From - Mon Jul 13 21:56:59 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29836; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:42:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26789; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:26:48 -0600 Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:26:48 -0600 Message-Id: <199807111326.HAA26789@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #487 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: RO X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, July 11 1998 Volume 02 : Number 487 In this issue: SCOTT HOWARTH Summer Reading List Re: Serial Numbers Re: Search and Seizure article Re: SCOTT HOWARTH ANGUS REID - G&M POLL Cassels "One Lousy Loonie" Campaign Status Report #5 Apology to Dave Tomlinson Re: SCOTT HOWARTH Re: ANGUS REID - G&M POLL Re: Pepper Spray Re: NEW C-68 IMPORT AND EXPORT RULES Re: Serial Numbers FIREARMS IN YOUR WILL OR ESTATE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:04:55 -0600 From: Bob Lickacz Subject: SCOTT HOWARTH WHAT A JOKE!!! We need to campaign to get this man exonerated. Can anyone supply the Digest with the phone numbers, FAX numbers, and e-mail addresses for the Premier and Attourney General of Ontario. This man needs our help and an appeal right now. I suppose the little bastards who broke into his neighbours garage are getting post traumatic shock counselling. Too bad they didn't live here in Alberta. Justice is applied a little more evenly here. Bob Lickacz NFA Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:05:15 -0600 From: NFA Calgary Subject: Summer Reading List Here are a few books that we have in stock in the NFA Administration Office that might make a nice addition to your summer reading list; More Guns, Less Crime by John R. Lott This book is an excellent read, filled with facts, graphs and charts proving that "More Guns, Equal Less Crime. $C35.00 (Shipped) Reasonable & Neccesary by David W. Young Defensive Firearms Ownership and use in Canada. $C20.00 (plus $3.00 Shipping & handling) Observations on a One way Street The Canadian Firearms Control Debate 155 pages of facts! $C5.00 If you would like an Adobe Acrobat copy of our "NFA Item for Sale Sheet" or our NEW BROCHURE: "Support Those Who Support Us". Please ask! We can e-mail this information to you. Order of Books or other Merchandise by Visa or Mastercard can be placed by calling (403) 640-1110 or by sending a cheque or money order to NFA Administration Box 4384, Station C Calgary T2T 5N2 Keep in touch! Jim Hinter Administrative Assistance NFA Calgary ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:04:49 -0600 From: DONGRES Subject: Re: Serial Numbers DAVID L. WORFOLK wrote: > re SERIAL NUMBER PROBLEM what does a collector do that has a collection > of several COOEYS of various manufactures and dates all with no serial > #'s on any of them? > Dave W. MEMBER NFA,HACS,BCWL,&RFOC. ******************** I can trade you for something with serial numbers. I have cameras, F150, and more to trade. I have FAC. Saipan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:46:42 -0600 From: "Larry Going" Subject: Re: Search and Seizure article >From: "H. Roy Stephens" >Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #485 > >Re: Search Warrants (And, some advice on what to do when the police >show up at your door.) >From: > >The file was not found on this server. Does someone have the correct URL? This file is now on the NFA Web Site. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:46:46 -0600 From: "Kali J." Subject: Re: SCOTT HOWARTH Bob: Excellent idea! Can I suggest to EVERYONE that they prepare their e-mail and use the BULK E-MAILER that you can link to via the FED UP II web site? You do ONE e-mail, and you can send it to your provincial reps, specific parties, or the good one - ALL PARLIAMENT E-MAIL ADDRESSES! Tip of the day! (from Kali) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:46:49 -0600 From: "Kali J." Subject: ANGUS REID - G&M POLL F.Y.I.: Per Bourque News: A new poll suggest that 58% of Canadians want Prime Minister Jean Chretien to retire before the next election. Just 38% want him to hang on for a 3rd election. Among Liberal supporters, 51% want him to stay, while 46% want to kiss him goodbye. (see Bourque News at: http://www.bourque.org -- if you are searching on this site, some items have URL's that are no longer active.) Kali ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:47:28 -0600 From: Jon & Eileen Taylor Subject: Cassels For all you poor Alberta gun-owners. Who would like to lay odds that Cassels is not moving back to alberta to take over the top spot on the Federal Gun-Grab (otherwise known as C68) It seems to me that this has been a well orchestrated career change for which he has been campaigning for many years. The Feds will certainly have been impressed with his rabid ravings over the years and are not likely to pass up this chance to piss on your parade. I hope i'm wrong but I have a sick feeling down deep in my gut Jon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:47:34 -0600 From: Mark Hughes Subject: "One Lousy Loonie" Campaign Status Report #5 Well, it has been a week on the Loonie Trail and what I though was a campaign slowing down ended up gaining! Day off and on the loonie trail got good results picking up staglers. Circled round once again too and got several more NON-Firearms enthusiasts to donate, even one person who "has no use for guns" but doesn't agree with the provisions of the Law! WE ARE GETTING THROUGH TO THE MASSES PEOPLE! Only two individuals so far have refused giving, one a gun owner, the other a non-gunowner. The rest were very receptive and gave. One fellow gave twice himself and once on behalf of his mother (ex-cadet officer and very much a fire- arms enthusiast). When I approached one group of individuals today about the Campaign, i was told, "We were looking for you!", "Just the guy we want to see!" They are looking for someone to lead their anger against this Law! One person stated, "You hear allot of people shooting off about this Law, but no one seems to be doing anything, no one tells us what to do to fight it". They were ready to give and give generously! As I said, YOU have to go out and ASK, they WANT to GIVE! But they know not where! Go out and get those firearms owners in your area...they are hungry for leadership and direction! Posters are still being requested, you can get yours by eMailing myself, or if you wish, go to one of the following Websites; Fred Davis' Page; http://infoweb.magi.com/~freddo/guns.html Robert Schultz's page; http://www.wwwdi.com/fishgame.html And last but not least, the NFA Webpage; http://www.nfa.ca/ If you wish to make a direct contribution to the "One Lousy Loonie Campaign" via credit card call; 1-(403)-640-1110, NFA Calgary Office. State you wish to make a contribution to the "One Lousy Loonie Campaign" for the Legal Defence Funds. Or if you wish send Check or Money Order to; National Firearms Association BOX 4384, Station C, Calgary, Alberta, T2T 5N3 PLEASE NOTE COLLECTORS: Please send your collected Loonies to this address via Money Order, clearly marked Legal Defence Funds via Lousy Loonie Campaign. Thank you. In addition to the Lousy Loonie Campaign, I've gone into phase 2, collecting names for the Petition to Repeal C-68, and in one half hour got enough signatures to fill one and a half petitions, and I'm just beginning. Jim Hinter has sent me info needed for phase 3, a membership drive (thanks Jim) and included in this I hoped to include a point system explanation of the law. Does anyone have a listing such as this they could eMail Me or make up one? It should print on a single piece of standard size paper. Phase 5 will be continued "political agitation" to keep these gentlemen informed. The government has no idea what there up against here! WE are just starting to fight! The Firearms Owners are madder than ever, more determined than ever, know more than ever (thanks to the media beginning to report the facts), and no one is going to register squat! I hope collectors will be sending me in progress reports! Let's keep the feedback going! Thanks! Keep going people, we are getting there! Remember; GO GET THOSE LOONIES! 7 MILLION is the Goal! The NFA LEGAL DEFENCE FUNDS is the Prize! One in which we will ALL benefit! Mark Hughes "One Lousy Loonie" Campaign Driver (for the,) NFA LEGAL DEFENCE FUNDS, NFA Field Officer Reform Party of Canada PS: Support the FED UP II Rally! An Important "Show of Solidarity" for the entire Firearms Community! Let's SHOW the FEDS we're not giving In and NOT giving UP! WE ARE FIGHTING TO THE LAST OUNCE OF OUR BEING! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:47:30 -0600 From: Mark Hughes Subject: Apology to Dave Tomlinson Dear Dave, With regards to the "Re:Shooting Back" Thread, in which I responded to your post; it would appear that you could take my poor wording as an insult to your person and as an attack on you personally. THIS NOT SO! I apologize if anything I wrote may have offended you, it was not my intent, or goal. I have approached our local Used Books Store and requested "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", but need an author, ISBN No. and publisher, if possible. He catalogs his books and can enter requests. I remain your loyal ally in the fight, Mark Hughes ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:57:11 -0600 From: DONGRES Subject: Re: SCOTT HOWARTH Bob Lickacz wrote: > WHAT A JOKE!!! > > We need to campaign to get this man exonerated. Can anyone supply the Digest > with the phone numbers, FAX numbers, and e-mail addresses for the Premier > and Attourney General of Ontario. This man needs our help and an appeal > right now. I suppose the little bastards who broke into his neighbours > garage are getting post traumatic shock counselling. Too bad they didn't > live here in Alberta. Justice is applied a little more evenly here. > > Bob Lickacz > > NFA Edmonton The trend started long ago. People are fed up with criminals getting bolder. It's not just Goetz or the Mexicans who recently decided to publicly hang the criminals, (without police). The more judges will protect criminals and give the public a hard time instead, the sooner we'll see more people vote against the Liberals. To inform the voter that to vote for anybody else is not necessarily enough, it will be up to us now. Saipan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:57:14 -0600 From: DONGRES Subject: Re: ANGUS REID - G&M POLL David J. Wiebe wrote: > >A new poll suggest that 58% of Canadians want Prime Minister Jean > >Chretien to retire before the next election. Just 38% want him to > >hang on for a 3rd election. Among Liberal supporters, 51% want him > to > >stay, while 46% want to kiss him goodbye. > > Good news, Angus Reid is deciding who the next government will be! > > We still have to watch out for the Conservative come back. Not all > ex-lieberals are going to vote Reform... > > David J. Wiebe DJWiebe@msn.com DavidJW@istar.ca ************************ Angus Reid is in Toronto I presume as are all the other polls. Last election the vote among gunowners was split here in NW Ontario, between Reform,PC and NDP, few even voted Liberals (smoking some wild weeds I guess) I almost got hernia trying to explain something so simple that unless you vote Reform we are wasting time, energy and our money. So if that attitude stays then Toronto and the South will again decide who will be the next government. Actually CBC will decide (which include all the polls)Isn't it against constitution to be forced to pay for a propaganda (CBC)which is against my own interest? This seems to me the same as paying union dues that goes to NDP which in turn goes to support of C-68. We pay LOT of "lousy loonies" that work against us. There has to be a way to avoid that. I pay for a lot of "cultural" BS I'll never use unless I go to Toronto. Taxes in the wilderness are the same as in Toronto or Montreal etc. What this all have to do with guns? Well, if I didn't have to pay for all that waste I could buy another gun, another press, powder ..........we need to spend more on National Defence! Yeah. I think defence budget should include more reloading supplies, just a tiny insignificant fraction of government waste and we all have new Dillon 500 or better, with few toys thrown in.... :-} Seriously, if all gunowners voted Reform (7,000,000 votes) we don't have to worry about C-68 no more, among other wastes of money. That is really ALL we have to do! Even Canadian Dollar would go up, guarantee! Saipan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:57:17 -0600 From: "H. Roy Stephens" Subject: Re: Pepper Spray From: "David J. Wiebe" Subject: Pepper spray??!! "H. Roy Stephens" wrote: As someone who has been whining about disarmed private security for eons now, I am going to whine some more about that article. >For the runaway success of federal gun control look at this front page >article from the Vancouver Province. For a moment I thought I was hallucinating. The article Dave saw was the next day's, not the one I was sarcastically referring to which showed photos of a supposedly operational (& loaded) Browning .50 cal machine gun and several other supposedly fully automatic rifles captured from the local criminal element. It would appear that these are readily available here in B.C. for those so inclined. Unfortunately the Province Newspaper doesn't yet have their archives online. They are working on it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:26:37 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: NEW C-68 IMPORT AND EXPORT RULES >>According to my "plain brown envelope" copy of the overheads used by the CFC >>for training Customs offices as to the new procedures that will come in with >>C-68, the changes are going to be pretty severe. >yes we are in for some interesting times, for example, starting in the VERY NEAR FUTURE if you, as a private citizen or as a dealer, order one single firearm part say $5. grip screw bushing for your Colt 1911a1 >First you will have to file for an import permit in Ottawa, this can take 2-4 weeks as you know, this will cost you $15. when the goods enter Canada. >Once you receive this permit you will send it with your order to the US dealer, he in turn must then send a copy of your permit with his application for an export permit to the US State Department, another 2-6 week wait. >Although there is no charge for the US dealer to obtain the export permit do you really think they will be willing to complete 20-30 minutes of paperwork for small orders ? Not likely. >These regulations have been drafted and are about to go into force in the United States. >Another example of Clinton's desire to curb the trade in nastey weapons >and their components. >In addition to this our fearless leaders in Ottawa are currently preparing new regulations which will require ALL importers to obtain import permits for anything that has any firearms related use, such as slings, bipods, mounts, etc, etc.... Remember ALL these permits cost money.... >>For example, commercial >>>"Importations will only be allowed at Designated Customs Offices." >>>"Exportations will only be allowed at Designated Customs Offices, this >>includes all in-bond exportation." >>From what I'm told this should happen before the new year. >>"All importations [and exportations] will require an Authorization to Import >>or Export], which is issued by the Registrar [from Ottawa, apparently]" >>that is already the case, but as I mentioned above it will be expanded to cover anything remotely related to firearms.... >>"Each importation [and exportation] SHALL be identified by marking, in the >>prescribed bar code, on the OUTER packaging of the goods." >>NFA COMMENT: That was tried once before, using ordinary lettering. The >>result was about an 80 per cent loss rate for firearms shipped with the >>required markings. Here, the government is assuming that no criminal has, >>or can get, access to, a bar code reader. Naive, aren't they? >Dave, I'm shocked that you would suggest that Canada Post and other higly professional companies would employ people of dubious character ?? >>"Movement in-bond is limited to a warehouse licensed under the Customs Act AND the Firearms Act." >>NFA COMMENT: If that means what it says, you can move it from one end of >the warehouse to the other end -- internally -- but never take it out the >door. It is probably just another example of the poor English of Ottawa. >Have a look at the regulations for a Bonded Warehouse, I doubt that very many dealers in Canada would be able to afford it, or is that the idea ?? >>"All firearms [being imported OR exported] WILL be recorded in the Canadian >>Firearms Registration system (CFRS)." >>NFA COMMENT: This system proudly boasts that it will have a "direct link to >>[the] firearms registration system." The Customs computers are obsolete >>antiques, and have very poor security systems. Hackers are going to love >>this -- access to the firearms registration system by breaking into the >>easily-penetrated Customs computer systems! >>The comments of the Customs Officer who sent this plain brown envelope are >>unprintable in a Digest that may be read by the whole family, but he is >>apparently convinced that the CFC plans are utterly unworkable. >>Gee how could something so well conceived as Bill C-68 be un-workable ?? >By the way, did you know that Canada Customs and Revenue Canada are officialy merging into one operation ?? Although they have been working "under the table" for years they will now do it all "above board">Remember Canada Customs can access your phone records, income records, credit cards records, medical records, bank records, etc, etc, ALL without a warrant. >By the way Dave, did you get a copy of the latest rate sheet from FRAS in Ottawa, even the Canadian Legions and various units museums will now have to pay a yearly license fee, how about that ?? The very people who were prepared to put their lives on the line for our country in several wars and peace keeping operations can longer be trusted with regimental souvenirs unless they come up with the bucks, nice touch Ottawa. >Best regards ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:26:42 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Serial Numbers >re SERIAL NUMBER PROBLEM what does a collector do that has a collection >of several COOEYS of various manufactures and dates all with no serial >#'s on any of them? Each firearm registered will be assigned a long "unique" Firearms Identification Number [FIN]. If there are suspected difficulties in uniquely identifying the firearm with the serial number, the Registrar will send you a "sticky" bearing the FIN to stick to the "frame or receiver" of your firearm. The NFA is waiting for someone to tell us -- expected within days of the first appearance of the "sticky" -- which of the substances used to clean, lubricate and preserve firearms will dissolve either the glue of the "sticky" or the printing on it -- or both. It will be interesting to see how well the "sticky" adheres to teflon, plastic, steel, aluminum, pot metal, chromium, nickel, and all the OTHER materials that a "frame or receiver" made be made from. Even more interesting is the problem of where to PUT the "sticky" on a registered muzzle-loader that has NO "frame or receiver." There are "problems" with the serial numbers of all military-issue firearms and therefore with all sporters that used to be military firearms, and with most civilian-manufactured firearms. Complete records of all serial numbers ever used by companies are rarely complete -- the company often lists only the serial numbers of firearms that were NOT made for special export orders, for example. Some, like Remington, simply refuse to give out serial number information unless forced to by police warrant for one specific number. Many commercially-sold lists of serial numbers with dates of production -- created for collectors -- contain serious errors. Dave Tomlinson, NFA Simon says, "It's never as easy as it looks to someone who knows nothing about the subject!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 06:23:58 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: FIREARMS IN YOUR WILL OR ESTATE PRINT, PHOTOCOPY, POST, DISTRIBUTE AND FILE> Myself and my wife are going to have our wills set-up through our lawyer, and I >want to know how we should handle the firearms. I have an FAC, as well as several >long guns, plus some registered (to myself) handguns. >What section of law should I tell my laywer to refer to so that if I died, and my >wife is the executor of my will, she could maintain control/ownership of my >property ? I am concerned that the gov't would try to take my firearms away from >her... Criminal Code section 97(4)(d) authorizes the executor of an estate to take possession of ANY firearm (including prohibited weapons or restricted weapons) UNTIL the executor "with reasonable despatch, lawfully disposes thereof or obtains a firearms acquistion certificate under which he could lawfully have acquired the firearm." C-68's Criminal Code section 92(4)(b) is the same provision, and operates in the same manner. Include BOTH -- because you will need whichever is in force on the day the will becomes effective. >Can she aquire them without an FAC (as executor ?). Can the restricted ones be >registered to both of us ? I am not going to register the non-restricted stuff >until the last possible moment (hopefully never ! if C-68 is ditched). Yes, she can acquire without an FAC or C-68 licence if she is the executor. Dual registration is currently legal, but C-68 makes it impossible -- without invalidating the dual registrations already in force -- so get it NOW. You may encounter resistance -- so apply heavy pressure, with remarks about "What am I, through my tax money, paying you for, you obstructive jackass? You know as well as I do that what I am asking for is LEGAL -- now get off your butt and give me some SERVICE before I start action to have you FIRED!" >If something happened to both of us, can I will some of them to the NFA as a >donation ? Certainly. They then go into the hands of the executor, until a legal transfer can be arranged. >Thanks in advance for your info. I really like your articles in Point Blank, and >find your comments to be very informative. (I just wish I could remember what you >said regarding wills, executors, and firearms !!) WORST CASE: If you own an illegal, unregistered full automatic machine gun, your executor can legally take possession of it, and legally take it to a gunsmith for alteration into a deactivated firearm WITHOUT getting a Permit to Transport or C-68 Authorization to Transport. (That is because it is LEGALLY in his/her possession, and because no such Permit/Authorization CAN legally be issued.) The executor must STAY with the firearm UNTIL it is deactivated, because the gunsmith cannot legally take possession of it -- so it must REMAIN at all times, until deactivated, in the possession of the executor. Dave Tomlinson, NFA ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #487 **********************************