From - Mon Jul 20 20:56:34 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (majordomo@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13551; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:02:10 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14672; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:50:29 -0600 Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:50:29 -0600 Message-Id: <199807161650.KAA14672@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #496 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, July 16 1998 Volume 02 : Number 496 In this issue: Gun control from USA French Lousy Looni GST Collection Re: Assault Powder Horns Re: Canadian gun control dictated from the US Re: VERIFIERS PART II Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #495 FIRST FRT GLITCHES SHOWING UP Re: Delays for FAC? What's the Fed Up! rally about? FW: FW: Pepper Spray Re: Ways to Win Re: Radio talk shows.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 05:38:44 -0600 From: "Jean-Francois Avon" Subject: Gun control from USA On Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:41:41 -0600, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: >> It looks like Canada is just a testing ground to try out gun control >Wendy is taking her marching orders from Sarah Brady. the usual story. Only, they will find that Americaners are not as sheepy as Kanadians. In the meantime, we lost a few battles but not the war... Jean-Francois Avon, B.Sc. Physics, Montreal, Canada DePompadour, Société d'Importation Ltée Limoges fine porcelain and french crystal JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers Instrumentation & control, LabView programming ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 05:54:16 -0600 From: "Jean-Francois Avon" Subject: French Lousy Looni CAMPAGNE "UNE P'TITE PIASTRE" VOULEZ-VOUS SAUVER VOS ARMES =E0 FEU DES GRIFFES DES FANATIQUES ANTI-ARMES? LA NATIONAL FIREARMS ASSOCIATION A BESOIN DE VOTRE AIDE AFIN DE STOPPER LES FANATIQUES ANTI-ARMES-=E0-FEU D'OTTAWA ET DE CONDUIRE LA BATAILLE JURIDIQUE DEVANT LES TRIBUNAUX. "une petite piastre" pour aider sauver vos armes feu ? Le premier octrobre de cette anne, le gouvernementfederal Libral prvoit dbuter l'appliquation la loi C-68, la fesant le chapitre du Code Criminel du Canada. Cette loi autorisera les policiers: envahir votre rsidence sans ncessiter de mandat de perquisiton, simplement sur une base de soupcons que des armes feu ou simplement que des documen=ts relatifs des armes feu puissent y EAtre presents; saisir toute propriete, inspecter tous lieux et vous obliger assister les policiers dans leur recherches. Vous serez passible d'offense criminelle pour le simple fait de refuser de les assister, punissable par jusqu'e deux ans d'emprisonnement. De plus, la loi permettra au "governor in council" (ministre de la Justice) de bannir "quoi que ce soit" qu'il considerera comme non-ad=E9quat =E0 des fins sportives. Cette "loi" permet de crer de nouvelles lois et reglements concernant les armes feu sans que le ministre n'aie se presenter au Parlement pour approbation. CETTE LOI EXIGE DE VOUS d'obtenir et de d=E9tenir une license simplement pour pouvoir continuer conserver les armes dont vous Ates presentement proprietaire et vous obligera payer 25$ par arme feu que vous esirerez acquerir dans le futur. Si vous ne vous soumettez pase l'enregistrement de vos armes, CETTE LOI FERA DE VOUS, AUTOMATIQUEMENT, UN CRIMINEL (casier judiciaire ? ) passible d'un maximum de DIX ans d'emprisonnement et/ou d'une amende d'au plus 2000 dollars [Cc: s. 91(1) et 92(1)]. Le gouvernement prevoit aussi la confiscation sans compensation de plusieurs types d'armes courantes. Pour en savoir plus, contactez: NATIONAL FIREARMS ASSOCIATION Site web: http://nfa.ca/ C.P. 1779, EDMONTON AB T5J 2P1 TEL: (403) 640-1110 FAX: (403) 439-4091 E-mail: nfadat@telusplanet.net ou nfa_calgary@iname.com Si vous desirez, en tant qu'honn=EAte citoyen payeur de taxes , donner "une petite piastre" pour une bonne cause, veuillez contacter: Jean-Francois Avon, B.Sc. Physics, Montreal, Canada DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee Limoges fine porcelain and french crystal JFA Technologies, R&D physicists & engineers Instrumentation & control, LabView programming ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 05:54:19 -0600 From: "David BREWERTON" Subject: GST Collection >From: Rod Regier >Subject: re: Unpaid labour >I believe the feds permit GST/HST commercial collectors to keep a >small percentage of the "take" as compensation for being forced to >collect the tax and keep the requisite records. NO, there is no compensation from the federal government for any business owner doing the many hours of work collecting the GST for the Feds. We tried that when it came out, since most provinces (I'm blessed to be in Alberta where there is no Provincial Sales Tax) pay the business a percentage of the tax collected for doing the work. There was a small payment at the initial implementaion of the GST to start to cover some of the costs incurred with setting it all up (around $1000 max as I recall). Millions of business people continue to pay, in time or money or both, to administer the GST for the Federal Government. I estimate it doubled the time I have to spend doing accounting just because of the GST. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 06:41:50 -0600 From: Dave Kratky Subject: Re: Assault Powder Horns The Gayders wrote: > Scottish Home Affairs Minister Henry McLeish said new legislation was > necessary to plug the loophole and described Rankine's attempt to patent > his design as 'an outrageous abuse of current gun laws'. > He said he would raise the application with the Home Office. 'When we > banned handguns, we promised further legislation to strengthen the gun > laws. We now know that people are trying to substitute muzzle-loading guns > for banned handguns. We can't allow the gun lobby to undermine what's been > achieved.' Excuse me while I gag here... There, now that my throat is a little clearer... What a bunch of idiots.... I don't know who said it, but it's a great saying: "Extreme cases make extremely poor laws" - -- Dave Kratky o/o VAM Computers: (519) 940-3097 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:54:10 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Canadian gun control dictated from the US >> Efforts are now underway to identify, train and appoint "Approved >> Verifiers" at strategic locations throughout Canada. It is >> estimated that approximately 3,000 individuals will be needed to >> meet the requirements of establishing a National Verifiers Network. >> What will I receive as an approved verifier? >> Every shooting club with an approved verifier will receive free >> access to the RCMP's automated firearms encyclopedia, the Firearms >> Reference Table. The Firearms Reference Table (FRT) stores data >> and images of an anticipated 40,000 sporting and other firearms >The staggering number of 40,000 different firearms recognized by the >bureaucrats should already be a red flag -- unique and accurate >description of each of the 7 million firearms is a pipe dream. The FRT program calls up three pictures of the firearm, from three different angles, with arrows pointing at where it expects the markings to be. Most of the markings are on "uncontrolled spare parts" and NOT the "frame or receiver." They are therefore useless as "identification" information, because you have NO guarantee that they were attached to that "frame or receiver" ON THE DAY IT LEFT THE FACTORY. Many of the markings that ARE on the "frame or receiver" -- particularly on ex-military firearms -- are in code or so abbreviated that you will probably not be able to understand what they are trying to tell you. Do YOU know what "byf", "cyq", "ac", "42", "S/42" and "ar" mean when you find them stamped into the "frame or receiver" of an ex-German-military firearm? What "FTR" and "RFI" mean on a Lee Enfield rifle? Call up a Colt Model 1911 in .45 calibre on the FRT. How well does it resemble the full race pin gun that you are holding in your hand? The Clark long-slide? Or any other heavily modified Colt M1911/M1911A1, .38 Super, or Service Ace? Does the picture of a full-military Mauser K98k accurately "identify" the Mannlicher-stocked sporting carbine in your hands -- the one with the vital code marking UNDER THE FRONT SCOPE MOUNT? Are there pictues of every Model of the Cooey and the Tobin shotgun line, so accurate and detailed that PERFECT "identification" BY MODEL is even POSSIBLE? Remember -- unless the relationship between the firearm and the registration certificate is UNIQUE -- one-to-one, and ONLY one-to-one, the system has FAILED. >> The Registrar is currently in the >> process of confirming whether or not liability insurance is >> necessary for volunteer verifiers that will provide a free >> service to the community. Never mind the liability insurance -- important though that is. How about immunity from prosecution under the terms of Firearms Act sections 106 and 109 for making an honest mistake?? CAN the Registrar GUARANTEE that? NO. He has NO authority to override a local prosecutor! Dave Tomlinson, NFA Simon says, "You joined the verification program? SUCKER!" Verifier: "Nope, Simon. I have joined the verifier program, but I know that the only SAFE way to identify a firearm is 'UNKNOWN, UNKNOWN, UNKNOWN, UNKNOWN...' -- and that is JUST what my 'verifications' are going to show. Hey -- it's not MY fault that it is not POSSIBLE to UNIQUELY identify every firearm. Where I am in any doubt, I MUST put down that string of 'UNKNOWNs' -- TO PREVENT THE INCLUSION OF GARBAGE IN THE REGISTRATION SYSTEM." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:54:14 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: VERIFIERS PART II >> I would be grateful if you would complete the attached >> questionnaire and forward it before July 15, 1998.... >This is a joke, right? >Who, in their right mind would put the information asked for out >to someone that they can't see. If this type of information is >truely needed, I want to see some type of picture ID before I will >give it. No, it is not a joke. It is merely the arrogance, ignorance and incompetence of Ottawa -- they assume that everyone has profound reverence for their godlike status, and would not DREAM of questioning anything they do or request that we do. Dave Tomlinson, NFA Simon says, "Living in Ottawa has a tendency to addle the brain." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:54:17 -0600 From: Marstar Canada Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #495 >Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, July 16 1998 Volume 02 : Number 495 >From: Jim Davies < >Subject: the party inaction >On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: >> Folks, not only does FRAS have a problem,we have one... >> I had a privileged look at the CD program last spring. Believe me, it's >> not what they claim ...etc etc Well we had a look at this CD a while back, what a complicated un-friendly program.... If as a "verifier" one will be responsible for what is written in the report what does this person do if the CD says one thing and the existing registration or firearm another ?? If the verifier accepts the CD version and is later proven wrong is he/she liable ?? Or on the other hand the verifier "corrects" the records to reflect his/her observations does this constitute a false statement ?? >> "Lord, take pity on those who know not what they do!" >> Ain't that the truth !! John St. Amour Marstar Canada Fax: (613) 678-2359 marstar@hawk.igs.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:54:20 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: FIRST FRT GLITCHES SHOWING UP >What's up at the firearms registry the past few months? In early March >about 10 of our club's shooters purchased Anshutz .22 pistols. Still no >green slips, but everyone is getting phone calls from FRAS ranging from >accusations that these are sawed-off rifles to false descriptions >because no one there has been able to find descriptions of the the >firearm in their manual. Some were even told they would probably be >seized since there was no provision for bolt-action pistols. Apparently >the caller said these applications had made the rounds of everyone in >FRAS and that they could go no higher than him for verification. This syndrome can be expected to escalate quickly. Obviously, they have started using the FRT program "on CD ROM, and capable of identifying 40,000 firearms" to identify the oddballs -- and it is FAILING, just as the NFA predicted. Here, it is quite clear that the FRT has been oversold. "If it is not in the FRT, it does not exist!" >But the biggest laugh are some calls made to a chap waiting even longer >for a green slip on a previously registered XP-100 chambered for the >7mm IHMSA. Questions were ludricous, ....."why is this caliber not listed >in the book?", "what is the stock material?", what type of sights does >it have?", "XP-100 is not a model", and best of all, "what colour is >it?". The bottom line was that if they couldn't better identify it, it >couldn't be registered. The chap called replied to most questions with >"Look, you've had the application [and my firearm has been HELD] > so long, I can't even remember what it looks like!" >I had a privileged look at the CD program last spring. Believe me, it's >not what they claim ......virtually the content is equal to the back >pages of a Gun Digest! I fed the program a couple of tryouts on simple >guns manufactured 20 or 30 years back and it stumbled! I warned them that 40,000 firearms is a drop in the bucket, and that the program is not able to handle firearms altered by gunsmiths, way back when it was just an Ottawa pipe dream. Now we are SEEING it fail -- before WE even get a look at it. Dave Tomlinson, NFA Simon says, "Give the job to someone who is arrogant, ignorant and incompetent. Let him refuse to listen to or cooperate with the people out there in the field who KNOW the subject. Let him complete the job to his OWN satisfaction -- and THEN test it. That's Ottawa's method, and how can it POSSIBLY fail?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:54:24 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Delays for FAC? >I called the Surete du Quebec to renew my AAAF (FAC) and the woman there told >me that the system will not issue me with a new one before at least 28 days >from the receiving of the filled form. I asked her on a joyful tone if it >was because it was *by law* that they were doing than or simply because their >system was overcrowded, "of course, there are cuts and everybody is *soooo* >busy..." . She told me that the computer system won't issue anything before >28 days, "by law". I had her pronounce the words. >Is she lying, and if so, what could I put in her face? Or, should I go to >Ontario (Cornwall), which is at an hour drive from my place ? She is not lying, she is just confused. Call her back and tell her to READ the law, at Criminal Code section 106(1.2). which says, "106. (1.2) Notwithstanding subsection (1), where an applicant for an [FAC] HOLDS A VALID [FAC] AT THE TIME OF APPLYING FOR A NEW [FAC], (a) the firearms officer may issue the new [FAC] BEFORE THE TWENTY-EIGHT DAYS referred to in subsection (1) have elapsed." The 28-day waiting period is for a FIRST FAC, NOT for a renewal. Note, however, that to get your renewed FAC quickly, YOU MUST APPLY BEFORE YOUR OLD ONE EXPIRES. If you do not, not only does the 28-day waiting period apply -- you will have also have to pay $50 instead of $25. Dave Tomlinson, NFA Simon says, "Why does the CFC not put out Bulletins that deal with REAL problems, like this one?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:01:27 -0600 From: "Frederick Wm. Guse" Subject: What's the Fed Up! rally about? >Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:32:25 -0600 >From: "Marc Thibault" >Subject: What's the Fed Up! rally about? > >When someone wants to know what the rally is about, you need >a short answer - at any rate I need a short answer. > Marc; The short answer is to demand the repeal of the draconian C-68 that rides roughshod over the rights of Canadians that have been evolving through the Juris Prudence system since the Magna Carta. Rights like the right of freedom from search and seizure without warrant, and the right to private property! See you on September 22!! Regards Frederick Wm. Guse webauthor@fedupcanada.org http://www.fedupcanada.org/ ``Politicians on the make offer easy answers - try children as adults, censor the Internet, proclaim more gun control legislation - - without a shred of evidence to show how they would help.'' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:01:32 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: FW: FW: Pepper Spray > > > CHRISTINE WHITAKER. > > > Box 41, Edgeley, Saskatchewan. S0G 1L0. Ph: 306-699-2422.fax > > > 306-699-2926. > > > chrisw@sk.sympatico.ca > > > > > > July 15, 1998. > > > To. Hon. Anne McLellan, M.P. Minister of Justice. > > > > > > cc. Jim Hart, M.P. > > > Opposition Justice Critic. > > > > > > > > > Dear Ms. McLellan: > > > > > > I understand from media reports that you intend to prohibit > > > possession of pocket-sized pepper spray. > > > > > > I live on a Saskatchewan farm. Periodically, we have problems with > > > rabid skunks, raccoons and coyotes. Madam - have you any idea how > > > vicious these animals can be? When my husband and I take a walk or > > > a bicycle ride down our rural roads, we always carry a small > > > canister of pepper spray in case we should encounter such a > > > creature. There are also times when these unwanted visitors come > > > right into our yards. A couple of years ago, a neighbour, when > > > kneeling to weed her garden, was bitten on the heel by a skunk. > > > The resulting medical treatment was not pleasant. > > > > > > We are all fully aware that Bill C-68 is simply the forerunner of > > > a total ban on the civilian ownership of firearms. Now you intend > > > to ban pepper spray. Would you care to advise me how to deal with > > > dangerous predators? Should I hit them with a stick? Use a > > > kitchen knife (until you ban those too)? Or call the nearest RCMP > > > detachment, which is 20 miles away? > > > > > > I readily admit that I would ,if necessary, use my pepper spray on > > > a human predator. I would much prefer to be charged with violating > > > your rules, than to be raped or murdered. Last week, in Fort > > > Qu'Appelle (a neighbouring community), a 74-year old invalid was > > > assaulted in her own home. She avoided rape only by activating her > > > Life-line monitoring service and alerting a neighbour. She would > > > have been at the mercy of the intruder, had her friend been away > > > from home at the time. (Perhaps you should consider banning such > > > monitoring systems. After all, the 31-year old pervert was caught, > > > literally with his pants down, putting him at a distinct > > > disadvantage with the law, poor fellow.) > > > > > > You and your Liberal government make me angry. You seem to have > > > absolutely no understanding of the realities of life. Do you really > > > think that criminals will register their guns, or that rabid skunks > > > will go away if we shout at them? > > > > > > We would all be safer if you would direct your not inconsiderable > > > energies towards the effective control of criminals. Instead, you > > > fall over backwards to protect those who are the real threat to > > > society, in the meantime seeking innovative ways to harass law-abiding > > > citizens. > > > > > > I am heartily sick of the social engineering to which you and your > > > cabinet colleagues appear to be addicted. I wish that you would > > > just get out of my life, instead of doing your best to make me into > > > a criminal by the imposition of your foolish regulations. > > > > > > Yours sincerely, > > > > > > Christine Whitaker. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:50:22 -0600 From: Bill Subject: Re: Ways to Win David A Tomlinson wrote: > Nope. They can be beaten in two better and easier ways: > > 1. Use their own law against them by following it to the letter -- see my > "verification" postings. The "verifier" system is a grave danger to them. > > 2. Use the POLITICAL system to convince the politicians that the firearms > community can and will FIRE any politician who backs this mess -- either by > denying him or her the nomination to run from INSIDE the Party (the eaqsier > way, needing fewer people -- there are so FEW people who hold Party > memberships in ANY Party) or by voting against him or her for the > next-most-likely-to-win candidate. > > Dave... Dave, I do not think #2 part A, will work with the Liberal party as they have changed the party constitution so the "Top Hog" can refuse to accept any nomination he disagrees with and can hand pick his own candidate in any riding. The "Top Hog" did just that in the last election with 6 constituencies that I know of to "balance the number of women running under the party banner" and there is nothing to stop him from doing it in every constancy in Canada. Work at defeating the hogs at the polls. I know it takes more money and work but it is a better fix and will last longer. Just ask Kim Campbell. A second flaw I see in #2 is the tendency of elected Liberal Party members to toe the "Top Hog's" line after they are elected regardless of what their constancy thinks of it. Canadians witnessed this in both the C 68 and Hepatitis C votes. The Liberal backbenchers complained but voted the "Top Hog's" orders like the spineless wimps they are. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:50:27 -0600 From: Peter Kearns Subject: Re: Radio talk shows.... > > I got to talk on the radio tonight! A local talk show hosted by one > Lesley Primeau had a fellow named Roy something or other from 'THE > "CANADIAN FAMILY ACTION COALITION". Anyway, it and he sounded > impressive, expounding the coalitions views on same sex benefits and > generally telling everyone what they should think and how they should > act according to his "organization".... > > Believe it or not brethren, but some uncharitable souls claim that I > enjoy a little mischief making.... sometimes. So I called the show > and was "CALLER #1... The subject was so boring that not too many > people bothered I suppose. > So I asked Roy..... > "How many people belong to your coalition?"....... > "We forward literature to over 300 church groups" > "I didn't ask you who you wrote letters to, exactly how many people or > organizations actually support your group?"......... > "It varies depending on what issues we are fighting"...... > "Exactly how many members do you have"...... > Silence....... > "Maybe six hundred"..... > "I don't believe that, shouldn't you be making your pronouncements > using the term "I" and not the regal "we"....?" > Silence....... > "Lesley, if I call myself a coalition and make sweeping pronouncements > that would impact the lives of a million people, would you invite me > on the show?.... I promise to be amusing"....... > Giggling, (lots of it) even a snigger...... "Sure I would Peter"... > The rest of the show more or less fell apart, and Roy went home with > the odd bruise and verbal lump on his head... > > The above is not to demonstrate that poor Roy was a fake (which he > undoubtedly was) or to prove you can easily expose them. The reason I > did this was because on the same show about a year ago a similar > misguided individual with the name Wendy Cukier was grandly > prognosticating about her 18,000 members of her coalition..... Until I > asked "Wendy, how many people actually pay dues to the Coalition for > Gun Control, and are members? The 18,000 immediately became 6,000 > and poor Wendy wasn't taken too seriously after that.... > > Anyone with a fax machine or a computer can create their very own > pressure group. A local former Edmonton city councilor and self > professed environmentalist named Tooker Gomberg decided recently that > he would run for mayor of the city of Edmonton. The fact that he is a > complete jackass had escaped him at least, and he sent out a flood of > faxes over a two hour period from his "committee" announcing his > intentions to the news media. Tooker (apparently) miscalculated and > the continual faxes from his "committee" served to really annoy the > local news editors........ So they ran articles in the press, and > generally condemned him on the radio and TV..... Tooker may be a > jackass, but he sure knew which buttons to press to have his name > trumpeted in the media....... Hell, I may even volunteer to help him > get elected and off welfare........ Read and learn..... There is > always more than one way to skin a cat...... and the cat could be Anne > McLennan or Wendy Cukier..... > regards, > Peter > Simon says: The days of writing a snappy letter to your elected > representative are long gone. The Recreational Firearms Community has > run a very distant second to the paid hacks of various created > coalitions... But we learn, and we adapt.... The tide is turning..... > the media carries more about us than about them...... New ideas, new > methods, no apologies, no appeasement.....no surrender... ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #496 **********************************