From - Mon Jul 13 21:57:44 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (majordomo@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24747; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:14:36 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26917; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:04:51 -0600 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:04:51 -0600 Message-Id: <199807102304.RAA26917@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #486 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: RO X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, July 10 1998 Volume 02 : Number 486 In this issue: RCMP Officer Pulls Gun IMPORTANT - Search & Seizure #2 Re: Serial Numbers Re: S & S list Dual justice re: Saskatchewan Area Firearms Officer competition Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #484 Re: Gun control on the West Coast. Cassels is Homesick Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #483 -Reply Re: Something to think about (leaked information...) Pepper spray??!! WINNEPEG POLICE CHIEF QUITS Re: IMPORTANT - Search & Seizure item Re: Prohibition Hearing Re: Prohibition Hearing. Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #485 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:13:15 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: RCMP Officer Pulls Gun July 7, 1998 RCMP officer pulled gun at party, faces sanctions KAMLOOPS, B.C. (CP) -- A Vancouver RCMP officer faces disciplinary action for pointing his service revolver at fellow partygoers who thought he was too drunk to drive. Const. Chad Netherway, 24, now stationed at White Rock, pleaded guilty in provincial court last July to a charge of pointing a firearm. He was fined $500 and prohibited from possessing a firearm for three years, except while on duty. Netherway was trying to leave a house party in Kamloops in January 1997 when he pointed his gun at four people he believed had taken his car keys because they thought he was too drunk to drive. Netherway demanded his keys, giving everyone to the count of three to produce them, a witness told an RCMP hearing Tuesday. Robert Birchall said Netherway drew his gun when he counted two and began scanning to room, eventually pointing the gun directly at him. The three-member RCMP adjudication board is investigating an internal charge of disgraceful conduct. If found guilty, Netherway faces sanctions ranging from mandatory counselling to dismissal. Netherway was expected to testify today. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:14:55 -0600 From: "Kali J." Subject: IMPORTANT - Search & Seizure #2 Sorry folks - I only posted the section with DAT's comments. Here is the complete list if you are interested, but without comments. You may want to print both, which is what I have done in my home. ******************************************************************** Summary Response Checklist if the Bureau comes Knocking: 1. Ask to see the search warrant. 2. Ask the person in possession of the warrant to identify himself and all of those with him and to indicate whether those persons are authorized to aid in the execution of the warrant. 3. Request time to review the warrant and to obtain advice with respect to the appropriate course of conduct. 4. Read the warrant carefully to determine: the premises covered the specific documents or objects it covers the alleged offence(s) subject of the warrant 5. At the same time that the warrant is being reviewed, instruct someone to make the following calls (if not already made): legal counsel individuals named in the warrant whose offices are to be searched - each should be advised that the search is pending and cautioned that they must not remove, alter or destroy any documents or other material in their offices head/foreign offices 6. Do not "agree" that the search can be expanded beyond the limits described in the warrant. 7. Do not answer any substantive questions. 8. Do not attempt to impede, physically or otherwise, the person executing the warrant. 9. If any documents exist in respect of which solicitor-client privilege may exist, identify the documents and their location and indicate to the search officer that the documents are subject to solicitor-client privilege and that you require that the appropriate procedures be followed to protect the privilege. 10. Keep an accurate log (or copy) of all documents seized. \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/\/\/\/ It seems to me that the Supreme Court has been taking the police to task in a couple of recent cases over what is and isn't a reasonable search. There was the R. v. Feeney case where the judges ruled that a warrant was needed to search a residence even in pursuit of a murder suspect. And yesterday the B.C. Court of Appeal overturned a conviction on child pornography charges against Richard West. "Police, using information supplied by a CBC television camera crew doing a story on child pornography, executed the search warrant in the city's [Vancouver's] West End. "The appeal court also said police never should have invited a TV cameraman in when they searched West's apartment." - Winnipeg Free Press, Dec. 11, 1997 The case may be retried, but without any of the evidence obtained in the search. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:56:05 -0600 From: "DAVID L. WORFOLK" Subject: Re: Serial Numbers re SERIAL NUMBER PROBLEM what does a collector do that has a collection of several COOEYS of various manufactures and dates all with no serial #'s on any of them? Dave W. MEMBER NFA,HACS,BCWL,&RFOC. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:56:02 -0600 From: "Kali J." Subject: Re: S & S list I understand the links I left in the article are dead now. Sorry - none of us are perfect! It is the article itself that's IMPORTANT. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:56:09 -0600 From: Jim Davies Subject: Dual justice On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: > > One for the police, and one for the public. The news today talked of a > 22 year old RCMP rookie who, while drunk at a party, pulled his service > revolver on 4 people who had taken his car keys so he couldn't drive. > First, why did he have a firearm at this party, and second, you could > bet that if this was you or I, there would be criminal charges > involved. This officer has been given 2 weeks to quit. > > Anyone have any more details than this??? > The reports I read said that he was prohibited from carrying a firearm for 4 [I think] years EXCEPT WHILE ON DUTY. [snicker snicker] This does not sound like he has been given 2 weeks to quit. Of course, maybe a job awaits him doing VIP protection work in Ottawa. He may be fully qualified in the use of art objects as blunt instruments, for instance. -------------------------------- > > Simon says, "Ottawa's motto seems to be, 'Drive them underground so we don't > have to handle the paper any more!'" > I think in this case Simon may be mistakenly assuming that there is a link between logic and reality in the federal government. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:56:12 -0600 From: "David J. Wiebe" Subject: re: Saskatchewan Area Firearms Officer competition From: Terry Warner >It seems some applicants may have been screened out for criteria not >disclosed on the poster. Mine for example was turned off because I >lacked investigative interviewing experience, even though I think I met >each criteria in the ad. (I applied for a lot of reasons, folks - >please don't beat me up.) Who would complain about having friends on the inside? ;-) Besides, I don't see how you can be an active member of the firearms community without having "investigative interviewing experience." You have to employ that skill just to get answers from Just-ass, CFC and the most of the CPFO's.... David J. Wiebe DJWiebe@msn.com DavidJW@istar.ca Director of the Pacific Shooters Association, Member of The National Firearms Association, the Reform Party of Canada, the Responsible Firearms Owners Coalition of BC and the BC Wildlife Federation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:06:01 -0600 From: Bruce.Beswick Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #484 When I first read this I thought it was a joke post - having read it a few times, I have a comment or two to make. > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:39:53 -0600 > From: Red.Green (rgreen@parl.gc.ca) > Subject: Verifiers > > Red wrote: the e-mail address is from parl.gc.ca - in other words Ottawa. So, Red is one of those mindless sheep - willing to get involved in this scheme!?!? > > > > > Apparently there are three classes of verifiers. Volunteers like > myself, business verifiers and those emloyed by the CFO's and police. As long as God is my witness, my wife is my mate, my children are my heritage and my rifle shoots straight, I will never understand how people like Red could even seem to be proud of becoming a volunteer verifier. As a volunteer, I would suspect, no, I know Red will never be welcomed into my home for a "verification", or even a coffee. In fact, I would be ashamed to be his father or mother. If I were to suspect that a local business was to become involved as a verifier - I know I would NEVER deal there. I will actively promote this boycott to everyone - So will all of my friends (this has been discussed many times, both at meetings and at various coffee tables). > The business verifiers are people working in gun shops who can verify > guns on the spot. I wonder how long they will be in business? Not long I suspect! Good. The decent, hardworking and hungry gunsmith will have increased business and a better income. > Maybe you should volunteer Baldy. Seems to me that "Baldy" Randy Sinclair should make a point of meeting Red. Perhaps he could discuss this publicly attempted "volunteering" in private. A friend of mine from Australia recently contacted me and told me of some "sheepified" bureaucrats he was dealing with. If you knew the intelligence level of sheep as well as my buddy, you would realize the truth in that insult. Anyone involved in the verification program - either as a volunteer or as a mercenary certainly has been sheepified! In another article in Digest #484 there was a copy of the Ottawa Citizen report concerning costs of registration in Alberta. The Alberta RCMP spokesman, Keith Serry stated there were six employees, and another 23 to be hired in Alberta. He stated it would not cost the RCMP anything in Alberta, as costs were to be covered by a "federal operational fund". I hope that fund is substantial - don't forget it is YOU taxpayers that will provide the money - 29 employees at an average of 30K per year means $870,000.00 in wages per year. In Alberta alone! I believe ALL RCMP offices in Alberta are owned by the Province - That means the registration must be moved to separate lodgings - be sure to ask your Alberta MLA when the registrations folks will be moving out of their present offices and into federal lodgings - in fact, you should insist upon this - it is a federal matter, not a Provincial matter! So, rents, leases, maintenance, power, water, sewer, phone, benefits, etc should add up to at least an additional $12 - $15,000 per office site. At 10 offices in the Province of Alberta, that is at least an additional $150,000.00. I am sure there will be more than 10 offices. And, I am sure my cost estimates are low! Then comes the computers, the office equipment, the furniture, etc. The sky's the limit. The total bill will be in the millions - and this is will happen without even blinking an eye. This is only in Alberta - multiply this by all the other Provinces that will operate in this manner. So, don't let the bastards lie to you and say it costs NOTHING! But, make sure they have to pay - yeah, it comes out of our pocket, but someday justice may truly prevail! I wonder where they will hide these additional costs in an attempt to keep the registration bill at the $85 million that (C)Rock promised? Don't be sheepified - make the bureaucrats do their job, never make their lives easy! Bruce Beswick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:06:04 -0600 From: acardin Subject: Re: Gun control on the West Coast. too slow- it has been removed!!! H. Roy Stephens wrote: > For the runaway success of federal gun control look at this front page > article > from the Vancouver Province. > > http://www.vancouverprovince.com/newsite/news/1844185.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:06:08 -0600 From: robert.pogson@mwcs.mb.ca (ROBERT POGSON) Subject: Cassels is Homesick On front page of the Winnipeg Free Press today: Our favourite (gun-hating) police chief is quitting in the middle of his 5 year contract, citing homesickness. Perhaps the folks in Alberta should expect the return of their prodigal son. No word on whether he has seen the folly of C-68 yet, but the politicking to find an "in house" replacement has already begun. Some may not remember David Cassels helped promote C-68 complete with photo-ops with Wendy Cukier and numerous thoughtful blurbs in the local media... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:06:10 -0600 From: lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #483 -Reply At 05:02 AM 7/10/98 -0600, you wrote: >Al, re/ carry permits in BC. As club membership chairman, >I get a wad of blank C-203's which I pass to any paid up >member whom requests one. That is the only thing I have >be sure of. Current paid membership. Everything else is >the registrar's problem. I have to keep 5 years of record >of use, or sign in books. In case the registrar wants to verify >use. That's it. everything else is private info! > Tim/BC To what purpose of public safety and crime prevention is keeping "5 years of record of use, or sign in books"? Jerrold lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Peace River, Alberta, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:06:14 -0600 From: "Warner, Patrick" Subject: Re: Something to think about (leaked information...) > Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:57:43 -0600 > From: "Barry Glasgow" > Subject: Something to think about > > Dave's remarks on the "leaked" CFC manual got me to thinking. > With advances in technology, it's not hard to see that whole > databases can find their way onto CD ROM's and that it only > takes one culprit to generate a CD with all the information > related to every one of Canada's gun owners. > > It could be argued that this would be a rare event that could be > dealt with as it happens but think about this for a second; > Naw.... it is not so much that leaked information is a rare event. It is rare that leaks are done with criminal intent. Most are just plain accidents or the (un?)intended consequence of leaving a document laying around where prying eyes might see it, or an overheard cellular phone call... all things which have happened and continue to happen with distressing (for the government) regularity... However, the criminal intent is another matter entirely. I recall a not-so-recent case where a Revenue Canada auditor sold superceded microfiche (hence scrap which should be destroyed by approved means....) of records of taxpayers who fit into a particular demographic, to a private sector company intent on targeting this demographic (sorry about the lack of specificity but this was perhaps a half dozen or more years ago somewhere around Toronto if my fading memory holds... It might even have been sold to a company offering loans to taxpayers with overdue accounts or some such thing... The details are not important... the event is!) Hundreds (maybe even thousands) of confidential tax records found their way into the hands of a business opportunist through the efforts of an unscrupulous tax auditor. I recall the tax man got a free stay at a federal facility for bad boys... > ... once that information is out, it's out. It can be copied > and passed around the criminal community ad infinitum and gun > owners can prepare themselves for a rise in thefts and/or > home invasions. And when federal regulations succeed in driving > firearms dealers out of business, this problem will of course be > exacerbated. > It might even happen that antigun bureaucrats could leak this info > on purpose as a means of directing grief against gun owners. > > All of this can happen as the result of one single leak from > the CFR. > > Don't think it can happen ? > > Ask Paul Mullins (ex-Toronto registrar). > > Barry Glasgow > Woodlawn, Ont. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:06:17 -0600 From: "David J. Wiebe" Subject: Pepper spray??!! "H. Roy Stephens" wrote: As someone who has been whining about disarmed private security for eons now, I am going to whine some more about that article. >For the runaway success of federal gun control look at this front page >article from the Vancouver Province. Quoted from the article "Neighbors distraught over barbecue killing Man in custody after partygoer, guard shot dead" on July 10, 1998: Davies, a laborer, and security guard Greg Bauland, 29, who worked for Mike's Watchman Service of Coquitlam, were killed by a man armed with an assault rifle "Vancouver is terrible. The east side is out of control," said McIvor. "If [Bauland] had had pepper spray last night, maybe he would have been able to do something." Pepper spray vs an "assault rifle." I like the odds. Has everybody gone completely nuts? David J. Wiebe DJWiebe@msn.com DavidJW@istar.ca Director of the Pacific Shooters Association, Member of The National Firearms Association, the Reform Party of Canada, the Responsible Firearms Owners Coalition of BC and the BC Wildlife Federation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:08:00 -0600 From: Bob Lickacz Subject: WINNEPEG POLICE CHIEF QUITS Winnepeg Chief of Police, Dave Cassels, has apparently resigned as of October 1, half way through his term. You may remember our dear friend Cassels, testified before the Justice Committee as to the benefits of mandatory long gun registration. Mr. Cassels, when employed as Deputy Chief in Edmonton, threatened members of the Edmonton Police Service with insubordination charges if they spoke out in public against Bill C-68. Cassels was accused by his subordinates of manipulating Winnepeg crime statistics some time ago apparently for his own benefit. In an related matter, Winnepeg janitorial supply houses have reported a shortage of floor wax. It seems that existing supplies were purchased by rank and file police officers who were doing Happy Dances!! Our thanks to "Deep Blue" for suggesting alternate career choices for Mr. Cassels. Bob Lickacz NFA Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:28:24 -0600 From: "John C. Downward" Subject: Re: IMPORTANT - Search & Seizure item July 10,1998 I was unable to load your web site message. My browser said there was an error and couldn't load it. I am using Internet Explorer 3.02 At 09:08 AM 7/10/98 -0600, you wrote: >For anyone asking - DAT must be busy, and I couldn't find this on the >NFA Web site, so I'm posting my copy, I hope with DAT's approval. I >believe this is could be very important information for future use. >PRINT it, discuss it with your family, and post it inside a cupboard >or someplace where your family knows about. Add your own important >phone numbers. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:28:33 -0600 From: "Kali J." Subject: Re: Prohibition Hearing "Kali wrote: We have been there! You two have no idea what you're saying! We broke no laws, no charges were ever laid! Our ordeal started almost 5 years ago...." "ANON wrote: Welcome to the club. It seems like some of these pinheads get a vendetta against certain individuals and try to pursue it until you're broke and can't fight them any more." WAKE UP FOLKS, AND WAKE UP YOUR NEIGHBOURS! This is not just a case of them pursuing individuals until they're broke and can't fight them anymore. Sadly, a lot of individuals faced with this, WILL NOT EVEN BE ABLE TO "BEGIN" THE FIGHT!!! OR - they will try to fight, but if they don't know where to turn, THEY WILL LOSE - "WHICH CAN BE EVEN WORSE". As you should all be aware of, Canadian Law (except Quebec of course) is based on "case law". This means if they only have cases on the books that are NOT succeeding for the people, then the judges will rule accordingly. WHY DO YOU THINK THE NFA IS TRYING TO HELP SO MANY, AND SHARING THOSE CASES THAT ARE SUCCESSFUL??? We need those cases on the books so they can be used by judges for others to come. The NFA really deserves to be applauded for this by all of us. (That's one reason money contributed to their defense fund is so important - we need to win those cases.) Kali P.S.: Thanks for the support of so many who replied to my posting directly. It is very much appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:04:42 -0600 From: "H. Roy Stephens" Subject: Re: Prohibition Hearing. H. Roy Stephens wrote: "Dale: This is better than daytime television! I hope that you are keeping a detailed diary, this should be a major article in a news magazine when it's all over." Acardin wrote: "And all Canadian Content!!! The CBC should be overjoyed!" NOT!!!! We have been there! You two have no idea what you're saying! We broke no laws, no charges were ever laid! Our ordeal started almost 5 years ago and is still not finished.......... Kali, I believe that with your response you made my point. This is a waste of time. This is a waste of resources. This is absurd in the extreme. But this is not well known to the population at large, and I think it should be, hence my reference to an article in a news magazine ie. Saturday Night. Further, I would suggest that if you have not already done so, you take it to both your MP and MLA and hammer it home. Good luck. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:04:40 -0600 From: "H. Roy Stephens" Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #485 Re: Search Warrants (And, some advice on what to do when the police show up at your door.) From: - - ---------------------------------------------------------- The file was not found on this server. Does someone have the correct URL? ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #486 **********************************