From - Mon Dec 7 14:43:41 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA12051; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:17:38 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03038; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:04:10 -0600 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:04:10 -0600 Message-Id: <199812071504.JAA03038@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #739 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 360c873d0000a33d Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, December 7 1998 Volume 02 : Number 739 In this issue: Re:Dec. 05/ TOUGH GUN LAW SALUTED AT VIGIL Re: Aboriginal Adaptation Regulations verifiers Letter to Justice Critic Edmonton Gun Show Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #733 play thier game. Carry permits Canadian Tire and Walmart Bill C-68 Re: [alert] FW: New business hotline Self-referencing definition by the government Re: [alert] FW: New business hotline verifiers, nonverifiers and gun ranges RE: FAC Re: REGISTRATION BLUES Len is correct ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:35:02 -0600 From: lundgard@ccinet.ab.ca Subject: Re:Dec. 05/ TOUGH GUN LAW SALUTED AT VIGIL Sir, Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca In the article "TOUGH GUN LAW SALUTED AT VIGIL" (December 5, 1998 ) your newspaper has published some misleading information. > By ALAN FINDLAY -- Toronto Sun > Canada's controversial new gun law is a legacy of the 14 > women killed by a suicidal gunman in Montreal nine years ago, > gun control activist Wendy Cukier says. > Speaking yesterday at a vigil at Women's College Hospital to > mark the Montreal Massacre, Cukier, president of the Coalition > for Gun Control, said the tragedy showed how inadequate gun > control was at the time. > "In many cities, we knew more about who owned dogs than we > did about who owned guns," she told about 100 women and > men. > The new federal law, which went into effect this week, requires > all gun owners to register their weapons within five years. Unfortunately, the new gun law would have not prevented this incident had it been in place at the time of this horrible incident. The perpetrator had met all of the legal obligations to obtain a firearm at the time - and would have met all of the current requirements needed to obtain firearms as there has been very little change in the requirements. The new gun law is not "tougher" in this respect. > 'Catalyst' > The law also bans some handguns and assault rifles, such as the > .223-calibre semi-automatic used by Marc Lepine during his > murderous rampage through the University of Montreal on Dec. > 6, 1989. This is in error, the firearm in question was a "hunting rifle" and is has NOT been banned, nor has it been restricted in any way. I question the motives of those who would transfer the responsibility for this horrible incident from the perpetrator to the tool he used. > "It was very much a catalyst to looking into the whole problem," > Cukier said. > She mentioned that the Ontario government is helping Alberta > challenge the new law in the courts. > Fourteen participants in the vigil, including Cukier and former > Toronto mayor Barbara Hall, each put a long-stemmed red rose > into a vase to represent each woman killed. > "It's clear while much has changed, much has remained the > same," Cukier said. My sympathy is extended to the families and friends of the women killed, injured, and frightened by this aberrant act of so long ago. My sympathy also to the perpetrators mother as she has lost her child and every memory of happiness or pleasure has been replaced by horror. Imagine your own horror and guilt if your child committed a similar aberrant act. One of the horrible paradoxes of an event of this nature is that when the victims are remembered with honor and respect, the families and friends relive the horror and fear created by the incident, the perpetrator is also remembered and becomes part of history. Changing the firearms laws only serves as a "placebo" and diverts attention from the causes of violence against women. Jerrold Lundgard BTW: if you check placebo in the dictionary, it is the first "antiphon" or hymn of the vespers for the dead... (Websters New World Dictonary, third college ed.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:34:40 -0600 From: "John E. Stevens" Subject: Re: Aboriginal Adaptation Regulations At 08:38 AM 12/5/1998 -0600, Sheldon Clare wrote: >A question that has become controversial in Prince George is whether >or not aboriginal people are required to register firearms. There >is a set of regulations called the "Aboriginal Adaptation Regulations" >which on their face, appear to be a means for providing access to the law >for aboriginal people. Newspaper columnist and talk show host Ben >Meisner has claimed in his column that Aboriginals using tribal >or band firearms for sustenance hunting and traditional ceremonies are >not required to register their firearms, whether restricted or not. Scuse me. Using firearms in traditional ceremonies? Would anyone care to expand on that? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:35:29 -0600 From: "rod mcbeath" Subject: verifiers It occurs to me that verifiers are probably doing this on their own time (I doubt any company would allow an employee time for this crap). As such, one wouldn't want to call during business hours. So, if I was working shift work, and wanted to contact the verifier, the suitable time would be around 3:00AM or so, no? I wonder what this would do to their enthusiasm for verifying? later rod ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:35:25 -0600 From: BChow2or81@aol.com Subject: Letter to Justice Critic Mailing this by snail to Mr Reynolds and others. Hope everyone is sending their versions. Cheers, Bud. (Mailing address and e-mail address) 9 December 1998 John Reynolds, M.P. House of Commons, Ottawa, ON Dear Mr. Reynolds: Congratulations on your recent appointment as Chief Justice Critic. I know that when you are performing your new duties you will be thinking not only of your Party's welfare but of the prosperity and freedom of all Canadians. On 28 April of this year, I wrote to Mr. Denis Desautels, Auditor General of Canada, to ask his help in the fight against the prodigious waste of time, money and personnel embodied in the most Draconian legislation ever seen in this country - Bill C-68, now known as the Firearms Act. Having received what I consider to be an unsatisfactory reply to my letter, and having since learned of the continuing serious escalation in the costs associated with C-68, I must once again voice my serious concern. Its promotion and passage must have been enormously expensive, and the projected total cost promised by Mr. Rock has long ago been exceeded, mostly due to computer and software problems and the salaries associated with new departments such as the Canadian Firearms Centre. They recently confirmed that continuing costs will run to tens of millions per year! To November 30th, not a single rifle or shotgun has been registered, and not one violent crime has been prevented, although way back in 1995 Mr. Rock claimed that the need for immediate "action" was urgent! Registration alone will exceed 2 BILLION dollars, because there are in fact well over 21 million firearms legally owned and each registration costs at least $90. Even if there WERE only 5 or 7 million legally owned firearms as claimed by the present M. of J., the cost would be a staggering $500 million, about 6 times the promised maximum! Then there are all sorts of direct fees to be paid by the public, at every step of the way and for every simple transfer of a firearm, adding up to far more than the cost of the property itself. Apply that brilliant concept to anything else in our lives and imagine the consequences. Add the costs of litigation resulting from attempted enforcement of this Law and we'll be looking at astronomic figures. I urge you to insist that this matter be investigated immediately. We can't justify more and more useless waste, nor can we allow the even more costly and dangerous result - the cynical erosion of civil liberties provided by many sections of the FA . The need is urgent. Please send me a list of your proposed actions; I'll be intensely interested in your statements and other activities regarding this Law, and look forward to receiving news by e-mail from you and your staff as often as possible. Yours very truly, (Signed) with Cc: Jean Chretien, Prime Minister Preston Manning, Leader of the Opposition Raymond Chan, M.P. for Richmond, BC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:33:57 -0600 From: "Bob Kennaway" Subject: Edmonton Gun Show I attended the Edmonton Gun Show yesterday and to my amusement there was a little room near the entrance, which contained three or four federal firearms employees unsuccessfully trying to register guns. There was an air of extreme frustration emanating from the room. To make matters worse for the government clerks, and to add to their frustration, the room was surrounded by elderly gentlemen telling them to go away. One clerk who was standing at the door of the room shouted to the elderly gentlemen, "We are government employees and we are here to stay"! The clerks were generally arrogant and abusive to the elderly gentlemen, most of whom were being exposed to Bill C-68 for the first time. I passed the room again a while later and things seemed to have gone from bad to worse; as he was leaving the room, one of the clerks shouted at the top of his voice "I'm a civilian member of the RCMP"! I was also told by one confused gun dealer that the clerks eventually gave up trying to register directly over the phone as required by law because the computer system was down again; and resorted to getting people to fill in the forms and hand over $25.00 for registration. They apparently said that the data would be entered at a later date. If this is true customers were leaving with their newly purchased guns without the appropriate transaction number which is required by law as proof of registration. I think we should rename the gun show "The Edmonton Ghost Gun Show". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:35:16 -0600 From: "larry leggo" Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #733 The Sat. Dec.05/98 CBC Evenng News had a story on a fellow named Bruce Hutton,from Rocky Mountain House,Alta., who is heading a new organization named L.U.F.A., The "mandate" is to refuse ,absolutely, to register any/all firearms.Could somebody provide me with some info on this--I think he may really be on to something here,don't you ?? Tamarack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:35:08 -0600 From: mcmurter@telusplanet.net Subject: play thier game. If we all play thier games like bombbarding the cfc with phone calls and sending in bogus forms' what will we accomplish. These people are goverment employees working eight hours a day.they do not care how long this takes.They do not care about how many phone calls or how many forms they get. But there is something we can do join THE LAW- ABIDING UNREGISTERED FIREARMS ASSOCIATION . This group was stated just a few weeks ago by ex RCMP Bruce Hutton. Only two meetings and we have over a thousand members. Our goal is simple we will NOT REGISTER OUR LONGGUNS.The idea is to get as many members as we can; and when the first person gets charged with an unregistered firearm we will all demand to be arrested to. If we can get twenty thousand members to do this; it will tie the courts up for years. You can contact LUFA at 403 8453949 Fax 403 8452760 Our website is being made and the address will be WWW.LUFA.CA Hope to here from you. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:34:01 -0600 From: Kevin Subject: Carry permits Are carry permits that were issued under the old system still valid until their respective expiry dates? Thanks, Kevin Fearn Moose Jaw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:33:40 -0600 From: "W. Jon McCormick" Subject: Canadian Tire and Walmart Friend just came back from a Kamloops, B.C. shopping trip and said that Walmart will not sell ammo to anyone who does not have an FAC. Canadian Tire has a sign up saying firearms, including airguns, require a $25.00 registration fee! Anyone know if this is nation wide or just B.C. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:33:38 -0600 From: Patricia DAKUS Subject: Bill C-68 I just read the December 2nd Edmonton Journal article about the gun law being officially launched in Ottawa. The thing I found most disgusting was the use of a supposed gun enthusiast as a stage prop. The article stated that this individual helped write the safety manual and all he wanted in return was certificate number one. Two observations. 1)The price of betrayal has gone down considerably from the days when 30? pieces of silver was the going rate. 2)The government always did go with the lowest bidder and the finished product usually shows it. R. W. MCKNIGHT ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:03:48 -0600 From: Bill Farion Subject: Re: [alert] FW: New business hotline Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1 wrote: Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca > > SPECIAL BULLETIN FOR BUSINESSES No. 9 > > NEW BUSINESS HOTLINE > > > > > > We realize that some of you have been having difficulty with > > firearms transfers under the new system. To help ease the way, we Hi; What happens if the RCMP bully boys have not given a buisness a BIN #. Several are being held up because they refuse to become "voulenteer verifiers" for the government, with the resulting horrendous liabilities!? This has happened to several Edmonton shops! Cheers Bill (;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:03:53 -0600 From: Jean Hogue Subject: Self-referencing definition by the government I recently renewed my carry permit for restricted firearms [ amazing that cfd subscribers from other province complain that they have to "list" all shooting ranges they want to go to -- for at least 10 years, the Surete du Quebec strictly limited carry permits to a specific club]. Included with the permit was document JUS-92-193-02 (DORS/SOR) stating it pleases His Excellency the Governor in Council to accept the following regulations ... "Definitions: a restricted firearm is a firearm which is a restricted firearm" [translated from French] other defintion, "a non-restricted firearm, is a firearm which is not restricted or prohibited". [no definition of "prohibited" in this document]. Brilliant ! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:03:56 -0600 From: John Mellor Subject: Re: [alert] FW: New business hotline > > SPECIAL BULLETIN FOR BUSINESSES No. 9 > > NEW BUSINESS HOTLINE > > > > > > We realize that some of you have been having difficulty with > > firearms transfers under the new system. To help ease the way, we > > have set up a hotline, 1 800 396-3466, exclusively for the use of > > businesses. This line connects directly to operators who deal > > with transfers and other business matters. Am I to understand from this message, that if I wish to transfer a firearm as a private individual, that it is ok for me to sit on a phone on hold for hours at a time, while others get to jump to the front of the queue? How do I go about objecting to that kind of crap? Why has the number of people on the other end not yet been tripled to do this peroperly? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:03:59 -0600 From: Peter Cronhelm Subject: verifiers, nonverifiers and gun ranges OK I have decided to try and compile a list of verifying and nonverifying shops as well as a list of approved ranges. I think it will be useful for the RFC to be able to give out info as to which shops people should avoid and which ar OK to shop in. It would really help out the shop owners who are supporting us. The gun range list will be available for those filling out the transport forms. The feds want to list all the ranges to which you are limited on your transport permit. The only way around this is to list EVERY range in the province or local area. At the moment I am going to limit this to Alberta because that is where I live. It would be nice if a few other people in other provinces would take up the cause on their own behalf. Please e.mail me directly with the info. Peter Cronhelm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:03:49 -0600 From: Larrie Carr Subject: RE: FAC >> Could someone explain to me. I have an appointment for Dec. 7 for a fac >>test. I made it assumeing titanic c68 would not come into being. The test >>is still on. So will they give me an fac? > >No, the FAC is done for now, except for applications already in progress. >However, they (the gummint) doesn't have the new non-restricted and >restricted courses up and running, so they are still using the FAC test as >qualification for the new licences. > >Why don't you phone 1-800-731-4000 and verify my opinion - if you've got an >hour or so of free time > >Brad So what happens if they reject the FAC application? Say for something stupid like a bad picture? Does the appeal process continue? Larrie. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:04:01 -0600 From: "Alan Harper" Subject: Re: REGISTRATION BLUES I attended a local postal outlet and was given only 3 forms. That's not even one of each. I complained to the assistant manager (the manager was not there) of the pharmacy, where the postal outlet is located. She asked me if I would like to have her place an order for the forms, and leave my phone number with her. I said OK. A couple of hours later, she called and told me that I could get my forms in a few days. Maybe you could place an order, Bob. It's worth a try. The lady who ordered the forms said she had to order them directly from the company who made them. I think she meant the CFC, so they are filling larger orders. I just picked them up 2 days ago from the postal outlet. They were quite pleasant with me and I reacted in kind. I'm not saying how many I got, but I took a 2 wheeled handcart to pick them up. I didn't quite get enough for the other members of the club, so I'll be heading back for another order. As far as the bar code goes, I'm willing to cut off all of them, but one. I'm not buying that excuse from them. I just had my picture taken at the Ministry of Transport. THEY DID IT FOR ME. Imagine that! I had to pay for my own, when I applied for my FAC. And if I collected cars, the Ministry of Transport will actually give me a form for each car, and I don't have to photocopy them. I believe the NFA has stated that the pictures and forms should be handled by another government agency who already do. Sounds good to me. The Ministry of Transport could teach the CFC plenty about dealing with their employers, the citizens of this country. A good idea would be to actually TRAIN the people who answer that CFC hotline. They don't seem to know anything at all, except to pass the buck. I was promised a verifier, by the CFC, from the Kingston RCMP, to re-register all my pistols. That was about 2 weeks ago. Haven't heard from him. Maybe he lost my number. Let's get our already registered guns verified by RCMP. If they don't like doing it, let them inform their superiors. Bye. Al. . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:04:03 -0600 From: David Leskowski Subject: Len is correct Len is correct in many of his Dec. 3rd. statements. Once we have all agreed that we all need to to vote together, and vote splitting is the only reason the Federal Liberals can rule the country with less than 40% support, we need to seriously look at what is actually required to "Sell" voters on another way to vote. The sales analogy make a lot of sense. One of the original reasons I joined the Reform Party years ago was to fight the Federal Conservative's proposed gun legislation. Many people joined for other reasons, and now Reform is developing into a more broadly-based political party. I personally have written policies which members during national assemblies accepted by popular vote, and which are now in the Blue Book. These policies affect Financial Institutions and Health care, so that is proof that we have no fear, as gun owners, of stepping out into other territories to attract voters. Within our own sub-culture, we are already "converted", but we are still putting a lot of effort into preaching to ourselves! I am still going to preach about the vote-splitting, because that is the hobby horse I have chosen to ride for the most effect. In my opinion, there are enough of us, that if we CAN vote together, we can win a federal election. To attract more voters, however, we need to consider what Len has said. To get ex-CLOG support, we should figure out new strategies. Our Leader in this effort IS Cretien. Here is a list of what we could ask ex;CLOGs to consider: Pepper spray, and tampering with the Commission Denying benefits to Hep-C victims and Merchant Mariners Reducing health care and education transfer payments to the provinces, while doling out federal payments to post-secondary scholarships directly to get votes Stealing unemployment insurance premiums from workers and business Mismanaging the Canada Pension fund, and then planning the biggest tax grab in history to make us pay for their screw-up No plan for Unity, no plan for Quebec Destroying morale in the armed forces Helicopters: fly the old ones, kill our men and boys GST: don't scrap it, just tell us we actually like it Jobs, jobs jobs, going south south south.......... The Shawinagin handshake etc. ad nauseum Don't we have enough besides C-68 to make fellow citizens believe that we need better federal government? I think we do. I am working on the United Alternative campaign now...hope it works out. I would like to see everyone, Reformers, and ex-CLOGs join in, because it is at ground zero right now, and I would like to see some decent people standing at the doors to keep the like of BM (and advisors and successors), KC (if she gets back from California), Rock, McLellan, out of the room. I am a little worried about these viruses getting back into our political blood supply. David Leskowski. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #739 **********************************