 02:56PM »» »»Dear Ms. Roussel »» »»Sorry for the second email but I just thought of something. How »»will the CFC know the history of a firearm's registration? My »»understanding of the new registration system is that all currently »»registered firearms will have to be re-registered by the current »»owner since the the old FRAS database will not be used to »»import data due to problems with the data's reliability. »» »»If this is the case, will the CFC be using the old, unreliable »»FRAS database to determine which handguns are to be »»confiscated? »» »» ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:50:59 -0600 From: "Carlo Robazza" Subject: Another response from CFC »Dear Mr. Robazza: » »For a person to continue to have possession of a prohibited »handgun, both the person and the handgun must be grandfathered. » This means that the individual must have had continuous »possession of at least one registered, prohibited handgun since »February 14, 1995. Similarly, the handgun itself must have »been in the registration system since at least February 14, »1995. It does not have to have remained with one owner during »that time but must always have been registered to an »individual. » »A store's inventory is not registered but simply recorded. A »firearm in a store's inventory could therefore not be »grandfathered as it is clearly not registered to an individual. » »I hope this clears up the confusion. Please do not hesitate to »write to us again if you have further questions or comments. » »Yours truly, » »Kathleen Roussel »Communications Group »Canadian Firearms Centre » » ---------- »»From: Carlo Robazza »»To: Centre Firearms, Canadian »»Cc: digest »»Subject: Re: Prohibited with grandfathering question... »»Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 01:50PM »» »»Dear Ms. Roussell, »» »»So, let me get this straight. Any to-be-prohibited firearm that was »»manufactured AFTER Feb. 14, 1995 will be confiscated, without »»compensation? Was this known back in 1995? My understanding »»was that if you were grandfathered you could buy them, no matter »»when they were manufactured. »» »»Also, can you explain the reasoning behind your comment about »»the handgun being in a store's inventory at any time after the 1995 »»date? Does a firearm get removed from the registration database »»when it is in a store's inventory? »» »»Still confused, »» »»Carlo Robazza »» »»Centre Firearms, Canadian wrote: »» »»> »Dear Mr. Robazza: »»> » »»> »Thank you for your question with respect to grandfathering. »»> » »»> »With respect to the class of handguns which will become »»> »prohibited on October 1, 1998, both the owner and the firearm »»> »have to be grandfathered for the handgun to remain in a »»> »person's hands after October 1 (and all applicable amnesties, »»> »if any). »»> » »»> »In other words, taking for granted that you are grandfathered, »»> »the handgun you are planning to buy from an individual would »»> »also have to be grandfathered, which is to say that it was »»> »continuously in the registration system since at least February »»> »14, 1995. If it was in a store's inventory at any point since »»> »then, it would not be considered grandfathered. I would »»> »suggest, in the circumstances, that you ascertain where the »»> »individual got the firearm, whether from another individual or »»> »from a store. »»> » »»> »I hope this is of assistance to you. Please do not hesitate to »»> »contact us again if you have any further questions. »»> » »»> »Yours truly, »»> » »»> »Kathleen Roussel »»> »Communications Group »»> »Canadian Firearms Centre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:52:57 -0600 From: "Barry Glasgow" Subject: re: Fort Saskatchewan RCMP / CFC and sentencing In message "Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #463", you write: >Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 04:26:22 -0600 >From: Peter Kearns >Subject: Fort Saskatchewan RCMP > [snip] >On Thursday I received a call from some incompetent a----le at the >Fort Saskatchewan RCMP. "Mr. Kearns, this is Cst. ------, We have >information that you have recently illegally transferred "weapons" >from your home to an address in Edmonton"...... [snip] What is amazing about this call (aside from the fact that he was using your attempt at complying with the law against you) is the real ingenious police work in calling to warn you that they have this information thereby allowing you time to move the guns again if they were in fact illegally located [shaking head in disbelief]. [snip] >What always surprises me is that if you give a moron a uniform, he / >she then assumes that everyone he / she deals with is even stupider >than he / she is........ Forget the fact that these goofs are supposed to be catching those people responsible for the illegal gun trade. Ever hear of a Mohawk "warrior" sending forms off to FRAS before making his trip across the St. Lawrence ? On a side note; Sunday's paper carried a story where James Couture received a two-year sentence for attempted murder in the shotgun wounding of a police officer during an armed standoff. The defense lawyer used heartwrenching story of a troubled man's penchant for booze and drugs as an excuse. Can the Justice Department explain how such a man can aquire a firearm legally and why this man didn't receive the tough sentences we keep hearing the CFC boasting about when praising C-68 ? This man is the classic example of what C-68 is supposed to fix and here's what is supposed to happen (aside from the attempted murder) according to the specified sections of the Firearms Act; 86. Unsafe handling and transport - up to 2 years for first offense - up to 5 years for subsequent offense or summary conviction 87. Pointing a firearm at a person - up to 5 years or summary conviction 88. Possessing a weapon dangerous to the public peace or for committing offense - up to 10 years or summary conviction ... and possibly 96. Possessing a firearm aquired by an offence - 1 to 10 years or summary conviction up to 1 year 99. Unauthorized transfer of firearms - 1 to 10 years 117.01 Firearms possession while under prohibition - indictable up to 10 years or punishable on summary conviction. The tough-on-crime part of C68 is an illusion, a joke and an affront to all lawful firearms owners impacted by it. Barry Glasgow Woodlawn, Ont. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:01:11 -0600 From: Charles Stansfield Subject: Duck Decoys Carving Hi, Folks -- Just to let you know about a neat website, if you are into duck decoys for either using or display, or if you want to learn how to carve your own. I have heard of this chap before, Vic Kirkman. He is supposed to be one of the best, and now he is online. Will have online *courses*, even! The URL is http://www.mindspring.com/~kirkman Cheers, Charles marshduck@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:01:16 -0600 From: DONGRES Subject: Re: FED UP II Rally Bulletin #17 Al Dorans wrote: > Dear Firearms Owner July 2, 1998 Bulletin #18 > ------ > Here's how you can make a difference. Right across the country, persuade > a gun club to call a local Gun Rally. It only takes 3 weeks to organize. > This will serve many purposes: 1) To inform Canadians of the threat to > their private property and constitutional rights in Bill C-68; 2) To sign > the Breitkreuz Repeal C-68 Petition; 3) To sign the Breitkreuz Property > Rights Petition; 4) To sign the BCWF national postcard proxy vote > campaign for those unable to attend the Rally; 5) To book Rally buses and > prepay bus registration; 6) To take up a collection to subsidize the > buses or support the Rally financially. Then distribute Rally > information everywhere and spread the word. ************************* It may be that I see it rather simplistic but: 1) If 7,000,000 gun owners vote Reform we wouldn't have to worry about C-68 in the first place and save lot of money & headache to boot. 2) They would vote Reform IF it wasn't for CBC's present "editors". As one old chap told me "I cannot vote Reform because they are all religious bigots" (our former gun club president!) When questioned WHICH one is that, he couldn't really tell, he didn't know any Reformer but he does spend good deal of time in front of TV. (Well he does know Reformer now) 3) Those gun owners who vote NDP, PC, or don't vote at all, really vote for Liberals, and many don't realize that. As someone told me "this time I'm not going to vote for anyone I'm FED UP" - how bright! Isn't that what Liberals want? We still have gun owners who - beacuse of CBC conditioning - believe that C-68, GST, International Politics etc. are less important than which residence Preston Manning moves in (because of security). ******* I noticed there are now three petitions to be signed by gunowners. And I believe most don't know about them at all. Many if not most gunowners are not on the net. By the way, which URL are these petitions on? They have to be EASY accessible to anyone to be really effective else they are just in-house private business. Some gun clubs are well organized & informed and some are not. Just a reminder, there are now TWO coaches for Rally II leaving from Sault Ste. Marie as tiny gun club of Wawa decided to pay for one extra which takes 46. They had only 6 people to send so there's still room! And yes if those from far away West help with coaches for those closer to Ottawa, as someone already mentioned, it'll be cheaper than if they travel the distance. Better yet support NFA, and we who are closer should ALL go to Ottawa. Every buck counts. Note: Does anyone experienced problem with Netscape Communicator as far as number of E-Mails is concerned? Mine counts always one more than I actually receive. I thought it's just faulty count but I did noticed some e-mails missing. I didn't see one of my posts yet later I've seen a reply to it, else I would think it was removed by the moderator (sorry) Saipan ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #472 **********************************