From - Mon Jul 20 20:52:10 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (majordomo@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24829; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:27:56 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14511; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:10:53 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:10:53 -0600 Message-Id: <199807171910.NAA14511@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #498 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, July 17 1998 Volume 02 : Number 498 In this issue: FedUp Rally Book Review Stolen Firearms Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #494 Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #495 Re: Chretien's Pedal Mastication; Hilarious Wendy Statement Only the police and the military Re: FedUp Rally So only the police and military should have guns? politiians Re: New Computer Software for Police RE: politicians MUST READ! Re: Only the police and the military Re: Ways to Win Re: Permit To Carry Re: Only the police and the military Aussie gun clubs balloon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 05:37:25 -0600 From: "T.Bennett Finley" Subject: FedUp Rally O.K. I finally got around to it and sent my donation off today. How about everyone else? Much money is still needed. TBF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 05:37:54 -0600 From: BChow2or81@aol.com Subject: Book Review An E-mail aquaintance in the U.S. sent me the following, with permission to submit it for possible posting to the Digest. He is extremely knowledgeable about firearms and motor vehicles, so I was amazed when he also asked me to send it to NRA's "American Rifleman", as - would you believe? - he is not a member! Subj: An interesting book Date: 98/07/15 10:09:05 AM PDT A copy of Brassey's Essential Guide to Military Small Arms (D. Allsop, ISBN 1 85753-107-8) recently came my way, via Scholar's Bookshelf. The quality of printing and paper is surprisingly poor for an $80 book and the drawings are almost amateurish, but the content was outstanding. It might have been entitled, The Physics and Engineering of Small Arms. Overall, the book provides an excellent discussion of the physics and design priciples of small arms, at a technical level that is rarely, if ever seen outside of internal manufacturer's data and design monographs. The slant of the book is UK and Czech/Russian rather than USA, which may make it more interesting than otherwise for an American reader. About half of the book reflects the experiences of its many Czech authors, but it still gives a good treatment of design approaches used throughout the world. About a third of the pages are filled with equations and line graphs and plentiful. A knowledge of basic (differential and integral) calculus really is very useful, but the English text would still be very interesting to anyone who has forgotten, or never learned the math. Despite the level of math presentation, concepts are explained clearly. Where relevant, test data, mostly from UK, Czech, and Soviet sources are provided to illustrate the principles. Some of the sections do go into the history of firearms development, but even there, the emphasis is on physics and engineering. There is minimal mention of any firearm by name, nation, or manufacturer. Illustrations are very simple line drawings of graphs, charts, and mechanical mechanisms or configurations. The artistry of Zhuk's Encyclopedia is absent, as are the plentiful photos and "practical" info of Ezell's books. While lacking those pretty-appearance features, the book provides an excellent discussion of the design features and limitations that go into all modern, and most older small arms, and how the problems are solved by those who engineer them in the current decades. Overall, this book would appeal to anyone who found Feynman's Lectures on Physics to be enjoyable reading, or (from the text alone) anyone who wants to read about the basic physics and principles of firearms operation, even without mathematics and bringing to it only a basic understanding of the concepts of general physics such as momentum, energy, center of mass, etc.. p.s. [by the same reviewer] For the less technical reader, the book still is very useful... it has brief but good discussions on "practical" items, such as the effect of muzzle geometry on accuracy, the recoil that occurs WHILE the bullet still is in the barrel and how that influences accuracy, effect of the natural vibration frequency of the firearm on accuracy and use, etc., things many firearms users don't believe even take place or exist. - ------------------- ÿ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:24:22 -0600 From: Steve Grover Subject: Stolen Firearms A dealer customer of mine recently suffered a break in. A list of guns stolen follows. They also took hunting bows and scopes. If any of this turn up somewhere, please give me a call at 1-800-646-0665. Thanks, Steve Grover Browning BSS 12 Ga 01610pz158 Browning BPS 12 ga 41489np121 Browning Citori 12 ga 03576 Ithaca model 100 Skb 20ga s6113513 Ithaca Model 200E Skb 20 ga Detonic .45 Scoremaster CRM3242 Colt Gold Cup Mark IV .45 FN19046 Colt Trooper .357 J7768 Ruger Super Single Six .22 26243704 Beretta 950 .22 pistol D26986 Ruger Sp101 .22 pistol 57054867 Colt Woodsman .22 pistol Ruger Mark II Pistol 2444763 .177 cal Pellet Pistol (.357 mock up) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:00:04 -0600 From: Dave Kratky Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #494 > > outside the police and military. Officials admit there are problems with > > such a proposal, not the least of which is that such a law would make it > > illegal for citizens to defend themselves from repressive or genocidal > > national leaders. The Canadian officials say if such a convention were > > adopted, it would have to go hand-in-hand with a more activist United > > Nations and/or International Criminal Court to protect the public from > > rogue leaders. Sorta like we saved the Croatians from the Serbs by disarming them? No thanks. I'd rather have a gun in my hands than a piece of paper from the UN. The pen may be mightier than the sword, but I have noticed APC's seldom use paper or ink in their construction. - -- Dave Kratky o/o VAM Computers: (519) 940-3097 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:00:08 -0600 From: Dave Kratky Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #495 Marstar Canada wrote: > >> "Lord, take pity on those who know not what they do!" "Lord, forgive them, for they know not what they do." - -- Dave Kratky o/o VAM Computers: (519) 940-3097 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:00:11 -0600 From: Dave Kratky Subject: Re: Chretien's Pedal Mastication; Hilarious Wendy Statement Jean Hogue wrote: > 1. Chretien's Pedal Mastication > Yesterday evening, the Flag-Day Strangler responded to concerns over a > big drop of the dollar down to close to $US 0.67. Somehting like: this > is not bad news, it means those who were going on vacation to Maine will > now go to New Brunswick instead and that is good for the economy. Hah. I'm a computer dealer, and prices on parts I've already sold jumped by up to 20% yesterday. THANKS JEAN! When I suddenly make $0.00 on a dozen sales, you just KNOW it's not only good for the economy, hey! It's good for ME. Naturally, when prices go up, why would Cretch cry? More GST for 'im. - -- Dave Kratky o/o VAM Computers: (519) 940-3097 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:00:15 -0600 From: "Alfred.Hovdestad@usask.ca" Subject: Only the police and the military Only the police and the military should have guns, eh? http://www.canoe.ca/CalgaryNews/03_n1.html COMMANDO BUSTED ANTI-TERRORIST EXPERT CHARGED IN SHOOT-'EM-UP BRINK'S ROBBERY By PETER SMITH -- Calgary Sun A member of Canada's elite military commando anti-terrorist force has been charged with the Brink's heist at North Hill Mall when 80 shots and tear gas were fired. Military experts and defence politicians say the arrest throws doubt on the integrity of Canada's most highly trained and secret military unit. Sgt. Darnell Bass, 31, said to be a member of Canada's Joint Task Force 2 unit based at CFB Petawawa, was being flown into Calgary today amid heavy security after being arrested and taken off the base near Ottawa early yesterday. - -- Alfred Hovdestad -- Member of -- Saskatchewan Responsible Firearm Owners Saskatchewan Bowhunters Association National Firearms Association Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation Reform Party of Canada CRIME CONTROL, NOT MORE GUN CONTROL! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:00:17 -0600 From: lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Subject: Re: FedUp Rally At 05:37 AM 7/17/98 -0600, TBF wrote: >O.K. I finally got around to it and sent my donation off today. How about >everyone else? Much money is still needed. > >TBF I went down to my local CIBC and used their interbranch service to make a deposit of $200.00 to Transit - 986; Account #1697331. Worked really well, got a receipt from the bank and everything. If I can't be there, my money most certainly will! BTW, barbershop waiting rooms are excellent distribution points for FEDUP and Firearms issue related matterials. Be sure to ask permission from the proprietor. he problem is I can't get enough material into them. We are getting the word out. I carry a bundle of NFA newsletters (when I can get them) and Resposible Firearms owner of Alberta newsletters in my vehicle. I pass these out when ever I get the opportunity. It may be time to hold some local "information" meetings with a bit of local advertising. I am working on a newspaper article with a local reporter with the object of promoting our local gun club and educating the public about the pending gun laws. People out there are mad as H*ll!, give them a place to vent their anger. A direct deposit to the Fedup II CIBC account (Transit - 986; Account #1697331) would make them feel better.... One more thing, the only paper trail is your initials on the deposit slip... and the lady at CIBC said "Fedup II, whose account is that?" Lets help her learn! Jerrold lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Peace River, Alberta, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:00:21 -0600 From: lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Subject: So only the police and military should have guns? 'Elite' soldier charged in Brink's heist By PETER SMITH, CALGARY SUN CALGARY< CALGARY -- A member of Canada's elite military commando anti-terrorist force has been charged with a Brink's heist in which 80 shots and tear gas were fired in a Calgary mall. The complete story at: http://www.canoe.com/TorontoNews/ts.ts-07-17-0012.html lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Peace River, Alberta, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:33:52 -0600 From: Gordon Subject: politiians Politicians and diapers should be changed regularly. and for the same reasons! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:18:51 -0600 From: DONGRES Subject: Re: New Computer Software for Police Gordon wrote: > the term NAZI springs to mind! or FBI . Gordon! > > BC NFA wrote: > > > NATIONAL FIREARMS ASSOCIATION > > BRITISH COLUMBIA BRANCH > > > > Announced on the 6 o'clock news July 15, 1998. > > > > I ask you to read this please; while reading keep in mind > > this is easily adaptable to observe firearms owners patterns. > > > > Const. Oscar Ramos and Const. Raymond Payette of the > > Vancouver City Police made announcement of their new > > "Shame the Johns" software. It is designed to share > > information with all levels of police in the Lower Mainland > > and elsewhere. > > > > This software allows the tracking of vehicle movements > > and buying patterns. It allows police to predict when and > > where you will be at anytime. It is designed to collect > > name, date of birth, license number, discription of vehicle > > -and-other-information. It will automatically generate > > a letter to send to the persons home informing other > > family members of the persons activities. > > > > Michelle Traver > > SSAC > > NFA-BC > > 1706 E. 1st Ave., Van., BC V5N 1B1 > > 1877-254-2100, local 604-254-2100 > > fax 604-255-2202 1)Parents of a 17 year old are not allowed to see their child's medical record, and were therefore prevented from seeking a second opinion. How could police spread any private information LEGALLY, by a letter generated by a computer, with its disregard of what it is. 2) It would be quite easy to make life for Const. Oscar Ramos and Const. Raymond Payette virtually unbearable without breaking any law or being excesively mean >:- | 3) Vancouver Police have too much time on their hands and needs some budget cuts soon. Perhaps Mike Harris could help. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:21:49 -0600 From: "Fred Davis" Subject: RE: politicians "The anti-gun movement is like a pair of baby's diapers: always on your ass and full of sh*t". -- Richard Bash - Combat Arms BBS SysOp. - -----Original Message----- From: Gordon [mailto:acardin@v-wave.com] Sent: Friday, July 17, 1998 11:34 AM Subject: politiians Politicians and diapers should be changed regularly. and for the same reasons! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:21:54 -0600 From: "Kali J." Subject: MUST READ! Re: Only the police and the military Kind of blows Chretien, Rock, et.al. ideas to pieces eh? Now, do you think this means we have the military on "our" side - that perhaps they don't see eye to eye with our government? Kali Alfred.Hovdestad@usask.ca wrote: > > Only the police and the military should have guns, eh? > > http://www.canoe.ca/CalgaryNews/03_n1.html > > COMMANDO BUSTED > > ANTI-TERRORIST EXPERT CHARGED IN > SHOOT-'EM-UP BRINK'S ROBBERY > > By PETER SMITH -- Calgary Sun > A member of Canada's elite military commando > anti-terrorist force has been charged with the Brink's heist > at North Hill Mall when 80 shots and tear gas were fired. > Military experts and defence politicians say the arrest > throws doubt on the integrity of Canada's most highly > trained and secret military unit. > Sgt. Darnell Bass, 31, said to be a member of Canada's > Joint Task Force 2 unit based at CFB Petawawa, was being > flown into Calgary today amid heavy security after being > arrested and taken off the base near Ottawa early yesterday. > > -- > Alfred Hovdestad -- Member of -- > Saskatchewan Responsible Firearm Owners > Saskatchewan Bowhunters Association National Firearms > Association > Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation Reform Party of Canada > > CRIME CONTROL, NOT MORE GUN CONTROL! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:10:42 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Ways to Win >> 1. Use their own law against them by following it to the letter -- see my >> "verification" postings. The "verifier" system is a grave danger to them. >> 2. Use the POLITICAL system to convince the politicians that the firearms >> community can and will FIRE any politician who backs this mess -- either by >> denying him or her the nomination to run from INSIDE the Party (the easier >> way, needing fewer people -- there are so FEW people who hold Party >> memberships in ANY Party) or by voting against him or her for the >> next-most-likely-to-win candidate. >Dave, I do not think #2 will work with the Liberal party as they have >changed the party constitution so the "Top Hog" can refuse to accept any >nomination he disagrees with and can hand pick his own candidate in any >riding. >The "Top Hog" did just that in the last election with 6 constituencies that I >know of to "balance the number of women running under the party banner" and >there is nothing to stop him from doing it in every constituency in Canada. Yep -- and every time he DID that, MORE voters recognized the Liberals as an ANTI-democratic Party. It COSTS the Liberals -- so let us force him to do it MORE OFTEN. >A second flaw I see in #2 is the tendency of elected Liberal Party members to >toe the "Top Hog's" line after they are elected regardless of what their >constancy thinks of it. Canadians witnessed this in both the C 68 and >Hepatitis C votes. The Liberal backbenchers complained but voted the "Top >Hog's" orders like the spineless wimps they are. Of course they do -- WHEN THE "TOP HOG" PM BARKS, the piglet MPs jump -- UNLESS the piglets have POWER. At present, the MPs are sitting in a Parliament where, if any ten of them vote AGAINST Chretien's orders -- the government will FALL, and an election will be called. They HAVE power -- but are too timid and intimidated to USE it. THAT gets them into hot water - -- as Hepatitis C did, alienating voters and turning them AWAY from the Liberal Party. THAT is why we, in the firearms community, must do our best to KEEP REMINDING PEOPLE ABOUT SUCH PROBLEM AREAS. If voters hear about problems OFTEN, and issues do NOT "go away," then more and more voters slowly turn against the Liberals. And that is our goal -- if the Liberals are re-elected in the NEXT federal election, the firearms community will be in even DEEPER trouble. Therefore, the MPs must decide -- do I do what he tells me, and be hated by my constituents -- who then will not vote for me any more -- or do I do the opposite, force an election, and have him refuse to allow me to run? At least refuse to run for the LIBERAL Party. If I cause the Chretien government to fall, I can jump to ANOTHER Party -- and it will welcome me with open arms. INTERESTING... Dave Tomlinson, NFA Simon says, "Politicians of different Parties seem to be devoted to getting elected -- far more than they are devoted to any PRINCIPLES their Party supposedly holds dear. That makes them interchangeable at the very top levels -- like Jean Charest, the Conservative-Liberal." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:10:48 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Permit To Carry PRINT AND DISTRIBUTE: >To renew a Permit to Carry a Restricted Weapon one has to first send >back the original. That appear to be the rule in our area. For one, this >doesn't make sense because to renew anything else one doesn't have to >send back the original, say credit card or whatever. But my questions >are: There is no such rule in the law, and therefore any government agent demanding is is writing his own laws. That is illegal. REFUSE to do it. We have to live by the rules -- AND SO DO THEY. >1) Can I use a photocopy when going to the range during the time this is >in process (ususally quite long)? NO. Send THEM a photocopy, and KEEP YOUR ORIGINAL. >2) Can I send for renewal well before the expiry date? Sure, why not? The law is SILENT on this point, so you CAN do it. >Also, why do we have to physically mail our F.A.C. when the computer system >is so reliable (we were told). I never MAIL my credit card when ordering >anything. It would defeat the purpose of security. Or did I miss the >point? The "point" is to make acquiring firearms difficult and risky, to persuade you not to do it. So -- go renew your FAC now. That will give you a half-price "extra" FAC which you can mail away, while using the other one at home. Additionally, your new FAC will become a C-68 "licence" on the day C-68 comes into force -- and it will screw up their ill-designed "system" for five long years. Dave Tomlinson, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:10:37 -0600 From: "Kali J." Subject: Re: Only the police and the military Does Simon ask "where can we join up?" Alfred.Hovdestad@usask.ca wrote: > > Only the police and the military should have guns, eh? > > http://www.canoe.ca/CalgaryNews/03_n1.html > > COMMANDO BUSTED > > ANTI-TERRORIST EXPERT CHARGED IN > SHOOT-'EM-UP BRINK'S ROBBERY > > By PETER SMITH -- Calgary Sun > A member of Canada's elite military commando > anti-terrorist force has been charged with the Brink's heist > at North Hill Mall when 80 shots and tear gas were fired. > Military experts and defence politicians say the arrest > throws doubt on the integrity of Canada's most highly > trained and secret military unit. > Sgt. Darnell Bass, 31, said to be a member of Canada's > Joint Task Force 2 unit based at CFB Petawawa, was being > flown into Calgary today amid heavy security after being > arrested and taken off the base near Ottawa early yesterday. > > -- > Alfred Hovdestad -- Member of -- > Saskatchewan Responsible Firearm Owners > Saskatchewan Bowhunters Association National Firearms > Association > Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation Reform Party of Canada > > CRIME CONTROL, NOT MORE GUN CONTROL! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:10:30 -0600 From: Dave Hammond Subject: Aussie gun clubs balloon ) Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Here's a news article from Australia that seems to be foreshadowing of what will happen in Canada should C-68 come fully into force. All those list subscribers who are handgun club executives should be interested. I've always wondered how the existing range/club facilities will be able to accommodate the millions of handgun owners who do not belong to a club but will now have to join to keep their handguns? Shooters crowd into clubs ... to keep their guns Alone on the range ... Roy Smith of the rapidly expanding Sporting Shooters Association examines its planned new complex. Photo by STEVEN SIEWERT By ROBERT WAINWRIGHT Membership of shooting and hunting clubs in NSW has nearly doubled in the past year to about 100,000 as gun owners, fearful of losing their unregistered firearms, rush to be licensed before the amnesty ends on July 31. The unprecedented surge in membership has revealed that firearm ownership in the State is much higher than previously believed. But club executives admit that few of their new members are interested in club activities, and that most see membership as a way to satisfy bureaucrats that their ownership of weapons is legitimate. Under new legislation, members of the clubs will have to attend only two meetings a year to retain their licences. The rush to join the clubs has been mirrored in the ranks of the Shooters Party, which is believed to now have over 30,000 members - more than any other political party in NSW. The party's sole MP, Mr John Tingle, said the membership numbers proved industry claims that the State and Federal governments had seriously underestimated the number of guns in the community. He said gun owners were angry about the "utter chaos" of the police firearm registry in the wake of the late flood of applications for licences. More than 30,000 applications were received in the last two weeks of June before the Police Minister, Mr Whelan, announced a month's extension. Registry staff have been increased to 145 to cope with the paperwork but no-one could tell the Herald how many licences had been issued, how many applications had been made, or how many clubs had been officially recognised. Dozens of new gun clubs have sprung up across metropolitan and regional areas, and industry observers expect the number to swell even more before the State Government's registration deadline. The Federation of Hunting Clubs did not exist last year yet it now represents more than 40 clubs and 25,000 members, and membership is increasing at the rate of 500 a week. At Cessnock, where Government estimates said there were only 200 shooters, there are 3,000 members of one new club. In each of the cities of Musswellbrook, Inverell and Tamworth there are more than 1,000 members of new clubs. The Sporting Shooters Association (SSA), which has doubled its members in NSW to 32,000 - and has 60,000 nationwide - is spending $2 million building a massive indoor range at St Marys to cope with the influx. The executive officer of the SSA, Mr Roy Smith, said yesterday: "The whole thing has been a mix-up from the start. The politicians and the bureaucrats wanted things to happen quickly but the system wasn't able to cope. Everyone underestimated the size of the issue and wanted to rush. The laws have been a windfall for membership but we cannot honestly suggest that the new members are interested in the sport." Mr Smith said construction was expected to begin by September and that the range should be open by early next year. He expected 45,000 shooters a year to use it by 2001. "Our membership increase has meant we can fast-track the development, and has also made the association at a national level a more powerful lobby group." The project has also been prompted by disappointment over the decision by Olympic chiefs to scale down plans for a Games shooting venue. A spokesman for the NSW Rifle Association, Mr John Roberts, said registration appeared to have been a bureaucratic failure. "Most gun owners have not even heard back from the registry," he said. "The extra month is nothing more than an admission that they have bitten off more than the system can chew." Mr Tingle said that 12 new Shooters Party branches had been established in recent months, with another six to open by the end of August. He would not reveal the membership, but said: "We know we have more than the Liberal Party [11,500] or the ALP [20,000], and believe we now have more than the Nationals [30,000]." ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #498 **********************************