From - Mon Dec 7 14:43:33 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11609; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:55:20 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01118; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:33:37 -0600 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:33:37 -0600 Message-Id: <199812071433.IAA01118@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #738 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 360c873d0000a31f Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, December 7 1998 Volume 02 : Number 738 In this issue: Fw: FACTS AXWORTHY'S SPEECH - A MUST READ Strong Arm Tactics Re: DoJ attack on Hunting THREE LETTERS pork! Police breaking law ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:04:00 -0600 From: "Len McLaughlin" Subject: Fw: FACTS CHRETIENS BILL C-68 ( THE BIG LIE ) -------------------------------------------- THE CHRETIEN FACTS (?) ------------------------------ CHRETIEN HAS SAID THAT BY SUPPORTING C-68 , 80% OF CANADIANS HAVE AGREED TO A BILL THAT :-- Forces into extinction another Canadian tradition enjoyed by past generations. Attacks the law abiding gun owner, i.e.. another attack on the middle class.? Allows a single politician at his whim to by-pass parliament and to increase fees.( taxes?) Allows a single politician to declare personal property illegal,subject to search and seizure without compensation. Allows a search warrant to be instigated by an angry neighbour or jealous girlfriend. Removes the right of silence in the home when confronted by authorities. Forces a homeowner to list valuable personal property on a computerized listing,and thus available to thieves at the local tavern. Endangers the personal safety of the law abiding gun owner and his family by allowing his home to become a target for thieves. Removes any right of Canadians to protect themselves,their family or property. Requires a 279 page bill and a 1370 page manual to control the law abiding gun owner Allows for a mandatory jail term for ignorance of the law. Allows for a mandatory jail term for a mistake in paper work. Allows for some Canadians to be treated less severely than others. Allows for unequal enforcement on reserves and possibly other parts of the country. Will make Canadians unequal under the law. Moves Canadians one step closer to an elected dictatorship. Confirms the Liberals belief in their Divine Right to Rule. Sets a dangerous precedent for future bills if accepted by the public. >> MORE FACTS REGARDING CHRETIENS BIG LIE, C-68 :- VLTs have resulted in more suicides than all recorded suicides involving firearms. Insurance companies recognize that guns are not a threat in the home. There will be less enforcement on Reserves in spite of them having the higher suicide rates. The same bureaucrats that have been unable to control illegal drugs will no doubt be equally successful in controlling the "illegal guns" that they created? Data indicates that any decrease in firearm robberies is offset by an increase in physical force involving knives etc.. Data indicates that when firearms are not available in the home,robbers tend to victimize soft targets such as the elderly. Data indicates from one half billion to two billions will be spent on this bill. One shut down hospital, due to a lack of funds, can result in far more deaths than by firearms. Polls still indicate that two thirds of Canadians believe that they have the right to self defense. Armed robberies are 200% higher than in 1968 when the Liberals took the first steps in disarming the people. The average police response time can be an hour or even more in rural areas. Chretien has just spent $400,000 on additional security to his home because of police response time. Less than 0.5% of all accidental deaths are due to firearms as per insurance companies. Data indicates that a criminal, within 24 hours of being released from prison, can easily obtain an illegal hand gun. In the U.S. only 13% of burglaries are committed against occupied homes compared to44% in Canada. Data indicates that robbery or assault victims who defend themselves with a firearm are much less likely to be attacked than those using other means. Slanted press coverage can be misleading to Canadians as when a U.S. student shot his classmates little mention was made of the four homemade bombs in his house, any of which would have been more devastating had he used them rather than the gun. Another gov't double standard is its use of polls that seem to suit their agenda i.e.. - polls on C-68 versus polls on capital punishment ;; the use of England and Australia as gun law examples but then disregarding that those countries compensated their people for any guns confiscated. Are Canadians second-class citizens by comparison. Only a minority of Canadians admit to knowing anything about this bill and an even smaller minority have read it. This is a Lloyd Axworthy type bill that is designed to bring Canada into line with the perceived need of third world countries, ignoring the fact that sooner or later, many of them will end up with dictatorships. In England and Australia homicides and violent crimes actually increased after restrictive gun laws were enforced. C-68 will result in lost jobs and lost income, it will consume tax money that would be better spent on health care etc.., and overall, it will not save one life. If you believed that Chretien would get rid of the GST and free trade then you probably will believe Chretien and C-68. CONCLUSION :- C-68 WAS NEVER INTENDED TO WORK AS CLAIMED. C-68 CAN RESULT IN A NET LOSS OF LIFE. C-68 IS ANOTHER CHRETIEN BIG LIE >> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:04:02 -0600 From: CILA Subject: AXWORTHY'S SPEECH - A MUST READ NOTES FOR AN ADDRESS BY THE HONOURABLE LLOYD AXWORTHY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF CANADA TO THE SPECIAL INFORMATION BRIEFING ON SMALL ARMS AND LIGHT WEAPONS NEW YORK, 25 SEPTEMBER 1998 I thank you for attending this special information briefing and for your interest in this urgent and pressing issue. At an NGO gathering near Toronto last month, one participant remarked how the subject had gone "from zero to sixty" very quickly. Your presence here underlines the need to address the challenges from small arms and light weapons. The issue is now firmly on the international agenda. As Minister Vollebaek noted, what emerged from the July Oslo meeting was a common understanding by 21 countries about the complexity of the issue and the urgency to meet its challenges. What was especially clear was the global dimension of the problem and the need for global solutions. I hope that as a result of our meeting today, we can mobilize an even larger engagement in a common effort to seek solutions. The participants at Oslo recognized the important role the UN must play. Canada strongly endorses this view. The UN Group of Governmental Experts, under Ambassador Donowaki's chairmanship, will report in the coming year on the implementation of last year's landmark report of the UN Panel of Experts on Small Arms. It will also outline further action that the UN might take. This will be important in guiding our efforts. We look forward to hearing from them. We also support the drafting of a protocol on the illicit trafficking of firearms as part of a larger Transnational Organized Crime Convention, to be ready for signature in 2000. In addition to efforts at the UN, we recognized at Oslo the importance of taking action at the regional, sub-regional and national levels. In other words, a truly "holistic" approach is essential. If governments are to make a difference, we must work comprehensively on all aspects of the issue at home, with our neighbours and in our regions. Anything less will simply not work. Canada is pursuing its efforts along three tracks: advancing humanitarian action through peacebuilding; attacking the phenomenon of illicit trafficking of small arms and light weapons; and further regulating the licit trade of these deadly weapons. We concluded that we could tackle the problem only by pursuing balanced and comprehensive action along all three tracks. And it is essential to combine local, regional and international action on each of these three tracks. We need a full tool kit -- from grass-roots arms buyback projects to international conventions -- to tackle this complex, multi-faceted problem. Perhaps the most pressing need is humanitarian action to help societies emerging from conflict that are awash in small arms and light weapons. Unless former combatants are disarmed, demobilized and re-integrated into society, the risk of relapse into violence, or the export of violence to other countries, will remain unacceptably high. This is particularly the case when children are used in armed conflicts. Canada supports a wide range of regional and local projects. These include projects in Mali, Mozambique, the Horn of Africa, El Salvador and Nicaragua to buy back arms or to assist ex-combatants in re-integrating into society. The proposed West African Moratorium, to which Canada is contributing, is particularly promising. It is an innovative way of linking grass-roots initiatives, regional solutions and international support. We also need to attack illicit arms transfers. De-weaponizing societies will never succeed if small arms taken out of circulation are simply replaced by new ones. Stopping these deliveries is no easy task. There is a clear need for broad-based regional and multilateral co-operation. A number of international initiatives are already under way. I have noted efforts at the UN. The Group of Eight leaders this year approved a set of principles that could be incorporated into these efforts. The Organization of American States' [OAS] Inter-American Convention Against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives and other Related Materials is an important regional initiative. It provides a foundation for co-operation between OAS countries and could serve as a useful precedent for negotiations in other international forums. However, it is simply not enough to prevent the criminal smuggling of firearms. We also need to address problems surrounding the legal trade in small arms and light weapons. New small arms and light weapons are produced each day. And each day, more weapons are added to the global stock. Canada, in consultation with governments and with advice from civil society and NGOs, has been looking at ways to address the problem. Reaching a common understanding on this aspect of the problem is an important, essential first step before taking action. We are not there yet. More work needs to be done. The challenges arising from the proliferation and widespread abuse of small arms and light weapons are complex. But the impact on all of us, especially the most vulnerable, is direct and devastating. There are no easy solutions and no shortcuts. As the century draws to a close, human security is more vulnerable than ever. Confronting the challenges relating to small arms and light weapons is important to reverse this trend. Our meeting at Oslo was a start. If we hope to find lasting solutions, we need wider engagement. I hope you will join us in the ongoing effort to achieve greater human security through the reduction or elimination of the threat posed by military small arms and light weapons. Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:28:06 -0600 From: wes Subject: Strong Arm Tactics The following is what I am hearing from alot of dealers and the same tactics were used on us as well.. wes - -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Montague To: 'Elwood Epps (Wes)' Date: Friday, December 04, 1998 6:14 PM Subject: Verifier cohersion! I am Bruce Montague of Monty's Gunsmithing in Dryden Ontario. I am responding to an enquiry by Jane Perry about anyone having been 'strong armed' by the RCMP to become a verifier. I was threatened by RCMP Cpl. Derek Matchett to become a verifier or lose my business license. When I refused and informed him that this is a volunteer position he changed tactics. He started giving hints that he may be a very very long time before he finds time to verify my guns when I sell them..., ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:34:16 -0600 From: "Glenn Springer" Subject: Re: DoJ attack on Hunting On 5 Dec 98,"William D. Guse" wrote, > Subject: Latest DOJ Attack on Hunting > > It appears that Attila Annies Troop are marshalling their efforts to > criminalize hunting through changes to the criminal Code with respect > "Crimes Against Animals". Check out the website at > http://canada.justice.gc.ca/Consultations/animaux/index_en.html for the > discussion paper relating to their latest underhanded moves. You can make >This is indeed disconcerting. PETA and their ilk could be the next CfGC so action should be commenced now. We should take this seriously...., Since we save game animals from the cruel death due to starvation or predation, we would be committing an offence under para. 446(1)(a) "Every one commits an offence who...wilfully causes, or...permits to be caused unnecessary pain, suffering or injury to an animal or a bird;" IF WE DID NOT HUNT. Can someone clarify the following? How do bear baiting and pheasant farms fit into the law? para. 446(1)(d) says, "Every one commits an offence who... in any manner encourages, aids or assists at the fighting or baiting of animals or birds;" and 446(1)(f) says, "...promotes, arranges, conducts, assists in, receives money for or takes part in any meeting, competition, exhibition, pastime, practice, display or event at or in the course of which captive birds are liberated by hand, trap, contrivance or any other means for the purpose of being shot when they are liberated..." Glenn Springer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:33:19 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: THREE LETTERS PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 98.12.07 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PNAME : Letters PAGE: A10 BYLINE: Garry Breitkreuz SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen ILLUSTRATION: Black & White Photo: Rod MacIvor, The Ottawa Citizen / Justice Minister Anne McLellan recently launched Canada's controversial new Firearms Act, which came into effect Dec. 1. New gun registration ignores privacy fears Wendy Cukier, president of the Coalition for Gun Control (``Gun law brings Canada in line with other countries,'' Dec. 2) disagreed with my concerns that Bill C-68, the Firearms Act, violates the privacy rights of millions of Canadians. If she's not convinced by my arguments, maybe she'll pay attention to the concerns raised by Privacy Commissioner Bruce Phillips. Here's an excerpt from the Nov. 23 letter the privacy commissioner sent to me: ``This past June, my staff reviewed drafts of many of the forms for the new firearms licensing and registration systems. Following this review, we provided to the Canadian Firearms Centre a total of more than 40 comments relating to eight of the forms. ``These comments related generally to the fact that many of the questions appeared to be too loosely worded and that, in providing answers to these questions, applicants could be providing more personal information than would be necessary to determine if, in owning firearms, they might pose a threat to themselves or others. On Sept. 29, we received copies of the final version of some of the forms that were made available to the public on Oct. 1. Our office was not aware that our comments resulted in very few changes until the forms had already been printed and distributed.'' The minister of justice has completely ignored the privacy commissioner's warnings in his 1996/97 annual report. Back then, Mr. Phillips said, ``Since the [firearms] regulations themselves provide little detail, it now appears that only the forms and schematics of the process will provide the answers -- far too late to provide legal protection.'' Following the minister's lead, bureaucrats in the Justice Department ignored more than 40 recommendations to improve the forms the privacy commissioner warned the government about a year and a half ago. The arrogance of the bureaucrats in the justice minister's department is absolutely disgusting. This gun registration system is going to leak like a sieve. Private information about millions of firearm owners and the guns they own is going to be an open book to criminals across Canada. If law abiding, responsible firearm owners were considering registering early, I say don't do it Wait until the government gets its act together. Wait until your Charter right to a ``reasonable expectation of privacy'' is fully respected and fully protected. Garry Breitkreuz, MP, Yorkton-Melville PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 98.12.07 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PNAME : Letters PAGE: A10 BYLINE: Chris Spring SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen Not so simple Poorly communicated, sweeping changes to Canada's firearms laws came into effect Dec. 1. To usher them in, Justice Minister Anne McClellan went public to assure Canadians this would be a simple, painless, one time only process. She also assured us that confiscating firearms couldn't be farther from the government's mind. She was clear that these new measures are necessary in the interest of public safety. I went to the post office to get an application to register non-restricted firearms. It was easier said than done. The folks at the post office had no idea what the application looked like, and it took some time to find one. Once in hand it was immediately apparent that the single ``post card'' type application the minister promised is anything but. The form is much bigger than a post card (9 1/2 x 7) and comprises multiple pages. I expect that it cannot be returned at the letter rate. The minister didn't tell us that an application to register a firearm is useless to those people who do not already hold Firearms Acquisition Certificates. There are lots of us out here. She didn't tell us that as of Dec. 1, if we didn't have a valid FAC, we would need a Firearms Possession Certificate (FPL) in order to register. She also didn't tell us that the fee for the new FPL will be higher than its predecessor, the FAC. While the minister did say I could register my firearm for $10, she neglected to tell me that by the time I had my photo taken, taken the mandatory course at a cost of roughly $200, filled out the forms, obtained the references, and enclosed the fee (up to $80) to get the FPL, I'd be lucky to have my firearm registered for under $300. Therefore when Ms. McClellan says confiscating firearms is not in the government's cards, or that Canada will be safer as a result of these new measures, I don't find her credible. When she tells me something, chances are there is much more she's hiding. Until I know what exactly she and her cronies are up to, I'll continue to wrestle with the conundrum of whether to comply. Trick me once, shame on you. Trick me twice, shame on me. Thanks, Anne, for putting me in this predicament. Chris Spring, Osgoode PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 98.12.07 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PNAME : Letters PAGE: A10 BYLINE: James F. Morrow SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen Abject failure I read Wendy Cukier's latest letter (``Gun law brings Canada in line with other countries,'' Dec. 2) and it was not without errors. She makes FACs look to have existed only since 1993. FACs have been around since 1979, when bill C51 came into force. She claims that two-thirds of gun owners do not currently hold an FAC. FACs expire after five years but guns last indefinitely, so figure it out. According to her figures of the guns recovered by Ottawa police in 1995, 32 per cent were shotguns and rifles and 18 per cent were handguns or others. That only adds up to 50 per cent. I cannot imagine what the other 50 per cent were because rifles, shotguns and handguns are the only common gun types that I am aware of. Ms. Cukier states that gun registration will bring Canada into line with other industrialized countries on the issue. That is exactly what critics are afraid of. Sixty years of handgun registration in Canada has been an abject failure. Gun registration also wasted resources and failed in Britain, New Zealand and Australia. Her closing remark was accurate, though. There are two sides to this issue -- the right one and the wrong one. James F. Morrow, Ottawa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:33:27 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: pork! Yes there is a correlation to starving farmers and Gun Registration! Most of trhe vocal support against this C 68 are rural people little Lloyd Axeworthy and other western based Liberals have enginered this disaster for farmers - particularly pork farners in retaliation! Has anyone heard a murmer of support for these farmers from the Western based Cabinate Ministers - Anne McLellan or Allen rock~ not a peep! the Liberas want to destroy the power base of Western Agriculture! Gordon! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:33:34 -0600 From: Malcolm Baron Subject: Police breaking law I didn't submit this earlier because I was pretty sure that someone else would. No one else did so here it is. In the Toronto Sun last week some day, there was a story that said that the Metro Police were in violatiuon of C-68 because their weapons storage did not meet the requiresments of the safe storage regs. The police chief said that they would be complying but they could not now because they didn't have the money to rebuild their armoury. He said that it would take a couple of million dollars to do the upgade and it would be several years before they could do it. This raises several questions: If the police are in violation of the law, why aren't they charged? Where these costs factored into the governments cost estimates for the cost of C-68? If I choose not to comply with the law at this time, can I get away with using the excuser that it is not in this years budget? I am sure that we can use this info somehow in the fight. If anyone else saw or has a coipy of this story maybe they could post it. Malcolm Baron ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #738 **********************************