From - Wed Oct 28 14:06:49 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA11509; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 06:16:57 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA03635; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 06:02:31 -0600 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 06:02:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199810281202.GAA03635@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #666 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 360c873d00007a0b Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, October 28 1998 Volume 02 : Number 666 In this issue: Re: [humor] Grizzly bears... "GUN REGISTRATION WILL FAIL.., The Aussie version of our CFC Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #663 Cop Who Lost Gun Charged Homicide Rate vs. Gun Control [none] Grandfathering SBH's Thanks for the illustration ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:23:42 -0600 From: lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Subject: Re: [humor] Grizzly bears... >A joke from the western USA states: >------------------ >If you find bear dropping in a trail, how can you tell the difference between >black bear droppings and grizzly droppings? > >The grizzly one have the bells in it. >------------------ > >Explanation to the last one: it was part of urban backpacker's folklore some >years ago that attachings little bells to your gear or boots tell bears that >you are coming and therefore frightens them. Several hikers have been killed >by grizzlies despite this trick. Obviously these folks used "dinner bells".... lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Peace River, Alberta, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:23:20 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: "GUN REGISTRATION WILL FAIL.., PUBLICATION: Calgary Herald DATE: 98.10.27 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: Opinion PAGE: A14 COLUMN: In Rebuttal BYLINE: Robert H. Head, For the Calgary Herald and open debate in your newspaper. If you see anything you'd like to write a rebuttal to, call 235-7377 for information on how to participate. HEADLINE: Gun registration will fail to prevent tragedies: On Sept. 29, Herald columnist Catherine Ford epitomized a gun rally on Parliament Hill as small and banal. Robert Head, a retired assistant commissioner of the RCMP now living in Calgary, has a different impression. As a 38-year veteran of the police service and a life member of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, who happens to be very concerned with gun registration law, I was invited to be a guest speaker at the Ottawa anti-legislation rally of Sept. 22. I am not a hunter or a shooter and I do not belong to any political party, so I trust that my comments were received at face value. Very simply, I explained that while the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and the Canadian Police Association may have endorsed this legislation, their endorsement was not supported by rank and file members (nor by many chiefs and senior officers). I presented survey statistics to back my argument. I mentioned that police on the street are not so naive as to believe the argument that by registering firearms to owners at specific addresses, they would know whether guns existed in residences where complaints were being answered. Many in the police service believe that this legislation will put them in a ``regulatory'' (and confrontational) position and alienate them further from the very people that they are sworn to serve and protect. In my own case, I never once came across a legally possessed handgun or restricted weapon used in an offence. The millions of dollars being committed to registration of rifles and shotguns could be much better spent by increasing police budgets to put more and better equipped personnel on the street, thus making our communities a safer place to live. In her column, Ford goes to great length to embrace Minister of Justice Anne McLellan and place considerable weight on gun-control statistics, which are at best unreliable. She writes of a ``few thousand'' gun supporters. Actually, by police estimates, there were about 20,000 in attendance. I take exception to her elitist comment: ``The sea of plaid and flannel shirts, of sweat pants and protest buttons and Eddie Bauer meets K-Mart; mostly white men and occasional woman brandishing placards proclaiming their right to be free from government interference in their hobby.'' There was a good cross-section of Canada in that audience by gender and by dress. The TV medium seemed to focus on those dressed as hunters/farmers, while avoiding pictures of others wearing suits and ties. As one with deep roots in the business of farming, I have found more often than not that those salt-of-the-earth people have integrity and credibility. Surely Ford should have noticed hundreds of women in the audience, that the co-chair was Linda Thom, an Olympic gold medalist, that Elsie Wayne, interim leader of the Progressive Conservatives made an impassioned speech, that Judith Ross, a professor from the University of Toronto spoke in objection to the legislation, that Senator Ann Cools, a Liberal Senator from Toronto, made an eloquent opposition speech, that Karen Sellick, a Belleville, Ont., lawyer spoke of the bill's intrusion into the lives of law-abiding people and that other women from Quebec introduced honorees and guest speakers. Is that what Ford assumes to be the occasional woman? While this rally was being held, McLellan orchestrated an anti-gun media conference across the street. To make her support for firearms registration more dramatic, she was flanked by a few family members of victims of gun deaths. The TV clips left one with the impression that she was manipulating these victims to further her own cause. Having seen more victims of violence than I care to recall, I have great sympathy for them and for their families. If I thought for one minute that gun registration would do anything to prevent a reoccurrence of those terrible tragedies, I would be its greatest proponent. Sadly, it will fail. Those people with criminal intent will always find a way to meet their goals. Not one of the cases trotted out for McLellan's TV charade would have ended any differently if the guns had been registered. It is often said that when we have a majority government in Canada, between elections we have an absolute dictatorship. In the case of gun registration, that seems to be holding true. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:23:28 -0600 From: "Barry Glasgow" Subject: The Aussie version of our CFC The following excerpt tells me that Justice Departments everywhere are running amok. While searching for faster ways to get criminals back on the streets, they pretend to be doing something about violent crime by passing assinine legislation. This press clipping makes it look like the Aussies have taken to copying Gordon Parry, Jean Valin and James Hayes' brand of crime control.... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fictional TV knife banned The Daily Telegraph 26/10/98 A fictional knife featured in a television show has been added to the State's list of banned weapons. The Firearms Dealers Association has issued a "please explain" to the NSW Government after Premier Bob Carr last week announced the 1998 Weapons Prohibition Bill. Aside from rocket launchers, land mines and studded fighting gloves "ballistic knives" were added to the list of banned weapons. When the association queried what a ballistic knife was - during a debriefing about the new laws - the straight-faced reply from an official from the Police Ministry was they ere not sure, but it once featured on Channel 9's police drama Murder Call. The official then described the curious knife as a weapon which had a shooting blade propelled by elastic bands or a powerful spring. "As you can imagine we were pretty surprised," association vice president Simon Lawrence said. "Collectively those in the room had more than 90 years experience in the weapon dealing industry and we have never heard of it." "It seems someone watched a few Death Wish movies, a few episodes of Murder Call and a Charlie Chan feature and created this list." "A knife with an aerodynamic flying blade propelled by a elastic band - it just doesn't exist." A spokeswoman said That NSW Police had advised a ballistic knife did really exist but it was not known if one had ever been found. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Barry Glasgow Woodlawn, Ont. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:23:24 -0600 From: Jim Davies Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #663 On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: > Subject: Re: Why did we vote Liberal? > > The problem I and others I know is not Reform, but the projected view > Mr Manning gives us of Adolph and the Iron fist. So it is better to support Chretin who IS Adolph and the iron fist instead of Manning, who MAY be? Only in Canada you say? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:30:02 -0600 From: Mark L Horstead Subject: Cop Who Lost Gun Charged >From the 27 October Toronto Sun: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 Cop's gun makes rounds By IAN ROBERTSON, TORONTO SUN A 16-year-old Scarborough boy is charged with having been in possession of a Toronto cop's stolen handgun, which police say is still "being handed around" on the street. York Regional Police Const. Peter Fleming said yesterday two standard-issue "controlled expansion" bullets were seized at the 16-year-old's home. "We anticipate there are several other live rounds with the weapon," he said. Police have been unable to find the 14-shot, .40-calibre Glock semi-automatic, which two Markham schoolboys wrestled from an officer's son who took it to school. "We now know who the boy is who grabbed it; and we know where it went next," Fleming said. "We're not looking to charge individuals who find it," Sgt. John Sheldon said, but it's a criminal offence not to turn in the gun. A 32 Division officer is charged with careless storage of a firearm. His son is charged with theft and weapons charges. Meanwhile, a teen was suspended from Central Etobicoke High School for 20 days yesterday after a classmate called police when the 17-year-old produced a pellet gun. The gun was seized but the youth was not charged. "The kid wasn't waving it around or threatening anybody," police said. Well, that answers an earlier question - he WAS charged. I suppose now that we should try and get his lawyer in touch with the NFA. Yes, I've got mixed opinions about doing so, but if it helps the guy we'll probably make a couple more friends where it might do some good. Mark L Horstead If it saves just one person from voting lieberal, it's worth it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 06:02:00 -0600 From: "Joel Patriquen" Subject: Homicide Rate vs. Gun Control It's been reported in our wonderful media that homicide rates are at there lowest in thirty years. When will THEY ask the question, "WHY MORE GUN CONTROL?". How can the Government push more gun control down our thoats now? Joel P.S. Apologies to the politicians for thinking logicaly! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 06:02:11 -0600 From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: [none] Jim Dowdell [SMTP:jdowdell@telusplanet.net Subject: Final Stand Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca I returned from the Fedup II rally thoroughly disillusioned with our system of government. If 30 thousand plus demonstrators mean no more to our government than "The debate is over." then the justice minister must be right and the DEBATE is over. But the war has just begun! In reality the gang of bullies, thugs and thieves (AKA "right honorable ?" (yeah)) are our masters only as long as we _follow_ the laws they write. What happens when we do not? If all seven million gun owners refused to follow this law our government would be laughed right into the history books! Think of the simple beauty of this scenario, the government passes a law that nobody obeys, that is what I call a non confidence vote. But in the real world we are Canadian sheep. We bleat when the government doesn't shear us close enough. We believe in the power of CLOG. We watch our core values ripped to shreds by our elite masters. We shrug off injustice and excess bullying by the masters we pay. We continue to elect "Da Liddle Dick Tator" because we are too dumb to see through our government controlled media bias. We are lost. Seven million Canadian sheep will comply with the law shoved down their throats and register. I do not address those sheep here, all gun owners beaten by CLOG stop reading here, if I offend you- too bad. To those of you who are prepared to fight for your freedom, read on. By all that is moral or right there is no sin in disobeying an unjust law. Ask any post WW2 German citizen. The anarchy is not in the disobedience but in the passing of such laws. We must rein in our out of control government. I will go public and refuse to ask my government's permission to continue to own property that I have owned for more than 30 years. I have no intention of burying or hiding my property. I will not register 1 gun thus giving legitimacy to an obscene law. I will not try to sink the Titanic by obeying the _letter_ of the law (I do understand why some gun owners MUST go this route- good luck). I value my freedom greatly but if society chooses to jail me for not registering my guns then I suspect that I will freer in jail than on the outside continuing to produce for the masters. I will openly declare in public on Jan 1 2001 that I refuse to follow any part of C68. That I will continue to own and peacefully use my property. That no government agency has the right to remove my property from my possession. That if the government is to confiscate my possessions they will have to do so by force with no assistance from me. I will do this in full knowledge of the penalty by law- 10 years in jail. (do I then still have to register my guns when I get out of jail or do I get another 10 for still not registering?). I am sure that if this is what our country wants then I am on the right side of the bars. But at least a jury of my peers will be putting me in jail with full knowledge of what they are doing. MY Canada does not include such people. And I believe that there are thousands of people in this country that still strongly support freedom to live. I believe that these people have the courage to take this stand with me. There can be safety in numbers so if thousands of us take this Final Stand, stand together with mutual support, in effect fight a class action criminal case? In this scenario of Regina against us 10,000 refusenicks, will this government have the guts to put us ALL in jail. I think most bullies have no guts. Let us see. I heard on talk radio Friday (AM 770 Rutherford show Calgary) a caller who told Rutherford that he was part of a group in Rocky Mountainhouse (?) that has decided to not register under C68. He was going to send an information pack to Rutherford but he didn't say too much more except that this is a highly organized group. I will follow up on this. Also 3 separate people I talked to at the FU2 rally insisted that they would not register their guns. There are many more out there and I intend to gather them all together into a common front. It will take courage and it may get rough , but I sense that many of you reading this today are onside with this idea. Think about what kind of country you want to live in. If the decent Germans had done this before the war then the world would be a different place today. If you value freedom more than order then let's get together- email me at jdowdell@telusplanet.net . Some quotes for inspiration: "To know what is right, and not do it, is the worst form of cowardice." Confucius "The right to own and bear arms is the [canary in the coal mine] for all of our other freedoms. A government that does not trust it's lawful free citizen's with arms is a government that cannot be trusted." DAT "Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience,..." John Locke,2nd Treatise of Government "The rights of a free people precede the powers of the state. We do not have such rights as the state sees fit to give us. The state has such powers as we see fit to give it." ?? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson "And we have seen that these rights consist, primarily, in the free enjoyment of personal security, of personal liberty, and of private property. So long as these remain inviolate, the subject is perfectly free;for every species of compulsive tyranny and oppression must act in opposition to one or other of these rights." Sir William Blackstone, British common law, commentaries 1786 "The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." Henry St.George Tucker, in Blackstone's 1768 "Commentaries on the Laws of England." "I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law so much as for the right." Henry David Thoreau "One of the ordinary modes by which tyrants accomplish their purpose, without resistance, is by disarming the people and making it an offense to keep arms". Joseph Story, U.S. Supreme Court Justice "The ideal citizen, of a tyrannical state, is the man or woman who bows in silent obedience in exchange for the status of a well-cared-for herd animal. Thinking people become the tyrant's greatest enemy." (Claire Wolfe) We are free not because we claim freedom, but because we practice it. William Faulkner "It's true that the judgement of what firearms should be prohibited will be decided by the government of the day - and shouldn't it be that way?" Justice Minister Allan Rock, the Globe and Mail, 1 Dec 94. Finally: "There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people." Vice-President Hubert Humphrey, May 1, 1965 Jim Dowdell Pincher Creek AB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 06:02:21 -0600 From: Peter Cronhelm Subject: Grandfathering SBH's I heard an interesting rumour today regarding the grandfathering for SBH's. It is possible the feds will simply grandfather those of us who have purchased cheepo Alan Rock specials. Thus we would be allowed to keep the firearm in question but would be restricted from purchasing any further SBH's. This would kind of defeat operation bite back to a certain degree. On a related subject. Once a firearm is grandfathered as a SBH, is it possible to simply fit a longer barrel and then sell the gun to a person not grandfathered? Peter Cronhelm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 06:02:29 -0600 From: David Leskowski Subject: Thanks for the illustration Gordon, Thanks for the quick illustration. Gun Powder has made you stupid. Let me summarize your twisted thinking; you are willing to let the Liberals rob me & my children, and my children's children of their civil liberties, because of .....let's see what was that terrible evil you were more afraid of.....Oh, yes, you were offended that someone asked you to make the Reform Party a beneficiary in your will. Hmmm. Someone at a church once asked me to do this...Didn't interfere with my opinion of Jesus Christ. Come on, now Gordon. Be honest with us. You are among friends and CSIS who monitors this internet site...You probably just don't like Preston Manning's hairdo. That's it, really, isn't it? Come clean, too, Gordon. I'll bet you DID vote Liberal last time...you mentioned the devil, didn't you. Let me make this very fine but important point one more time for all the wonderful Gordons out there. If we continue to split our vote 3 or 4 ways, the majority continues to lose to the minority. As Queen Victoria once advised all the blushing women in the empire, "close your eyes and think of your country"...can you do this for us, Gordon? On behalf of the Reform Party of Canada, let me officially make amends for that terrible person who offended you so much...we don't care what you do after you are dead. While you are alive, however, learn to divide. Please. In regards to another possible "devil you know", next federal election, just who do you recommend we all vote for? Have you caught on by now that WE ALL DO NEED TO VOTE THE SAME WAY TO WIN !!!!! Please let me know, so we can discuss the REAL policies of the NDP, and the PC's on Gun Control...Do you favour the PC's? I thought Kim Campbell was a Tory....and what was their adviser's name....is he still around?....Oh! silly me ! Hugh is running for the Leadership of the Party today!!! And I guess the Tory Senators were REALLY reined in when they threatened to vote for C-68...Oh, silly me again, I guess they DID vote for it. Of course, the PC's caucus gave them heat for that. No....they didn't?? Well I tell you, nobody was more surprised than me that they didn't stick to their guns during their temporary, vote-grabbing flip-flop. Nobody that hung with the big BM could possibly act in their own interest. If I may, let me answer for any objections readers may have about the Reform Party. Think of me as one of those bright orange Skeets flying through cyberspace...can you hit me? Here is a little about myself, in case you want to know why I think I can comment on this topic. My family came from Russia; dyed in the wool communists. I am first generation Canadian; during the depression, when my father lost the farm, one .250-3000 Savage rifle and 20 dead moose kept the family name alive. Somehow, we still ended up clinging to the NDP for all it was worth...closest thing to Socialism here. I worked for several NDP governments; only began to get a little disillusioned with them when I was told to refer to Alan Blakeny as GOD, and found out that "Animal Farm" was a true story. Disgusted with Socialism, I went out and started a business. I even converted to Tory, and helped Grant Divine win an election. Our constituency beat Roy Romanow that year. Too bad all the guys from the Party are in Jail now.....Voted for Brian Mulroney twice, and after his fiscal mess, and Kim Campbell's gun laws, there is very little I am more ashamed of admitting. We have had Liberal MP's in the family, and I have heard all that I need to about them. Cretien, Rock & Replacement continue to show us what they are all about. When I lived in Saskatchewan, I participated in forming the Reform Party. The great debate about extending Reform eastward was going on, and I moved to Ontario at the same time Reform did. The Party is still being formed as we speak; going east is changing it. It benefits from everyone who joins and participates in the pursuit of democracy. The Party will even be better off if YOU join, Gordon. Perhaps you could lead the other amatuers in the fundraising area, and find out that none of this is easy. So what is the problem....I'm sure everyone knows by now that there were White Supremecists and vocal racists "planted" into the Reform Party in order to discredit the movement. The gov't of the day was involved. Eveyone knows that you can't learn about Reform through the media, because they have already developed vested interests in the Liberal, PC, and NDP parties....it will be a while before there is any balance. Seriously, folks, there is no alternative. I don't like everything about the Reform Party. I just believe that the most democratic option is the best. I also like the fact that Reform has put policies like the repeal of C-68 into writing. I also happen to believe that the policies, which end up in the party due to members's support, are real policies which will be acted upon. Send your questions along. Let's get serious about our politics now, so we can get to work when the next writ drops. We can win this thing. The Liberals don't have a majority. If we beat ourselves again during the next election, it will be someone's fault, and his name is Gordon. David Leskowski. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #666 **********************************