From - Tue Oct 13 11:14:50 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA22356; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 06:30:56 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07838; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 06:12:28 -0600 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 06:12:28 -0600 Message-Id: <199810121212.GAA07838@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #635 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: RO X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 360c873d00006e12 Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, October 12 1998 Volume 02 : Number 635 In this issue: Letter to the Editor, Calgary Sun Re: Cornwall Show Sting Life down under Fw: Aussie Re: Political Promotions in V2 #634 Saving money Justice, ConLib style. Response to submission from Len McLaughlin Verifying registered firearms - it IS a fiasco Fw: Wendy and her concerns in V2 #634 Re: [Bar codes] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 04:57:47 -0600 From: Don Clarke Subject: Letter to the Editor, Calgary Sun The following a copy of a letter I sent Oct 10/98. It is a response to Lyn (I hate guns) Cockburns column of October 7/98, which can be found at http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/home.html Some of you may remember that four of us digest readers offered to bet Lyn over $1,000 that she couldn't get a legal handgun in less than a month and she refused the bet. Although I sent the CILA press release to the Sun as part of the letter, I've snipped it here. ****************** Calgary Sun Letter to the Editor; Oct 10/98 Dear Editor, I had my attention drawn to Ms. Cockburn's October 7/98 column "Registering cars gnaws freedom (Does this line of reasoning sound at all familiar?)" by an acquaintance. After reading the article, I am left wondering why Ms. Cockburn refuses to do some basic research on the subject of "gun control" here in Canada. As a journalist, is she not trained to look at "both sides" of the controversy or is she just a columnist who takes her position and ignores any evidence to the contrary? In Ms. Cockburns article, she ridicules one of the anti-registration arguments by saying, "if I give in to unjust government laws and register it, next thing you know, the feds will be banging on my garage door, if I had one, to take it away. Registration of cars is the first step towards government takeover of cars. Think about it. CSIS and RCMP agents (armed with pepper spray and ketchup) swarming over rooftops, falling like locusts to the ground and kicking in our garage doors. Why? To take your car and mine, that's why." Although Ms. Cockburn appears to feel our statement that "registration precedes confiscation" is just "fear mongering" and should be laughed at, it is already happening. I would like Ms. Cockburn to try to explain why she is so reluctant to admit that under Bill C-68 (the Lieberal gun control law), legally owned and legally registered firearms are to be confiscated without compensation. Under the legislation, any handgun with a barrel less than 4.14" or in a calibre of .25 or ..32 purchased since February 14th 1995 is turned into a "prohibited" firearm and may only be owned by someone who owned one prior to February 14th 1995. All others, about 47,000, must be disposed of by selling to a "grandfathered owner" or be turned in to the government without compensation. This portion of the gun control law was supposed to take effect on Dec. 1st, 1998, but has just been delayed for 1 year. (See following CILA press release) Don Clarke Marathon Ontario 1 807 229 1036 1 807 229 1134 fax/data ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 04:57:51 -0600 From: DJ MacIntyre Subject: Re: Cornwall Show Sting As I heard it last night, from someone who was there, it started something like we've all done at one time or another, haggling over a nice firearm. A big, clean cut guy, after the price was fixed, was asked for his FAC. "Aw, damn, forgot it at home." "Well," says the dealer, "No can do without it. Can't you go home and get it?" "But I live 150 miles away," whined the buyer. "I'm not going there and coming back here." "Well," countered the dealer, "why don't you buy it now, and pick it up at my shop..." "Nope," said the buyer. "If I don't get it now, I don't want it. Oh, I just remembered, I left it on the kitchen table. Could I call the wife, and have her read it to me over the phone?" At this point WARNING BUZZERS should be going off in your head... "Well, I don't like it, but I guess so," agreed the dealer. He got the number, it looked like an FAC number (right alphanumerics). Money changed hands, and the badge came out. If that doesn't stink to high heavens of entrapment... Well, it's like they say. "No good deed ever goes unpunished." Never let your guard down. The only way to beat them is to know their rules and play the game better than they can. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 06:31:56 -0600 From: "Alan Harper" Subject: Life down under More from down under. Looks like they're getting it pretty bad there. = All semi's and pump-actions banned. ______________________________________________________ I told you I was away for a week I took my girl friend and two rifles = with me but never got the rifles out of the case I was in the bush just = looking, I went to a spot that I know where my uncles lived and worked = in the thirties they had a gold lease and during the depression that's = how they made their money or I should say scratched out a living I have = been their before and worked the gold but I found the same as they did, = their is a hell of a dirt mixed in with it up until five years ago it = was just crown land and anybody could go there but now it's been made = into a national park and access is restricted and they have pulled down = the hut that I rebuilt so you see that I don't go there much. As I said I am going up to my friend Ian's place in three weeks we plan = to do a bit of rabbit shooting they are starting to come back again and = we want to get into them before the mixo flattens them I plan to take my = 22.250 the Winchester with the heavy barrel it is a very good long range = rifle. We have just had an election and the government has gotten back in again = BUT they lost 20 seats we didn't do that well with the red neck party we = poled over a million votes but only got one person into the parliament I = don't know what type of system you guys have got but we have the = preferential system and with the two party system we had both parties = giving each other their preferences so us red necks couldn't get in it's = a closed shop the big boys just keep it for them selves so if we want = change I don't know what you do our lot call anybody who speaks against = them Racists and they have the media on side because they dole out the = licences for the TV stations etc and we only have two people that own = all our media. All I plan to do is vote against the party that's in power at each = election we shooters are in real trouble as both parties have the same = fire arms policy and that is to get rid of all firearms so then we will = have no crime or that what they tell us and our stupid media all agree, = but anybody who has a brain knows that is bullshit so you must ask your = self why they are doing this? __________________________________________________ Bye. Al. *** Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum *** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 08:08:44 -0600 From: "Alan Harper" Subject: Fw: Aussie I got a letter from a friend in Australia. Thought I'd share it with = CFD readers. I cut a couple of paragraphs off, but what's left is = unedited. The Aussie dollar is worth about $.90 to $.95 Canadian now. __________________________________________________________________ I have been doing some Deer hunting and over the past two years I have = got three nice Deer the first was a Fallow Stag not a record but a = very nice deer I am looking at him right now the next Deer that I got = was Fourteen point Red Stag I got him up in Queensland last year also = last year I got a small white tail only a four pointer but still a white = tail not to many people in Australia have one of them. =20 We have just had an election and the Government that put in to force all = the gun laws got back in. They lost 20 seats and now have a majority of = 6 seats. I hope we get the bastards next time. I am afraid the = shooters of this country have very short memories and we deserve all we = get but I know I will never again vote for them. Our right wing red = neck party won 12% of the vote but could not get anyone in as the other = two parties gave each other their votes to keep us out. As you know we had the big buy back. It cost the government millions. = They bought back all the deadly semi-autos and paid top dollar for them. = I had only one gun that was any good it was a Winchester 12 gauge pump = that are now illegal. It was worth about $250. The silly buggers gave = me $980 for it and I had a heap of 22 semi autos, all junk. The best = was worth about $50. I had six of these. At the best I should have = gotten $250 to $300 for them. Well in the end I got just under a grand, = better than new price. The joke was that all these 22's had been given = to me by a copper who did not want to see them destroyed. Well I took the money and did some shopping. I picked up a Colt Python = with a 4" barrel and a number of very good rifles starting with heavy = barrel 22.250 Winchester, 308 Savage lever action, 222 heavy barrel = Sako, 7x57 Mauser, 17 Ackley Hornet, 17.222 rimmed, a couple of 270. In all, I up graded all my firearms. = Any thing that was on the old side, or I should say on the well used = side, was up graded. We now have the firearms registration system in place and let me tell = you it's a joke. A complete stuffup, after six months I have just got = my last registration paper back. We have had wrong numbers, on = different guns, wrong calibres, etc. You know just what could go wrong, = but the powers to be all say it's just so wonderful and the media all so = says it's just great so it must be working if the media says so. Crime has dropped and we have had no murders or holdups since this has = been in all we have had to do is ban the carrying of pocket knives you = have no idea of the bull it just keeps coming but if the media says so = it must be right. What has happened is that a lot of people have just not bothered to = register as shooters so the police don't know they have firearms and the = rest have only registered about one third of what they own as they just = don't trust any of the politicians can you blame them. I plan to go up to my mate Ian's place in a couple of weeks and do a bit = of rabbit shooting he tells me that the rabbits numbers have built up = over the spring and we better get stuck into them before the Myxo wipes = them out, while I was away I picked up the two Dingo skins that I had at = the Taxidermist I got them last Xmas when I was on a trip up the coast. _____________________________________________________ Commentary on my part would be superfluous. Bye. Al. *** Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum *** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 09:02:28 -0600 From: "Len McLaughlin" Subject: Re: Political Promotions in V2 #634 >Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 06:21:05 -0600 >From: "Rick Kokiw" >Subject: Political Promotions > >Sorry folks, but when I signed up for the Digest I thought I was going to-------- In the above Rick objected to political promotions appearing in the digest, which made me think of a previous digest in which the writer was baffled by Canadians blindly supporting the old parties with all their lies and arrogance, both currently and historically. This is where I'm at. Currently, the U.S. has their Slick Willie and we have our SLICK JOHNNY, both Teflon coated and both supported by don't-confuse-me-with- the-facts voters. I'm of the opinion that we gun owners are down for the count and at this point I'd vote for the devil to kill C-68. At the worst the "devil" would only be in for four years, long enough to kill C-68 and then we can kick him out. Personally I don't think we will want to do that and in fact will kick ourselves for being so timid as not to have voted them in sooner. However, I can see where people may have difficulties switching party loyalties but I hope that Canadians , especially here in the east, will eventually outgrow that timidity. Maybe westerners are closer to pioneer stock and thus more adventurous. I'd have to ask the Rick's what options do we have left? Any new party will have to modify some policies when they come to power, that has applied to parties all over the world. I support Reform for two, no three basic reasons. One is C-68 and two, I think they are the only party that will stand up to the bureaucrats. The third is the record of the old parties and if you listen to Joe, you know that the PCs haven't changed a bit. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:17:54 -0600 From: Malcolm Baron Subject: Saving money I have been off-line for a long time. I have now relocated from Ottawa to Pickering (near Toronto), not through any real choice of mine however. I received some mailings from the NFA the other day and it occurred to me that perhaps we could save money for the fight by not sending out copies of Point Blank to people who have access to this forum. It is a well put together news letter, but if I have access to the Digest I really don't need to receive it. And As I said, the money could be better spent. Thoughts anyone? Malcolm Baron in Pickering ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:37:59 -0600 From: Jim Davies Subject: Justice, ConLib style. On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: > Subject: Court ruling > > >Unlike other tools or objects in our society which can, if misused, cause > >death, firearms almost universally have as their purpose the function of > >killing, maiming or intimidating other living creatures. >>>>Unlike cars, > which > >are designed to transport people, and unlike knives, which are rarely > >designed to kill, firearms are designed for essentially violent > uses........ > > The above is attributed to the C.J. and I'm not a lawyer but something > doesn't ring true. When she uses the term "living creatures", what is she > referring to? It sounds like "animals" to me , so is she ruling on hunting? > Was that her mandate or is she allowing her personal bias to cloud her > ruling and thus her professionalism? >> What you are seeing is the vocabulary of the extremist, whether from PETA, WWF, the RadFem fringe or other similar radical groups. Like the Justices of Nazi-era Germany, any "professionalism" will be pushed aside to advance rigid personal agendas. These people have a theory, and that is ALL they believe in. Reality will be molded to fit...Pol Pot would be proud. "As of oligarchy, so of tyranny...both distrust the people and so deprive them of their arms. Both agree, too, in injuring the people and driving them out..." Aristotle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:38:04 -0600 From: Ross Anderson Subject: Response to submission from Len McLaughlin A response to: From: "Len McLaughlin" Statement from Alberta Supreme Court Challenge "Unlike other tools or objects in our society which can, if misused, cause death, firearms almost universally have as their purpose the function of killing, maiming or intimidating other living creatures." This is the opinion of judge who watches too many movies and too much television. Is this judge saying that my Browning BT99 trap gun, my Beretta Olympic trap gun, my Diamond Grade Browning 20 gauge Skeet gun, and all the other competition shotguns which I have used are designed for "the function of killing, maiming or intimidating other living creatures."? Our club alone fires off hundreds of thousands of rounds a year from firearms that are specifically and only designed for sport shooting. This sort of emotionally based ignorance eliminates this judge from any clear reasoning of this subject. She should have concentrated on the infringement of jurisdiction which is the main objection of the provinces to this legislation. Ross Anderson Delta BC ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:30:36 -0600 From: Ken Pisichko Subject: Verifying registered firearms - it IS a fiasco The proponents of C-68 are all singing the same song - words that parrot the phrase: lets make Canada safer. Well I wonder. The costs of the implementation of C-68 are now well over a million bucks and escalating like the MPs' pension! Now we have the Department of Justice with their registered guns verifiers. And the (in)famous CD-ROM used by the poor verifiers to identify the guns that are already registered..... Do I have your attention? Good! Last night (Saturday) I spoke with a gunsmith and firearms dealer in Iqualuit (sp??) NWT. He mentioned that a few days ago he was visited by the local verifyer to verify his shop's 6 registered handguns. To the CBC folks who are reading this I must make note that handguns must be registered by dealers who then get the CFC (Canadian Firearms Center) to change the registration to that of the local purchaser. This process takes a few weeks .It took me over 3 months. The verifyer used his/her CD_ROM developed by the Canadian Department of Justice to check the 6 handguns. Luckily 4 were on the CD, but 2 were not. Hummmmm... You have to wonder why a handgun that has been around for a lot of years, made by a well-known US manufacturer (Colt) in numbers exceeding 100,000 would not be in the fancy CD-ROM. You also have to wonder why a firearm that is formally registered (ie with government supplied papers) is not in the official government supplied data base. You have to wonder how many other types of mistakes there are. Perhaps DAT is correct saying that 40% of the CD-ROM is flawed. How is such a flaw going to help police identify guns used in crime? How is this flawed database going to save lives? Perhaps Wendy Cukier of the Coalition for Gun Control has the answer? Perhaps the CBC types who are reading this can get the information? Is the spending of more money needed? Maybe so. Throw it at the C-68 Titanic. Inquiring minds want to know. This inquiring mind wants to know when the Musgrave rifle actions that I import will be identified as "those South African handguns" that the Canada Customs officer at Winnipeg International Airport Terminal 2 called them. Does Customs know something I don't know? I am willing to pay for this information, BUT it should be public information that I should have free access to. Unfortunately there will be a lot of foolish money spent by the feds, by provinces and by firearms owners before this "gun-control" silliness is settled. Settled will not be the case either, for the criminal will always be there to sidestep the law - just as is the case now. Here's hoping that my province (Manitoba) will join Alberta's challenge of C-68 to the Supreme Court of Canada. Ken in Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:30:48 -0600 From: "Len McLaughlin" Subject: Fw: Wendy and her concerns in V2 #634 When ever I see Wendy on TV, I always think of those now politically incorrect dumb blond jokes. I know there are just as many dumb brunettes, redheads etc. and of both genders.( does that get me off the hook because I'm a dumb Maritimer). Added to this is she not a professor and a lawyer? Is it my imagination or do most of the spokespersons against the rights of others fit into this category? The two that spearheaded the drive to confiscate all guns in England certainly fall into this category, one a retired professor and the other, a blond housewife. Maybe these types just function more on emotion, are more appealing, more photogenic or more believable than the rest of us and therefore are used by others to sell whatever. Or maybe they just have a simpler or narrower view of the realities of life due to their sheltered lifestyles. We do know that most Canadians in the east vote on image or appearance, not reality. ie- Don't confuse us with the facts. I would like to see someone put these types of questions to Wendy - Will she guarantee the present proposed costs to the gun owner? That outright and unjust confiscation will not happen? ( Not just that its not in the plans of the present government- a favorite answer of our justice minister)That fees or regulations will not simply be increased to, in effect, confiscate through the back door? That she post her house as being gun free? etc.,etc.. In any of her appearances that I have seen, no hard questions have been either put to or answered by her. Maybe she has to be challenged by newspaper or TV ads and if the public sees her refusing to answer, that has to damage her creditability - the name of the game. So, to fight back, you attempt to damage the creditability of the statements of the spokesperson, not the person herself. My attack on blonds was an attempt at humor and nothing more. Wendy herself may be the best of the best but simply misguided or misinformed. Nobody ever sees themselves as the villian. Also we should be trying to get across to the hierarchy of the Liberal Party that the future of the party is being jeopardized by both Wendy and Chretien, who both will be getting on with their lives while the Party will be left holding the bag. The RCMP may be stopped from using pepper spray but the evening news will still be showing them forcing entry, carrying out guns from the homes of what use to be law abiding citizens and maybe even bringing out the father in hand-cuffs. What an image! Even if they manage this in secret and in spite of loose lips, the court sentencing will still be in the evening paper. And this could go on for years. Is this the image the Party is prepared to live with? Their perceived and longterm Divine Right to rule might be in trouble. The survival instinct overrides all others. Len , Fm the Maritimes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 06:12:23 -0600 From: Marc Mousseau Subject: Re: [Bar codes] Bar codes are just numbers, not some "secret" words. They allow easier data entry by computer with less typos. The bar codes on the C-68 forms are just same as the number printed below the bar code. Same thing at the supermaket. If they can't scan the code, they just type in the number. There are many different types of barcodes, and some do have letters. Most of the time, including this time, bar codes are just numbers for the computer to read. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #635 **********************************