From - Thu Oct 22 15:50:47 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA12489; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:46:02 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17565; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:33:58 -0600 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:33:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199810222133.PAA17565@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #657 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 360c873d00007646 Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, October 22 1998 Volume 02 : Number 657 In this issue: The right to remain silent... Re: CFC bulletin 24 Re: New Gun Club re: Lousy Loonie Service rifle match Re: Alberta verifiers please send only plain text to the mailing lists! how to win an argument - TIP Re: Unknown Re: SIMON Re: Verifiers Registration data. RE: CFC bulletin 24 Re: Registration of a 4" barrel Letter to the Brockville Recorder & Times ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:38:31 -0600 From: "Jean-Francois Avon" Subject: The right to remain silent... Cc: Me Marc Meunier and Me Michel Kelly-Gagnon, lawyers. C-68 forces you to "assist" law officers in a search done under C68, if you simply refuse, I recall you are liable to up to 2 years imprisonment. Doesn't that conflict with the right to remain silent and not incriminate yourself? Isn't the fact that you *have* to help the police is that it considers you "guilty by default" ? [I would think so. I think the Canada Evidence Act would kick in. It states that you can be compelled to give testimony that incriminates you BUT THAT THAT EVIDENCE MAY NOT THEN BE USED AGAINST YOU. -- Skeeter] Ciao jfa Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds (Montreal), Canada Unregistered Firearms in the hands of honest citizens: Liberty's Teeth Strong Cryptographic tools in the hands of honest citizens: Liberty's Voice He who beats his sword into a ploughshare will get coerced to plow for those who don't... PGP keys: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:45:15 -0600 From: "John E. Stevens" Subject: Re: CFC bulletin 24 In CFC Bulletin No 24 The Canadian Firearms Centre (CFC) wrote in part, as follows: ----------Quoted from Bulletin 24-------------- "A Registration Certificate will be valid for as long as you own your firearm unless you modify your firearm one of two ways. If you modify your registered firearm in a way that changes the class of the firearm (non-restricted, restricted, prohibited), you must notify the Registrar within 30 days of the change. If your firearm is registered as a frame or receiver only, and you modify the frame or receiver so that it can fire ammunition, again you must notify the Registrar within 30 days. A new Registration Certificate will cost $12.50." --------------end of quote----------------------------- I am wondering exactly where in the law this may be found? I believe the legislation requires that the frame be registered. I've failed to see where the frame or receiver's ability, or inablility, to fire ammunition has any bearing on it's registration requirements. The legislation does not require the registration of any spare parts such as grips, sights or barrels. Furthermore, I've been unable to find the legislative basis for a registration certificate to expire as a result of replacing spare parts. The Parliament of Canada, when passing this legislation, seemed to be aware of the fact that a firearm may, in fact, have a number of barrels. Parliament, in it's wisdom, chose to require the registration of the frame rather than the various spare parts. I was not aware that Parliament had made such revision in the legislation. I am forwarding a copy of this request to my (Liberal) MP for his comment, as well John E. Stevens Resident, Perth Middlesex [Another fine example of how the bureaucrats have made a mess with the hundred-plus pages of C-68, the hundred-plus pages of regulations, and their thousand page manuals and many error-ridden bulletins. This gem (about alteration and notification) is in the regs. Simple question: What happens if I "alter" the firearm but "alter" it back before 30 days? -- Skeeter] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:46:20 -0600 From: dons@cadabratech.com (Don Shesnicky) Subject: Re: New Gun Club >A young friend of mine is attempting to buy a range, and requires info: on >Insurance. Would you be so kind as to send this info to me. >31 Gilder Drive #1707 Toronto Ont. M1K4P8 A brief >overview in an E-mail would be helpfull. Thank You. Mike H. You can print out the following page: http://www.cyberus.ca/~kdesolla/insure.htm it gives pretty much the same information as Dave did in his posting but in more detail. It was created from his information on NFA insurance a couple of months ago. Don ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:51:26 -0600 From: "James Bachynsky" Subject: re: Lousy Loonie Service rifle match "James Bachynsky" wrote: >The next Edmonton area service rifle match will be 25 [Oct.] at the >Edmonton Fish and Game range(just NW of St Albert). The Loonie bin will >be out again, so drop by, watch or shoot and drop some loonies in the >bin to protect our rights. > >For info on the matches, or directions to the range drop me a message. > >James Sorry, my post had 25 Sep, the match is in fact on 25 Oct. Regret confusion, were does the time go? James ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:52:33 -0600 From: dons@cadabratech.com (Don Shesnicky) Subject: Re: Alberta verifiers > They requested that his business supply a verifier. He refused. > The RCMP then stated if he did not comply, they would revoke his > business's firearms licence. This is a disgusting act and it appears to not be the first. I think we should all be telling firearm businesses to try to catch someone from the RCMP saying this. I doubt that they would be dumb enough to put it in writing but if someone could witness the event perhaps they could immediately swear out some sort of statement. Don ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:05:21 -0600 From: ab133@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: please send only plain text to the mailing lists! More frequently people are sending "fancy" messages to the lists, esp. the digest. This includes HTML messages. PLEASE don't do this. More often than not the message ends up appearing twice in the e-mail, once plain and once in HTML. This is a real waste of space and can cause problems for some people reading their e-mail. Please: plain text only. thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:27:30 -0600 From: ab133@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: how to win an argument - TIP If you are talking about C-68 with someone who supports it, just ask the person is (s)he has read it. "Have you read it?" Normally, this stops the person cold. Very effective if debating in front of a group. (If (s)he _has_ read it, then you can get into the meat of it. "Well then you know about the part that..." and so on.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:24:57 -0600 From: Marc Sauve Subject: Re: Unknown > If you own a firearm chambered in .223 Rem or .308 Win, and that is the > calibre you ask for when you purchase ammo or cases to shoot in that gun, > then you might think you have no choice but to put that information on a > registration form. How could you not be certain of the caliber when you > order it at a counter and successfully shoot it afterwards? > > I have an Enfield P14 chambered for .303 Epps Improved. I had the work done myself. The barrel has not been stamped with the new caliber. It will chamber and fire .303 British and, I am told (don't try this at home), 30-30 Winchester. If I sold this rifle to someone else and forgot to mention the alteration to the chamber, it would be very easy to put "false or misleading" information on the registration. The rifle is stamped .303 British and fires the round. I personally saw this error being made by a gunsmith trying to figure out why a customer's rifle shot so low. He didn't examine the brass he was ejecting and was loosing velocity fireforming. I had to point it out to him. And this was a Lee Enfield - a rifle NOT RECOMENDED for that modification. It just never ocurred to him that someone might have done it anyway. Insist that verifiers get a chamber cast or write "unknown". Marc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:27:37 -0600 From: Peter Kearns Subject: Re: SIMON The note below is from the head "SIMON" in Ontario, and it demonstrates how we can defeat the liberals by using our heads and displaying a little initiative. An explanation of the SIMON system follows. A few of us decided that the methods we used in the past, (although they worked) had limited appeal. "Remember C68 when you vote" worked and DID cost the CLOG a number of votes. The problem was that the average Canadian voter didn't know anything about C68, so we rethought the idea and came up with the following plan. We must get rid of the liberals and we have to do it with humour and a certain style that will appeal to all voters. The opening salvo will be a "sticker" campaign. The 2" x 4" blaze orange stickers will feature a stylised devils head in the top left corner, and a message that relates to the liberal government. (We are currently working out prices and deliveries for rolls of the stickers with the suppliers.) Messages so far are "I will abolish the GST, I will kill it" Jean Chretien (Lies more lies!) "Jean ordered the RCMP to spray our kids with pepper spray." "Liberals hate sick people because they refused compensation for HEP C victims." "Liberals are planning to steal the Employment Insurance surplus." "Andy Scott suffers from selective memory loss." "Chretien, Kanada's dictator!" There will be limericks and "ditty's" that will be funny and VERY offensive to the liberals...... (superliterate SIMONS are working on them right now.) If you have any short and witty CLOG stuff please forward it.... For those who read Heinlein's books, we have adopted the methods used to depose a dictatorship as described in "THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS." We intend to use the small stickers wherever we feel anyone will see them. (The possibilities are endless.) Glass doors at public building entries and exits, (particularly federal buildings) washrooms, bus stops, buses, trains, aircraft, notice boards, mail boxes, elevators and parkades. If we keep the messages interesting and short the public will remember them, and the messages will alter the way they vote. (One of our SIMONS intends to stick the messages on police cars!) You will of course note that we haven't included anything related to C68. We will, but it will be very selective.... maybe "The liberals spent $200 million to register guns, but they won't give money to the HEP C victims." The liberals spent $200 million to register guns. Why didn't they hire more cops instead?" Of course when an election is called there will likely be orange SIMON SAYS: bags to cause the libs grief...... The NFA cannot and will not support this type of action, (and we don't intend to ask them or CILA to commit any resources) otherwise the cynical may figure they had a hand in the organising. No political parties are involved, (although I think they will laugh themselves silly at the liberals distress!) The Simons are not limited to the RFC, and are being recruited from ALL disgruntled anti liberals, and that is why the gun issue is not prominent. We figure that by involving all sectors of society we can deliver one hell of a smack to Chretiens piglets.... Read below how one really pissed off SIMON is already nailing the CLOG..... If you wish to know more kearns@compusmart.ab.ca Peter SIMON wrote: > Actually my plan has changed a little. > Yesterday I came across a program that will let me print the message on > post it notes. The post it notes come on pages of six each. I have printed > five pages and have been posting them around. The reason I like them is > that they will not damage private property. > > I can't wait till the stickers come out since they will be easier to use > than the post it notes. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:29:35 -0600 From: Peter Kearns Subject: Re: Verifiers A SIMON in Calgary passed the following information. Apparently an RCMP officer will journey from Winnipeg to indoctrinate Wholesale Sports (Calgary) verifiers next wednesday..... Russel Sports (Calgary) apparently have so far refused to go along with the verifier program, and my informant says a rumor is being spread that George Reid (our CFO) has told people that if a store refuses to verify, he will not allow them to sell any guns. I know George Reid and believe the rumor must be false. He is far too honorable to say anything so despicable, and (apparently) illegal. As the NFA says, the fact they are trained as verifiers doesn't mean they will do it, or that the store will go along with the feds in this matter. We will only know for sure after 1st December, so moderation please.....Thank you SIMON... regards, Peter Simon says: "Wait until they demonstrate they are quislings before you act....." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:30:22 -0600 From: Dan MacInnis Subject: Registration data. Given that the handgun registration data is corrupted, ineffective and probably useless, what advantage would more corrupted data be to the Fed's??? True, it would run up the costs. To get public opinion on our side, ir is important to do that. But corrupted data, in and off itself, is of no consequence to the Fed's. They do not care. But no data at all will be a problem. They need statistics. When this government digs in it's heels on an issue, nothing short of an election stops them. For some reason, they want this data. See the pressure Scott took re APEC, and it appears he has survived, for now. So pressure would have to be HUGE to get it repealed. I see no such pressure at this time. Ideas anyone??? Let's face it, our voting block is spread accross Canada. The PC candidates paid lip service to C68. Liberals?We know whrer they stand. NDP? Not a hope, with womens issues tied in to C68 by the Montreal faction. In my view, Ontario holds the key. The Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters is vocal but concerned with fishing and conservation matters as well as C68. They may be working behind the scenes at Queens Park but who knows??? I ask everyone reading who lives in Ontario to combine their efforts to lobby Queens Park re C68 as suggested by our President today. If I can help, great. Will I lead it? No, I have no money, only time. If it cost a quarter to go around the world, I could not cross the room. I am so poor I have to paint my feet black and lace up my toes. I am getting care packages from Ethiopia. Between my wife and I, the first one of us up in the morning is the best dressed. True, I am of Scottish decent, and perhaps exagerate a bit, but believe me, it is cost money to lobby. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:32:06 -0600 From: "Ted Carron" Subject: RE: CFC bulletin 24 Ladies and Gentlemen, I have heard it said that it was known for troops, during WW2, to aquire a large caliber revolver and remove the barrel from the frame ( From the discription, these must have been some of the S&W or Colts made for WW1 for the Brits in .455 ). This way the "thing" would easily fit in your pocket, but still be able to be fired. As it was intended to be a very short range weapon, they didn't care if the projectile went through the target sideways, just so long as it got there ! The flash of course would have been terrific. I am somewhat doubtful as to the effectiveness of a round fired from only the cylinder .... At any rate it is pretty clear that for a revolver at least, the frame ( and cylinder) only is quite capable of discharging a round, no mods required. Hence, no notification needed. Regards T. Carron PS, Then of course there are those "wierd" cylinder only , brass knuckle, dagger things that were made at one time back in the twenties (?) for personel defense. No barrel at all. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:33:29 -0600 From: "Alan Harper" Subject: Re: Registration of a 4" barrel >I own a S & W model 686. It was purchased new, in 1988. It had at that time >a 4" barrel. Just prior to Feb. 1995, I had the 4" barrel removed and >replaced with a 6" barrel, as I had been told that after Feb./95 I would not >be able to use the firearm for target practice or competitions if it had a >short barrel(4"). I kept the 4" barrel. >I also have a Erma Werke Mod. ESP 85A target pistol in .22 cal. with a .32 >S&W long conversion barrel which is registered to the pistol as a conversion >barrel. It's not always attached to the pistol, naturally, as depending on >the competition, I may be using the .22 version. It will not become a >prohibited device, because its registered to the pistol. > >I have been emailing the CFC, and they have now told me that I can not >register the 4" barrel with my Model 686, that I must re-attach it to the >gun, re-register the gun with the 4" barrel and then register the 6" barrel! >This doesn't make sense. > >I believe I have the right to register my 4" barrel as a conversion barrel >for my S&W., just like my .32 barrel is registered for my Erma. What do you mean, "they have now told me"? Do you mean on the phone, verbally, or is it in writing? Don't take no for an answer, is my advice. I went through the same BS with a Dan Wesson revolver. I have a 4" barrel for it. They first refused me. I now have the registration for it. When you get an answer from them, get it in writing. If it is verbally, have a witness. That is better than just you hearing it. You then have some corroboration. Next step is to get it in writing. Demand it in writing. Get your MP involved. My MP (Tom Wappell) asked me if I was trying to get the CFC to waste a lot of time in paperwork. He must have heard that from them. I told him I was just trying to obey the law that he voted for. Get started before C68 comes into effect and have a witness for whatever first happens. Demand an answer in writing. Demand that they quote the criminal code with regard to their decisions. Take notes in their presence. They'll get the message. If they don't get the message right away (it sounds like they didn't), get your MP involved. Get your provincial MLA involved. I like the way Peter Kearns said it, "BE A PAIN IN THE ASS". That's beautiful, Peter. Brief and to the point. Now is the time to do it. They are under a lot of pressure and don't want to fight a determined person. Pay close attention to the postings by Peter Kearns and DAT. Bye. Al. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". George Santayana, American Philosopher (1863 - 1952). *** Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum *** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:33:55 -0600 From: Frederick & Celeste Guse Subject: Letter to the Brockville Recorder & Times mailto:editor@recorder.ca Mr. Doug Coward Editorial Page Editor Brockville Recorder & Times Don't Forget the Other Problems! Stewart Macleod's column, "Forget the other problems" in your October 14, 1998 "Recorder and Times" was right on the mark. Mr. Macleod expounded on the serious division between urban and rural Canadians. This division stems from a very real "failure to communicate". Mr. Macleod correctly pointed out that our politicians have been "urbanized" and our print/electronic media is a "massive urban monster. He then used the example of the recent massive protest on Parliament Hill against the government's new "Firearms Act - Bill C-68" to illustrate this division. It is to this issue that I would like to direct my comments. Mr. Macleod is correct in his assertion that the vast majority of rural people are firmly opposed to this legislation. However, a great many urban protesters also attended this rally. The rally organizers have discussed the attendance with the RCMP who monitored this event. The RCMP compared the photographs they used to determine the attendance at the 1994 rally with last month's rally. The RCMP estimated an attendance of 20,500 in 1994. Although they have not completed the physical head count of this year's rally, the RCMP acknowledges the photographs clearly show a larger turnout last month than in 1994. They estimate in excess of 30,000 attendees! Mr. Macleod further unwittingly illustrates the bias of the "massive urban monster", in this case the print media. He did this by using the government's false figure of 10,000 protesters. They are promoting this count to downplay the seriousness of the protest! This is not the only example of the Chretien government promoting false figures with respect to Bill C-68. Another article, in the same edition of the "Recorder and Times", "Ontario challenges gun registry" uses the often-quoted figures of three million firearms owners and seven million firearms in Canada. These figures are supplied by the Department of Justice to support Bill C-68. However, they are refuted by not only the National Firearms Association and independent University researchers, but also by the government's own "Statistics Canada". All of these other sources regularly estimate 6 to 7 million firearms owners and 21 to 24 million firearms in Canada! Why does the Department of Justice repeatedly underestimate the numbers of owners and firearms? Well, by their own statements, it currently costs about $100 to enter a firearm into the existing handgun registry. Instead of costing $600 million to implement a registry for long guns (shotguns and rifles), it will cost the taxpayer $2.4 billion! The government has another reason for lying to you about the number of owners/firearms. Their own surveys indicate that they may expect a compliance rate of only 35% to 40% for the registry portion of this legislation. In order to imply acceptance of this draconian law, they have continually underestimated the firearm statistics so they can claim a high compliance rate! Yes, Mr. Macleod is correct when he says that finding a solution to the urban-rural issue should be a priority to all politicians. However, we should all, both urban and rural Canadians, demand that politicians listen to the will of the people, and not impose their own ill conceived agendas on us! The first step should be the repeal of Bill C-68. Frederick Guse Iroquois, Ontario - --------------6250FD95FF3DB71FE180FCBE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="Recorder_&_Times_Oct_98.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Recorder_&_Times_Oct_98.txt" Don't Forget the Other Problems! Stewart Macleod's column, "Forget the other problems" in your October 14, 1998 "Recorder and Times" was right on the mark. Mr. Macleod expounded on the serious division between urban and rural Canadians. This division stems from a very real "failure to communicate". Mr. Macleod correctly pointed out that our politicians have been "urbanized" and our print/electronic media is a "massive urban monster. He then used the example of the recent massive protest on Parliament Hill against the government's new "Firearms Act - Bill C-68" to illustrate this division. It is to this issue that I would like to direct my comments. Mr. Macleod is correct in his assertion that the vast majority of rural people are firmly opposed to this legislation. However, a great many urban protesters also attended this rally. The rally organizers have discussed the attendance with the RCMP who monitored this event. The RCMP compared the photographs they used to determine the attendance at the 1994 rally with last month's rally. The RCMP estimated an attendance of 20,500 in 1994. Although they have not completed the physical head count of this year's rally, the RCMP acknowledges the photographs clearly show a larger turnout last month than in 1994. They estimate in excess of 30,000 attendees! Mr. Macleod further unwittingly illustrates the bias of the "massive urban monster", in this case the print media. He did this by using the government's false figure of 10,000 protesters. They are promoting this count to downplay the seriousness of the protest! This is not the only example of the Chretien government promoting false figures with respect to Bill C-68. Another article, in the same edition of the "Recorder and Times", "Ontario challenges gun registry" uses the often-quoted figures of three million firearms owners and seven million firearms in Canada. These figures are supplied by the Department of Justice to support Bill C-68. However, they are refuted by not only the National Firearms Association and independent University researchers, but also by the government's own "Statistics Canada". All of these other sources regularly estimate 6 to 7 million firearms owners and 21 to 24 million firearms in Canada! Why does the Department of Justice repeatedly underestimate the numbers of owners and firearms? Well, by their own statements, it currently costs about $100 to enter a firearm into the existing handgun registry. Instead of costing $600 million to implement a registry for long guns (shotguns and rifles), it will cost the taxpayer $2.4 billion! The government has another reason for lying to you about the number of owners/firearms. Their own surveys indicate that they may expect a compliance rate of only 35% to 40% for the registry portion of this legislation. In order to imply acceptance of this draconian law, they have continually underestimated the firearm statistics so they can claim a high compliance rate! Yes, Mr. Macleod is correct when he says that finding a solution to the urban-rural issue should be a priority to all politicians. However, we should all, both urban and rural Canadians, demand that politicians listen to the will of the people, and not impose their own ill conceived agendas on us! The first step should be the repeal of Bill C-68. Frederick Guse Iroquois, Ontario ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #657 **********************************