From - Thu Nov 26 09:47:55 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (majordomo@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13447; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:17:44 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05349; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:05:25 -0600 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:05:25 -0600 Message-Id: <199811261405.IAA05349@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #716 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 360c873d00009454 Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, November 26 1998 Volume 02 : Number 716 In this issue: pepper! 85% of gun owners supprot registration anti-gun billboard Re: Backfire seen if gun owners delay registering Just became verifier, found out something GOOD CFC and all their men Toronto police firearms unit worker pleads guilty Loosie Looney service rifle match National Post headline of 23 Nov 98 Questions : Purchasing Firearms at Gunshows after Dec 1. Canadian Press Article And you thought it only happened here! Re: FAC - THIS DESERVES WIDE AND EARLY CIRCULATION Re: Digest #713 --Search & Seizure ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:27:56 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: pepper! Stopped in for a coffee with some of the local scoundrels today. Conversation mostly about the last weekend of the hunting season . The someone brought up Christmas . Someone else mentioned C 68. When the cursing died down replaced by laughter I was really interested. Seems some of the guys decided to send gifts to Anne McLellan and Jean Cretien. I was shocked - till listening carefully I finally broke out laughing too! Get this! These scoundrels have been taping those little pepper packets to bricks - wrapping then caregully and addressing them to Anne McLellan and Jean Cretien with (MP) behind their names and Parliament Buildings, Ottawa as the address - then dropping them in post offices etc in the out mail boxes. Needles to say I was shocked at this behaviour! Who would do such a thing- it would cause nothing but trouble and embarrassement to the Government. Jeez what kind of friends do I have anyway? Later , walking through the mall I remembered a little pile of bricks in my back yard. I hardly paused passing the condiments in the mall and stuck a small handful of the pepper packets in my pocket . Yes who indeed I wondered remembering the left over freezer wrap at home. Yes who indeed! Merry Christmas Anne and Jean -hohohohohoho! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:28:00 -0600 From: "Jules Sobrian" Subject: 85% of gun owners supprot registration I am now back from deer and moose hunting, refreshed, rejuvenated and ready to fight. Norm Ovenden of the Journal Ottawa Bureau, in #714 really amuses me. In the first place any advice from Wendy Cukier surely must be in our best interest, so I am about to fill up my tank and head down to the post office to do her bidding. After talking to dozens of hunters from all over Ontario for the last month and a half, I have yet to speak to one who intends to register any of his firearms. To me that sounds like 100% against but then my name isn't Angus Reid. Jules. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:28:11 -0600 From: Alexander Ball Subject: anti-gun billboard You may be interested to know that the International Fund for Animal Welfare has purchased a large billboard on Main Street in Hamilton. It shows a side view of a rifle with the caption "the PC government voted to put guns in the hands of children". This is in reference to the Ontario government's change to the hunting law that allows 13 year-olds to purchase a hunting licence PROVIDED that they pass the hunter safety course. As you are probably aware, this provincial law has nothing to do with gun legislation, which is a federal matter. It is NOT legal for any child (under 18 yrs) to purchase or even be in temporary unsupervised possession of a firearm by federal law. Any person between 12 and 18 may only handle a firearm UNDER THE DIRECT SUPERVISION OF THE FAC HOLDER. That means that if a person under 18 holds a valid hunting licence, they must be accompanied by an adult who will share and supervise the use of the firearm. The intent of the billboard is to shock the public into thinking something that is not true. I would encourage you to contact the IFAW, Suite 400, 410 Bank Street, Ottawa, Ontario, K2P 1Y8, (613) 233 8458, FAX 233-9602) and demand that the misleading billboard be removed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:42:49 -0600 From: Peter Kearns Subject: Re: Backfire seen if gun owners delay registering Quote from Edmonton Journal 22/11/98 > "If they delay until the last minute, it's an advantage to the feds," > says Wendy Cukier, head of the Coalition for Gun Control. "In some ways, > the more problematic thing would probably be if every gun owner in the > country registered on the very first day." > More than 300 new employees have been hired by the RCMP and the Canadian > Firearms Centre. Starting from scratch, they're supposed to smoothly run > a complicated, innovative process with an unproven methodology to check, > over time, more than seven million rifles and shotguns of different > makes, models and descriptions. An early deluge could have flooded it, > Cukier says. Peter Kearns wrote: Wendy (and Idle Annnie) obviously believe that all gun owners are bumbling easily manipulated simpletons. We must make the newly hired staff sit and do nothing until the very last minute, rather than allowing them to practice on a trickle of registrations....... then (if C68 still exists) swamp them!! When will poor Wendy learn that having a doctorate in economics doesn't mean you are intelligent in all matters, or that people are gullible enough to believe she is telling the truth at last...... I think the only "backfire" Wendy will ever experience is after her friend Annie has been eating beans. She did forget and lapse into an unplanned spell of truthfulness.... Notice she accepts there are over 7 million firearms in Canada now? She previously always disputed the NFA estimate, and now she is using it.. Oh dear, Tomlinson was right....... they may be paid with our tax dollars but they sure as hell aren't too bright! regards, Peter Kearns Simon says: When Annie has to trot out her paid pet propagandist to attempt to dupe firearms owners into early registration, it shows how desperate our Ottawa masters are becoming. We are making a difference. We are winning..... > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:42:54 -0600 From: Andy Krywonizka Subject: Just became verifier, found out something GOOD Took the verifier's course yesterday because my father was going, and he invited me along. Was kinda boring, but I got this cool CD-ROM with lotsa neat pictures. ;-) I did find out something good about C-68 though that some of you might not be aware of. As it stands, to register a restricted firearm you must apply for the green slip and wait the customary 6 weeks to 6 months. With C-68 starting in a few days, you go to buy your restricted firearm, if it's verified you call up the CFC, tell them a few things, give them your Visa number for the $25 fee (which is the bad part), and they give you an authorization number. You then walk out that same day, with your newly acquired restricted firearm. That number they gave you is your Authorization to Transport. Neat, eh? I'm definitely against registering all my guns and having to pay this $25 processing fee, but I definitely like this idea of being able to take my new toy home that same day! Good shooting, Andy K. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:42:58 -0600 From: "Ross" Subject: CFC and all their men I just love reading Valin and Rousseau in their diatribes on how this new system for registry will work. I can just imagine all these highly trained and paid people in Miramichi waiting for registration forms to come in. If we do not register for the next four years, will the government keep all these staffers on the payroll? Of course we could keep them all busy by taking their forms, putting them in a big box (full of bricks) and sending it COD to them. I found a registration form hanging in the bulletin board of a Zellers store, don't know how it got there, but no one seems inclined to take it down. It appears that some people are hogging all the application forms from my post office, they always seem to be out. The postal person I have spoken to says they cannot keep them in stock fast enough, most people are asking for 10-25 forms at a time. You dont think all those forms are going to be used to send pepper packets to Jean do you? Perhaps these same registration envelopes might also be sent to the RCMP commissioner as a reminder of the 250 million dollars being spent on this new registry , while his beloved Regina Depot gets closed down. It would clearly show that the RCMP were backing the wrong horse (pardon the pun) when they got into bed with Rock, and Annie on gun control. Of course little did they know that such backing would take away from their fight on organized crime, and training more Pepper Spray Hosers. Policing and politics dont mix. Either be a cop, or be a political fart catcher, but not both. J. R. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:43:07 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: Toronto police firearms unit worker pleads guilty From: Steven Kendrick/UK Subject: CS: Legal-Toronto police firearms unit worker pleads guilty From: CILA, INTERNET:teebee@sprint.ca Subject: "POLICE GUN UNIT WORKER PLEADS GUILTY" PUBLICATION: The Toronto Star DATE: 98.11.24 EDITION: Metro SECTION: NEWS PAGE: B3 BYLINE: John Duncanson POLICE UNIT WORKER PLEADS GUILTY: The end nears in guns-for-profit scandal that rocked force The guns-for-profit scandal that has rocked the Toronto force for the past 18 months is drawing to a close with the sudden guilty plea of the last of the five civilian workers implicated in the illegal sale of guns. Fernando Dimaano, 52, received a conditional discharge from Mr. Justice Ted Wren after he pleaded guilty yesterday to possession of a prohibited weapon as part of a plea bargain. Even though the four knives weren't directly linked to the scandal at the police firearms unit, they were found in Dimaano's home in March of last year by Internal Affairs investigators probing allegations that guns earmarked for destruction were being sold illegally. Dimaano was one of five civilian employees later charged by Internal Affairs, but was the last one to have his court case completed. The former head of the unit, retired police sergeant Paul Mullin, pleaded guilty to breach of trust last month and was given a suspended sentence. Three other clerks caught in the scandal lost their jobs after admitting to lesser roles in the illegal activity at the unit. Two of them are appealing their dismissals before a labour arbitration board. Because all five have had their criminal cases resolved without trial, a long list of potential witnesses - including police brass - won't have to testify as to what they knew about serious problems at the unit. = It's not known whether Dimaano, who has spent 25 years with the force, will be fired now that he has admitted to owning three illegal butterfly knives and a fourth knife, described as a punching knife or push dagger. Even though Dimaano was not found guilty of any crimes connected to the illegal sales, crown attorney Aimee Gauthier outlined several transactions he took part in, including one that netted Dimaano $725. An audit revealed that the unit as a whole was operating with poor internal controls' While searching Dimaano's house, Internal Affairs detectives also found a phone, a case and a magazine that belonged to the firearms unit. Dimaano was originally charged with breach of trust in connection with the sales. But because he's not a public official, the charge was dismissed. Gauthier also told the Ontario Court, general division judge that an audit was conducted on the firearms unit, which ``revealed many shortcomings in the way the unit was operating.'' ``The audit revealed that the unit as a whole was operating with poor internal controls, a lack of written processes, and substandard record keeping practices,'' Gauthier said. Dimaano's lawyer, Harry Black, said his client was ``unaware'' that possessing the knives, three of which he had brought back with him from the Philippines, was a crime. Black said the past 18 months had been hard on Dimaano and his family because he has been suspended without pay from his $36,000-a-year job and now faces the prospect of being fired. ``He always considered himself a conscientious, industrious, loyal and very competent employee of the firearms unit,'' Black said. Dimaano didn't come to Canada from the Philippines 27 years ago ``to become a criminal,'' Black added. As part of his sentencing, Dimaano was placed on probation for a year and must do community service. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:54:59 -0600 From: "James Bachynsky" Subject: Loosie Looney service rifle match Due to personal problems, I was unable to attend the Calgary service rifle match. The take from Edmonton was $20. I will forward the cheque to the NFA today. Now that the rifle season is over I will start on the indoor practical pistol shooters. James ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:55:07 -0600 From: "Robin Leech" Subject: National Post headline of 23 Nov 98 A friend gave me a copy of the Monday, 23 Nov 98 issue of the National Post. A centre-page headline on page A1 reads, "American cities sue gun makers for crime costs", with a subtitle of "Inspired by huge tobacco settlement", and article by Patrick Graham. Here is some of the text and quotations from it: "Inspired by successful lawsuits against tobacco companies, U.S. municipalities have begun actions aimed at forcing gun manufacturers to compensate them for costs arising from criminal violence. "In some cases, the same lawyers who recently extracted a $206-billion settlement from the tobacco industry have been engaged to pursue the actions. ... "In 1997, there were 570 murders caused by firearms in Chicago, most by handguns. In the last decade, Chicago police have confiscated and destroyed 175,866 handguns, even though it is illegal to possess or sell handguns in the city." And Red Annie and her crew expect to de-gun criminals by de-gunning the honest citizens? This is crazy. Look at those Chicago stats: that is an average of 17,587 handguns collected per year in a city that is not supposed to have any in it. I think that the feds have bitten off far more than they can chew, but are not willing to cut their losses and leave. They will continue to amass losses without reason or logic - just pure political whim and will. Robin Leech ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:55:13 -0600 From: "Thomas Zinck" Subject: Questions : Purchasing Firearms at Gunshows after Dec 1. CFC: Can you tell me what the process is for purchasing a sporting rifle (non-restricted) at a Gunshow once C-68 comes into effects (as planned for Dec 1) ? I beleive that the process is something like the following : 1. I purshase the firearms (after showing my FAC) 2. I call a 1-800 number (manned on Sunday's ?) for approval for Transfer, and pay the $25 fee 3. Once approved, I take the firearm home Questions : 1. Does a non-restricted firearm for sale at a gunshow, from a private citizen, need to be registered ? 2. Can I get approval for the purcahse and take the firearm home the same day ? 3. How can I get forms for the transfer ? 4. Who do I pay the $25 to ? 5. Can the purchase be completed before I get approval for the transfer ? 6. Will this firearm, if not already registered by the previous owner, have to be verified ? 7. Will Government Verifiers be available at each gunshow ? I have read the Regulations and the Law, but I need clarification on how this purchase can take place. I look forward to your response, as there are a number of gunshow I am planning to attend right after Dec 1. Regards, Tom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:55:17 -0600 From: "D.J. Udle" Subject: Canadian Press Article Did anyone read the article in their local papers about the enforcement of Bill C 68? Statistics were quoted using a graph showing how many crimes were committed using firearms...yes firearms. I wonder if the graph should have used HANDGUNS. I found it very misleading. I asked my wife to read the article and her first impression of the information is that she will be safer if firearms are registered. Although she knows the difference and is a supporter of the NFA, she wonders how many other people read it the same way. Not enough people know the ramifications of Bill C 68 and what it will mean to future bills that are passed by future governments. People don't seem to read much anymore or only read what is direclty in front of them, or what the government wants us to read. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:55:25 -0600 From: CILA Subject: And you thought it only happened here! Police accused of stealing buy-back weapons Nov. 23rd, 1998 - Australia HUNDREDS of weapons handed in during the guns buy-back scheme have allegedly been stolen by NSW police officers and passed to criminal gangs or turned in again for money. The Australian Federal Police have launched an investigation after audits revealed buy-back guns earmarked for destruction had either gone missing,been handed in twice, or found back on the streets. The Daily Telegraph has learned the secret AFP investigation, code named Task Force Majorca, was launched after the Defence Department's Special Investigation Branch uncovered widespread theft and corruption involving military weapons and explosive stocks. State police forces have been ordered to provide any assistance the AFP may require. When the AFP launched its inquiry in May, the NSW and Victorian internal affairs departments had already begun looking into the discovery of weapons which should have been destroyed and the police management of the scheme. Among the allegations being investigated by the AFP are: Guns sent to Port Kembla for destruction from NSW police armouries later found during raids on the homes of criminals; The duplication of serial numbers of weapons handed in. Police officers are suspected of removing weapons from the guns buy-back scheme and making money from handing them in again themselves or through third parties at mobile rural gun buy- back centres. A 1996 anonymous threat to shoot up Cabramatta police station with a .50 calibre machine gun confirmed stolen sometime earlier from the Defence National Storage and Distribution Facility (DNSDC) at Moorebank; Weapons confiscated in Somalia by the Australian Army in 1992 and brought back for destruction have gone missing from a Sydney wharf; Weapons missing from the DNSDC at Moorebank later found being used by motorcycle and criminal gangs. There are also allegations that personnel at police and military armouries had manufactured weapons from spare parts to make money from the cash-back scheme launched by the Federal Government in 1996 after the Port Arthur massacre. Dozens of police and military personnel have been interviewed but no charges yet laid. The AFP and Army and Defence Minister John Moore refused to comment on the issue for "operational reasons". A spokesman for Justice Minister Amanda Vanstone yesterday confirmed Majorca was still continuing. "The AFP became involved early May when they were asked to provide assistance in an inquiry which was already ongoing in the defence forces," the spokesman said. "The AFP is currently assisting and as is the case with all ongoing matters nothing more can be said." A NSW police spokesman confirmed NSW officers had investigated missing weapons early on in the handing back scheme. But they could not confirm their own officers were being investigated. Police sources said the AFP and SIB investigations had been made difficult by the poor counting of weapons stocks held. They said both military and civilian police who had investigated earlier thefts in the mid-1990s with no real results, were also being investigated. The investigation is expected to take some time because police have to cross-check hundreds of thousands of weapon serial numbers. According to official figures, more than 650,000 weapons had been handed back in by the community at a cost of about $315 million. The Federal Government set aside $500 million - taken from a rise in the Medicare levy - to pay for the scheme. - -------------------------------------------- For more information contact: Canadian Institute for Legislative Action P.O.Box 82578, 285 Taunton Rd. E. Oshawa, ON. L1G 7E6 Ph: (905) 571-2150 Fax: (905) 436-7721 e-mail: teebee@sprint.ca Home: http://www.cila.org A proud member of the World Forum on the Future of Sport Shooting Activities ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:57:29 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: FAC - THIS DESERVES WIDE AND EARLY CIRCULATION >After work today I went over to the police station and requested renewal of >my FAC. Again I was asked for the expiry date. When I told the clerk that >it expired Jan. of next year, I was again told they could only renew FAC's >that expired this month. I smiled at her and explained that "safety" was >the only reason that an FAC renewal may be refused. >Argument ended. She asked me to wait while she spoke to the sergeant. >After a 10 -15 min. wait I was called to the counter and presented with the >application form. No further discussion. I thanked them for their help >and headed for the local gun store to spread the word. Several people will >be renewing tomorrow. >Again, thanks for your help. Your information has been copied and >circulated. Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:04:04 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: Re: Digest #713 --Search & Seizure Problems concerning firearms and the Police that I have knowledge of always involve Policemen born outside Western Canada. Policemen born in the West usually don't over react to the sight of a person with a rifle. Possible this is why Ottawa will not recruit Westerners anymore? With the exception of Natives of course! The last two Policemen I have encountered in the hunting area were Natives - they did not even ask why we had firearms etc. They know a person with a gun in a hunting area is most likely hunting! In contrast we ran into a checkpoint near High Prairie manned by RCMPolice from Quebec who acted like we were on the way to a bank robbery - although it was probably 90 miles to the nearest bank and we were going the opposite way. The firearms were stored in a locked camper - properly - but we were forced to allow them entry. Even knowing they were wrong it was easier to permit this illegal search than resist it. A complaint filed later brought a 'sort' of apology from their boss! Gordon ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #716 **********************************