From - Mon Nov 30 10:21:40 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11728; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 08:13:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01290; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:57:25 -0600 Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:57:25 -0600 Message-Id: <199811291357.HAA01290@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #721 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: O X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 360c873d00009772 Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, November 29 1998 Volume 02 : Number 722 In this issue: Canada Customs and Musgraves Reregistering restricted firearms Verifier Complaint Letter To my Friends South of the Border Re: pepper spray ban recinded Re-Registering Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #717 Provincial CFO Contacts/ a dealer dialer update IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT Liberals fire a blank with Bill C-68 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:47:54 -0600 From: Ken Pisichko Subject: Canada Customs and Musgraves In August '98 I had a shipment of Musgrave RSA actions seized by Canada Customs (they called it detention) after I paid all sales taxes and duties. I thus could not take them to the shoot at Connaught. It took three weeks to get them back. It took the forensic lab that long to affirm my protests that these actions were not capable of handling 50 BMG, and that they were not handguns, and that they were non-restricted rifle actions. In the process 4 of the 5 were scratched. Customs said 'tough' when I said that I wanted my damages and expenses paid for. Yesterday, I paid for the duties and taxes for 2 Musgrave actions sent from Scotland. The box was still sealed - as when it left Britain. The real funny thing was that I was NOT asked for our beloved FAC: the little gem of government paper that allows Canadians to acquire a firearm legally in this country. Wonder why they did not bother asking for the FAC when they are required to do so by our gun-control bureaucracy? People have been charged by this bureaucracy when they sold a firearm to someone without actually seeing the original. [for the casual reader, rest assured that the Canadian Firearms Center has a subscription to the cdn-firearms-digest - a list which is getting a copy of this situation report. They will definitely be reding these commnts. Big brother has been documented in the Canadian community. We even have occasional e-mails from them to the CFD list. Do you Yanks know if BATF reads this list? ] Such a fuss the previous time, and a real "who cares" attitude now. God only knows what I could have had in that box? God only knows what is actually in that box! It still is not opened. The labels say that there are two Musgrave RSA actions in it, but what if there are not! Last time Canada Customs decided to do the forensic lab routine. Wonder why they did not even open the box this time? In all honesty, I had to sent a letter to Scotland confirming that I would not use these actions for chemical, nuclear nor biological warfare. As Dr. Kolbe said (and I paraphrase): They want assurance that you are not going to build a nuclear bomb out of these actions. Not out of these two I won't! However, maybe a cosmetically scratched one that I am keeping as evidence for litigation could be used after the litigation. Anyone have plans for building one ;-) They say that Popular Mechanics or Popular Science had plans for nuclear bombs years ago. Any ideas? I will let you know later if the "black pyjama types" come a-knockin' in the middle of the night. I'll even let you know if they offered me any plans (and the cost)! Enough of this stuff. The bureaucrats whose salaries I pay with my tax $$ have ticked me off so much that I think I'll go and do something useful: rake the leaves off the lawn. Hank and I have experienced Winnipeg for a week without snow - in November yet! Fancy that. A real nice change from the usual November in Winnipeg. Ken in "The Heart of the Continent" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:49:01 -0600 From: Peter Cronhelm Subject: Reregistering restricted firearms Someone wrote: > As far as re-registering, that is just for " confirming that > the CFC records are correct." And we can do that, if we like, by > picking up a regitration form, filling it out, and sending it in at no > charge to me. There will be a charge to me, a stamp. I THINK NOT!! If > the CFC's records are fucked up, that is their problem and I will not > voluntarily help them to fix their problems. Actually it would be better if you did reregister your restricted firearms. They already know you have them. I would suggest that you mark the "frame only" box on the form and send it in with everything else marked unknown. Then scream VERIFIER at the CFC. Seeing as they have none this will make their lives difficult and that is what we are all about. Peter Cronhelm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:48:57 -0600 From: Peter Cronhelm Subject: Verifier Complaint Letter The following is a little letter which everyone can use to send to their favourite verifying dealer. Remember if we insist that our dealers not be verifiers then we have to ensure that we do not break down and resume shopping at a verifying dealer. From now on I will be purchasing from a much smaller store but a store which doesn't verify. Insert name of Verifier or Gun store Here. It has come to my attention that you (or your store) is collaborating with the federal government on the implementation of the abusive new firearms law bill C68. The aim of this piece of legislation is to remove our rights to lawfully own and use firearms and to shut down stores such as yours. Therefore, for your own good, I will refuse to spend a penny in your store and I will encourage friends and acquaintances to do the same, until you rectify this situation. Without verifiers the firearms registry cannot function. Appeasement has never worked to discourage bullies and supplying free verification services for the federal government is nothing more than appeasement. If the government requires that firearms be verified and they cannot supply verifiers then there is no force of law for any sales which may be conducted at this time. By supplying an unpaid verification service you are letting our federal tormentors off this very large hook. A hook which the Recreational Firearms Community could use to hang the liberal government and their ill conceived bill C68. Sincerely, Insert name here. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:47:45 -0600 From: Donna Ferolie Subject: To my Friends South of the Border NEW U.S GUN LAW PUNISHES LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS While trapshooting at the Ohio Grand this summer I was stung with the new anti-alien gun law whereby non residents are unable to purchase a firearm, unless they have been residing in the states for 90 days. This is only scratching the surface of what is to come. As far as I am concerned the new U.S gun laws are harsher that C68 - see for yourself, as the following new law which is another takeoff on the Brady Bill comes into effect November 30/98. Writer Tom Strother has reported the following: The U.S federal government National Instant Criminal Background Check System will open for business on November 30 in all 50 states. It requires a background check before a consumer is allowed to purchase any type of gun. Worse yet, the purchaser is required to pay for the service - $ 14 to be exact. So what does the new system mean for typical gun owner in America ? Basically, additional $ 14 charge and potentially the denial of a purchase should the federal government's " data base " show any hint of abnormality in a person's character. The check according to the FBI, is expected to take only a matter of minutes. The criterion for approval, however, is not nearly as clear cut. ANY OF THE FOLLOWING OFFENSES IN A PERSON'S RECORD WILL PREVENT THEIR PURCHASE OF A GUN: 1. Conviction in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year. 2. Being a fugitive from justice. 3. Being unlawful user of a controlled substance. 4. Having been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution. 5. Being an illegal alien. 6. having been dishonorably discharged from the United States armed services. 7. Having been subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking or threatening an intimate partner or child of the partner. 8. Having renounced U.S citizenship. 9. Having been convicted in court of any misdemeanor crime of domestic violence. More insulting is that, as with most federal programs, the burden of proof in any " pending " case will rest with the purchaser. Once the " pending " status us entered, the purchaser will have three days to submit documentation proving otherwise or be issued an automatic denial. More staggering is the cost of the program to the American people. According to the FBI data, the system will cost $ 96.6 million dollars this year to operate. Fittingly, the cost is passed on to the consumer by way of the processing fee. The short term solution is simple for gun owners or those who wish to own a firearm: Make your purchase before Nov. 30. Long term however, the answers aren't clear. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For those Canadian who think will be an easier ride by jumping the border with their firearms - think again ! The international firearm community is under attack !!!!!!! Donna Ferolie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:48:38 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: pepper spray ban recinded >At 01:05 PM 11/26/1998 -0600, you wrote: >>Under pressure from women's groups and the firearms community the >>Federal Government has deferred its proposed regulation to ban pepper >>spray in containers of less than 224 grams. >>The regulation enacted on Sept. 23, '98, was to come into force on Dec. >>1, '98, maintains the same provisions regarding pepper spray as is found >>in Prohibited Weapons Order No. 1. In essence therefore the law remains >>unchanged. >I'm a little thick today, sorry, this says the ban is still in place?? The regulation says that Mace is a "prohibited weapon" and any other similar substance is a "prohibited weapon" IF it is for use against humans -- but NOT if it is to protect the possessor from attacks by vicious animals. Go figure. A woman can carry pepper spray to defend herself from attack by a nasty dachshund, but not to defend herslf from attack by a murdering rapist. Idle Annie McLellan apparently does not think she can be trusted to protect herself from a MAN... She can, however, carry it to protect herself from weinerdogs -- and USE it on the rapist who attacks her, LEGALLY -- because it was not a "prohibited weapon" UNTIL she was attacked, and then she had the right to use ANYTHING she could get her hands on under the doctrine of necessity. The law is the law. It may have its perversions... Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:49:07 -0600 From: "Moore Vision" Subject: Re-Registering This is just some information that I have found about re-registering previously registered firearms. I am making no suggestion what to do or not to do. I will leave that up to the thee NFA to comment on. The form says that all firearms must be re-registered by January 1,2003. In box 16 of the form you have to check off the purpose for having the restricted firearms or prohibited handguns. You are allowed to check one box only! They are, a) Part of a gun collection, b) Target practice or target-shooting competition (here they ask if you are a member of a shooting club, to enter the name), c) Value as relic, rarity, memento or souvenir, d) protection of life, e) Lawful profession or occupation. I consider myself a shooter/collector as do a lot of other people, but this is not allowed. The shooter will have to justify every 5 years the need for owning a handgun. In New Brunswick the CPFO is trying to come up with a number of times a shooter must shoot to remain a shooter. What happens when through age or other reasons a shooter can not shoot any more, can they re-register as a collector at that time? The CFC says that would be difficult (I think that means no), the CPFO says yes. If you re-register now as a collector you will still be able to shoot. You then enter that vague area for collectors of paper work on the gun, history, inspection etc. The big catch in New Brunswick is you will need an ATT every time that you want to shoot, which I think can be done by phone. What is really interesting is why I keep referring to New Brunswick and not Canada as a whole. The ATTs are going to remain in the hands of the Provinces as the carry permits now are. They are not going to be handled by the CFC. The reason I was given for this, is that this is a very sensitive area to shooters and the Provinces wanted to make sure it was handled right, so they are going to do it for the first 2 years. Hope this is of interest. Leo Moore Sussex, N.B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:48:46 -0600 From: frontrun@cadvision.com Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #717 >>Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:50:03 -0600 >From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" >Subject: 40 RECOMMENDATIONS IGNORED > >NEWS RELEASE >November 26, 1998 >For Immediate Release > >FIREARMS CENTRE IGNORED 40 RECOMMENDATIONS BY PRIVACY..., Not only will we not have privacy, but criminals will actually find firearms "easier" to find in people's homes because the locked boxes are much larger and easier to find. Has anyone ever heard of a criminal who was deterred by a locked box? It must be nice for the Prime Minister to blow another $400,000 of our money to upgrade his security, while taking all forms of security, including pepper spray, from those who have never in their lives, been convicted of a crime -- women in particular. If you want to see something interesting, there are a few sites on the net of women hacked to death. Those were obviously the women who believed that if they were ever attacked, they would simply call 911 and the police would get to them before the intruder would. Dreamers! How stupid can women be? It's time for women to wake up. I still run into a number of women who, when asked what they would do if an intruder came in, reply "duh..... I druther not think aboud it. Duhhhh.... Today's government sickens me. They do what they want, which is nearly always what the people DON'T want. They tell us that anonymous surveys and anonymous numbers of unnamed groups have outnumbered the rest of us and ironically just happened to agree with what the government told us "SHALL BE". I often wonder if anarchy wouldn't be better. Our government leaders have seemingly turned into organized criminals who have turned against the people. They have become extremely corrupt and are totally incapable of managing money!! At least anarchy wouldn't be as organized and would probably be much cheaper. This gun thing is nothing but another hidden tax disguised as a form of protection. It's a secret way to get more taxes from selected groups of people. It's also a tax designed to make guns so expensive that only the very wealthy will be able to afford firearms. Just watch. Each year this hidden tax will increase until finally everyone will have to pay $500 a year to own a firearm. Next year the government will tell us once again, "uh oh. It costed more than we thought. Duh, we have a habit of hiring the most incapable accountants in the country, and paying them with your hard-earned dollar to miscalculate by a few billion. Heh heh. Surprise!! Now let's put that aside and carry on, like the good little fools you've always been, shall we?" Each year the government will put just one or two guns on the prohibited list so there won't be a massive outcry all at once. I'm sure their plan is to attack us all quietly, one at a time, so the outcry will be more silent. I can hardly wait until Quebec separates from Canada because that may also encourage Albertans to separate. Like an increasing number of my friends, I would LOVE for this province to become American. If we don't get out of this country quickly, Joe Clark will split the Reform vote right in two and we'll be stuck with the dreaded Liberals once again. Thanks Joe Clarke! We love you like we did the last time. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:47:59 -0600 From: Donna Ferolie Subject: Provincial CFO Contacts/ a dealer dialer update A DEALER DIALER UPDATE If you have a dealer near you who insists on becoming a verifier, DO NOT PANIC. This is strictly a volunteer program and they can " pull the pin " at at any time. There is nothing perventing this verifier from walking away on December 2, 1998 or January 5, 1999 etc..... Do not phone your provincial CFO unless you are prepared to sit on the phone for up to an hour. Dealers are complaining that they are getting bounced from person to person because no one is able to answer their very pointed questions. As I have said before, these offices are scrambling all over themselves ! If you are a dealer and care to relinguish you verification number, please contact your CFO. CFO BUSINESS CONTACTS ALBERTA Shirely Mack Office of the CFO Phone: ( 403 )412-6900 Fax: ( 403 )495-7970 BRITISH COLUMBIA Anita Fleice Phone: ( 250 )356-6496 Fax: ( 250 )356-9160 MANITOBA Dixie Brady Phone: ( 204 )984-0715 Fax: ( 204 )984-0670 NEW BRUNSWICK Heather Cull Phone: ( 506 )453-3775 Fax: (506 )453-3521 NEWFOUNDLAND Ray Kavanagh Phone: ( 709 )729-6511 Fax: ( 709 )729-3224 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES Torsten Kruze Phone: ( 867 )920-8393 Fax: ( 867 )920-8389 Please do NOT personally attack your dealer should he or she decide to become a verifier. It is only human nature that people come out fighting if they feel like they are backed up against the wall. Keep up the fight !!!!! Donna ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:48:33 -0600 From: WERNER BURGHARDT Subject: IMPORTANT >To: cdn-firearms-chat@sfn.saskatoon., sk.ca >From: WERNER BURGHARDT >Subject: IMPORTANT > >Last night was one of 14 Rallies to be held in BC to show the >NDP provincial government how "FED UP" they are. This was >sponsered by 'The Concerned Citizens Group' and 'Help BC'. >3,000 people were expected; between 5,000 and 6,000 showed >up. These people were from all walks of our society. > >The RFC Information Center - BC, (S)ecurity (S)ervices & (A)ids (C)o. >was represented. Many thanks to Mr. Dave Worfolk for standing at >the door and handing out the pamphlets. They were scooped up in a matter >of moments. > >These people are very much aware of the whole situation and have >expressed thier need for answers. The answer to "why" this is >happening. > >There were many organizations represented but the firearms >community seemed to be absent save Mr. Worfolk. > >Again many thanks to Mr. Worfolk for his efforts. > >in good conservation >The Oldtimer >Werner Burghardt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:48:51 -0600 From: Donna Ferolie Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT ANNOUNCEMENT I am scheduled to attend the next United Nations workshop in Vienna for this coming January 1999. I would like to extend my deepest appreciation to the NRA for allowing me to attend under their banner. Donna Ferolie ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^'' [ the following is a condensed version of the Breitkreuz press release ] Dennis Young , Garry Breitkreuz's assistant sent over the most interesting news release last week - pertaining to " DEPART. DENIES EXISTENCE OF AXWORTHY'S OPEN LETTER ON GLOBAL GUN CONTROL ". He commented on the denials by officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs of the existence of an " Open Letter " which Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axworthy delivered at " The Olso Meeting on Small Arms ". Reuters even quoted from Axworthy's " Open Letter " in a wire story titled " Small Arms reductions theme of new Olso talks " and now they say it doesn't exist ? asked the incredulous MP. Breitkreuz was forced to file an Access to Information Request in a last ditch attempt to get the Open Letter. The Reuters article said, " These are the weapons that cause the most death and injury. Small arms and light weapons designed and manufactured for defense or internal security purposes should be restricted to military and police organizations only, and then only in such quantities that can be justified for legitimate defense or security needs f those countries, " Axworthy wrote. Breitkreuz said, " The Liberal Government's gun control agenda was made clear last November by Deputy Herb Grey." Grey was in Washington signing an international arms control agreement when he said, " This could be the start of a global movement that would spur the development of an instrument to ban firearms worldwide similar to our land-mines initiative." Breitkreuz asks, " If they are so proud of their plans to ban firearms worldwide, why go to all the trouble of keeping it a secret from the Canadian people ? With the passage of C68, the Liberal Government gave themselves the absolute power to ban all guns in Canada. Now it seems they want the United Nations to have this same type of power over the rest of the world, " concluded Breitkreuz. [ Our many thanks to Dennis Young who continues to belt out this kind of material on a regular basis. ] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:49:17 -0600 From: dons@cadabratech.com (Don Shesnicky) Subject: Liberals fire a blank with Bill C-68 Email submission to the National Post, we'll see if they accept it for publicaton. Don - ------- Your editorial comment on November 27 "Liberals fire a blank with Bill C-68" while pointing out major problems in C-68 only briefly touches on it's real injustice when it mentions "it's current criminalized form". It is actually the heart of the matter and the reason for such strong opposition. Ignoring the fact that C-68 forces an firearms owner to give up a large number of their constitutional rights, this legislation enables extreme criminal penalities for failures in paperwork. Failure to register can result in a five year sentence. A mistake in firearm identification, even if the person registering honestly thought the information was correct, is punished as if the offender were a violent rapist. Failure to "promptly" report the theft or loss of a firearm, another serious criminal charge. Over 140 pages of legislation the vast majority of which is oriented at your average gun owner. The fact of the matter is, as almost every firearms owner in this country has been stating, it's not just about registration, it's about treating law abiding firearms owners as if they were the most vile of criminals. That is not something I'll forget. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #722 **********************************