From - Mon Dec 14 12:18:14 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA28587; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 07:36:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12114; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 07:17:01 -0600 Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 07:17:01 -0600 Message-Id: <199812131317.HAA12114@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #755 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: O X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 360c873d0000ab37 Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, December 13 1998 Volume 02 : Number 755 In this issue: Re: [alert] Civil Disobedience Re: [alert] Re: my registration experience More flexible enforcement of the Firearms Act Re: C68 in Action! Re: [alert] Civil Disobedience Firearm Registry Re: [alert] Civil Disobedience Re: Lousy Loonie Report # Message that needs repeating CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE: Comments. Re: Justice Minister exploits safety program another response from the CFC.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:55:18 -0600 From: Bill Farion Subject: Re: [alert] Civil Disobedience Ellwood Epps wrote: > > The firearms community has always been told to protest > politely and to always stay within the law. These polite Hi; I believe that an active way would be to see if prominent local citizens suddenly found them selves in CFC's database and recieving threatening phone calls from police, verifiers etc why thier rifle barrels were only 450 mm we might get lots of attention! Also, apparently one of the public service unions in Ottawa put out posters of Likable Jean throttling a citizen with devastating effect to the mandarins! A contract favourable to the union ranks was quickly signed and the posters taken down! Can you find some of these! They would be usefull on busy street corners! Cheers Bill (;-9 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:55:28 -0600 From: "Alan Harper" Subject: Re: [alert] Re: my registration experience >December 11,1998. > >Hi Dave, > > On September 28,1998 I took my FAC application into the Parksville RCMP >office having pass my firearm Safety Course with a pass mark of 90% for the >written test and 95% for the practical test. Two or three days after the >submission I know that the two references I provide were contacted and I >don't think either of then would give me a poor report. Question what does >it takes so long for the application to be processed? As you know I paid my >$50.00 at that time and am not receiving any interest for the loan made. If >I was buying construction or any article commercially I would not pay until >performance had been provided but on the case of government they want their >money up front and then don't perform.Why this dilatory action by the >Government. > >John With all due respect, John, I suggest you send that question to your M.P. and demand some service from the government. Dave, or anyone else in this forum, could speculate about the incompetence of the feds, but your M.P. can actually apply pressure to them. My M.P. is a Lieberal, but not totally useless when it comes to getting some action from the feds. My old M.P. from Toronto, that is. Bye. Al. "There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet an enemy." George Washington to Elbridge Gerry January 29, 1780 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:55:23 -0600 From: Lee Jasper Subject: More flexible enforcement of the Firearms Act A gun auction was held in Aylmer, Ontario today (Dec.12th) which followed some rather "curious procedures". Buyers were provided with an information sheet of registration procedures upon arrival. The following is an exact copy of the registration instructions. INFORMATION "For gun registration of your recent gun purchase - you must phone the toll free number 1-800-396-3566. Have ready your F.A.C. permit, the description of rifle or long gun, serial #, if available, and agent's business # - which is _________. Also, you must call back to seller agent, at __________- the number given to you. It is to your benefit to phone this toll free # for a number for you to keep on file for yourself for future reference. Note: No gun can leave this building without an F.A.C. and it has to be valid. When you call for you registration #, have the number of the gun ready, & date of purchase, that way we can look back on our green F.A.C. book. Thank you for you co-operation." I presume "The number of the gun ready" above, refers to the sales identification number on a tag attached to each firearm. There were no CFC officials present at the auction; purchasers bought firearms, showed their F.A.Cs. and left the premises with newly acquired firearms. There were no calls made at the site to the CFC, guns were not verified, and no transfer or registration fees were paid. In answer to my query about the lack of on-site verification and registration, I was informed that this was not necessary because the guns were simply being "transferred from the consignees to the buyer" by the auctioneer. Now I wonder how many Firearms Act laws were being broken at this sale? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:55:13 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: C68 in Action! > Edmonton Journal - Saturday -- Dec 12th l998. >A wheel-chair ridden man , at home alone in his house trailer in an >Edmonton Trailer Park is attacked by the Edmonton City Police Armed >Tactical Unit. Two stun grenades are hurled through his windows. >Followed by rapid invasion of the premises . The man is hog tied on the >floor while the place is ramsacked by searchers. Nothing incriminating >is found. The police do have a search warrant - based on the fact this >man was visited by person or persons the police suspect of various >crimes. The victim later wonders , sitting amongst his now unliveable , >wrecked home - why they did not just come to the unlocked door and >knock?? Police knock, because force is the LAST resort of a police officer. A SWAT team is not a police unit, it is a military unit -- so it BEGINS with the use of force, or at least the THREAT of force. Where threat is used, the threat is usually that deadly force will be used. >I suspect this is the way we will all meet the masked , black clad >police in the future as they come to collect our property! Gordon Gordon, go down to the Edmonton Police Service main headquarters building and look at the dummy wearing the uniform that the EPS plans to put onto every police officer. It is BLACK -- the black of the SWAT team. No one seems to have noticed what a disturbing effect BLACK uniforms on cops will have. All over North America, police forces have succumbed to the siren song of "romantic" SWAT teams. Police forces that have no earthly use for a SWAT team HAVE a SWAT team. Our police are becoming more and more militarized, more and more dedicated to the use of FORCE as the FIRST alternative. SWAT team weaponry -- particularly sniper rifles and submachine guns -- are spreading to "normal" units of the police, driven by the glamor of the SWAT team. SWAT team black is spreading like black mold on a rotting peach. The rot is already deep. Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 06:51:40 -0600 From: "Jeremy Shea" Subject: Re: [alert] Civil Disobedience Pick a date and time and my car is parked in the middle of the Trans Canada highway. Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 06:51:37 -0600 From: dongres Subject: Firearm Registry I noticed the frustration of many waiting on the phone for the firearm registry. Personally I don't know (still) how registration papers look like but if ever needed I would just jot it on paper and fax to them. Once the ball is in their court they can sort it out at their leisure, whenever. (I know businesses may be different) Anyway, the fax number for Fiream Registry is 613-993-5548. ..................................................................................... And if anyone see any "sale" on single shot or (pref) side by side .410 - any condition (spec. proj.) I would appreciate to know - however E-Mail directly, please. Also single 16 Ga. any cond. Trade, borrow or whatever. I have cameras TLR, View 4x5" etc, laptop, more..... Ed "Saipan" D. /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 06:51:43 -0600 From: dongres Subject: Re: [alert] Civil Disobedience Well, this is what I've been suggesting for a long time. But keep in mind TransCanada (#17) was closed for couple of days before because of snow and other reasons like major accident. Natives barricades had effect because they LASTED LONG. Else it wouldn't make too much of a difference. Remember the near dissmisal of Fed Up II by CBC? (hint) Media is what COUNTS. When the Russian tanks rolled into Czechoslovakia it took us only few guys on motorcycles, with some screwdrivers and prybars to remove the road signs, hide under a culverts and some switched in wrong direction (those that looked "OK" compass-wise still) It took Russians three days in the counrty size of Lake Superior to get to Prague (!) where in the meantime TV & Radio station could broadcast (keyword) free. Couple of weeks later I b-lined for Austrian border - we had weasels too. NO, NO, WE ARE NOT in that situation here. But it's good to have PLAN ahead and hope it's not needed. Ed "Saipan" D. PS: About the Wendy's correspondence. Boy, I never thought the whole world is reading GUN DIGEST!!! I got encouraging E-Mails from everywhere, even Down Under. /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 06:51:46 -0600 From: Mark Hughes Subject: Re: Lousy Loonie Report # Friends, That Report is Lousy Loonie Report #23 for anyone that is keeping track. Regards, Mark Hughes NFA-NS President ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 06:51:53 -0600 From: stamp@nbnet.nb.ca (stamp) Subject: Message that needs repeating A recent posting to the digest stated >3. Follow the letter of the law, no matter what it takes. If I have to >drive 3, 4 or 5 hours to get to a verifier, so be it. and then this quote from CFC certain information, and may be found liable. Although there is nothing >prohibiting verifiers from providing their services at an individual's >home, they are strongly discouraged to do so because they would not be >insured by the RCMP while travelling, nor are their travelling expenses >compensated. There is a basic situation involved here which many people don't seem to grasp. Why? I don't know, maybe we are conditioned to be victims more than we realize. As someone who once did 4 hours of driving to get a handgun re-registered from prohibited to restricted status, it irks me when people blithely state or assume we are legally obligated to transport our guns to a verifier. If you own it, if you have it in your hot little hands, if it's yours, and the time finally comes where you must register it, then it's available for verification right where it is. Where does the law say you have to take it to a verifier? As far as I know, it doesn't. If your gun is not registered at a point in time when it has to be registered, and that is due to the fact that the verifier didn't bother to show up, how can any legal action be taken against you? If you are buying a gun, then the verifier can say "Sure, you can have the certificate for your gun if you bring it to me first, otherwise how can you transport it home legally." In other words,that situation is the same way it was when purchasing when only mainly handguns had to be registered. You didn't have it, you wanted it, and if you didn't jump through their hoops, you didn't get it. But, if you already own it, make sure they come to you, at your convenience. If anyone thinks I'm wrong, please tell me why. John Stamp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 06:52:03 -0600 From: kingsley@freenet.carleton.ca (Kingsley Beattie) Subject: CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE: Comments. CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE The purpose of this post is to solicit discussion of the pros and cons of Civil Disobedience (CD). I hope that my comments will start a thread which will help us to determine if CD is a viable option for the RFC, as well as how and when it may be used. It is not my present purpose to encourage anyone to break the laws of Canada. I would begin by defining CD as a deliberate and public violation of a law which is so repugnant that a citizen would prefer imprisonment to compliance. One must ask if it is an honourable means of resisting laws which one is not prepared to obey. I believe that CD represents the most ethical and responsible means of resisting the power of the state. In a democracy it is, in my opinion, unacceptable to use force to resist the agents of the state. Canada is a democracy. We may be unhappy with the excessive concentration of power in the hands of the PM; we may resent the fact that our" MP is a servant in the court of interchangeable dictators; we may be enraged to see our money squandered and our rights subverted by politicians and bureaucrats who manipulate us to promote their own interests; nevertheless, we do have the government we deserve. We, the people of Canada, remain the source of the power used to abuse us. So long as that remains the case, I believe that CD is the ultimate option open to those who, for whatever reason, will neither obey, nor secretely disobey, the laws of our country. Those who are addicted to power will prostitute themselves to get it and keep it. Their addiction makes them ultra sensitive to the will of the public and explains their unending drive to influence, control and direct that will. They divide to control and, to distract us, they create non-problems they can pretend to solve. If public opinion makes a 180* turn, you may be sure the pols and the clerks will race to the new front, to lead the masses in the new direction. They are a bit slimy; but, we can't organize a society without them. If my assessment of the pols and clerks is realistic, they would not hesitate to discard any policy, or program, which threatens their addiction. Massive CD has the potential to destroy the arena in which the pols and clerks play their games. They know there is no guarantee the old players would be admitted to the new arena.. Should the legal battle against registration be unsuccessful, the only remaining legitimate option will be political. The RFC has the potential to bend any power addict to its will. However, "potential" is pie in the sky until it is harnessed. I suspect the RFC has hardly begun to realize that it is under attack. It may not begin to react until something happens to grab its attention. I believe that Civil Disobedience followed by the arrest and conviction of thousands of people recognizable as part of the RFC; recognizable as friends, colleagues and relatives, would be the primer to fire the anger, which is already palpable.. I assume the hammer would fall on the first of January, 2003. There are four years to debate, decide, plan, organize, control and initiate CD. Should some members of the RFC go for this option, one assumes they would begin by identifying supporters, and activists who are prepared to go to jail. It is clear that the preferred jail-bait would be those whose families would be least prejudiced by their imprisonment. Pensioners who do not have to worry about careers, mortgages, young children, etc., would seem to be ideal candidates for the early CD campaigns. Should the movement succeed in drawing thousands of activists the number of participants could snowball, because it would become politically and practically impossible to arrest, prosecute, convict and imprison that many Canadians. It would be interesting to speculate on the nature and potential effect of a CD trial exercise at FED UP 2000. It would seem right and proper that Canadians, everyone in his/her own manner, help Mr. Chretien celebrate the Millennium. It is a bit chilly here and I would appreciate some companionship in discussing the principle and practice of CD. I hope it is clearly understood, by all participants, that nobody is being encouraged to break any Canadian law. If I were not convinced that our intentions are honourable, and legal, I would not have dared to raise the issue in a public forum. Kingsley Beattie - -- L45*22'North Lo75*30'West ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 07:16:54 -0600 From: "Donna Rochon" Subject: Re: Justice Minister exploits safety program My husband, John, and I have done just that: we have sent a very pointed letter to the F.S.E.S.O., the C.P.F.O. and the Ontario Handgun Association strongly recommending Mr. Chamberlain's immediate and permanent release from ALL duties and positions. We both have been instructors for both the Federal program and the OHA for years. Should this issue not be resolved to our satisfaction, we are prepared to take further steps and will be seeking other instructors to join us. Donna - ---------- > > > to: the Ottawa Sun > > cc: Justice Minister Anne McLellan > Mike Chamberland > the Ottawa Citizen > Dave Mullington (the Citizen) > CBC National > the National Post > the Canadian Firearms Digest > other Canadian Newspapers > > > subject: Justice Minister exploits safety program > > In a last-ditch show of bravado, Justice Minister Anne McLellan held > a news conference to celebrate the enactment of her department's > multi-million changes to the Firearms Act. > The Minister presented Canada's first gun registration card > under the new system to a reportedly gratefull gun collector, > Mike Chamberland of Sudbury, a man who apparently thinks that > the new system is a truly wonderfull thing because it saves collectors > of restricted firearms some paperwork. > What he fails to acknowledge is that only 10% of Canada's gun owners > fit his profile and that the remaining 90% will be hampered by more costs > and paperwork than ever before. More curious than that, however, is that > Mr. Chamberland is totally unconcerned with the significant costs that > will be inflicted on anyone who buys, trades or receives as a gift any > firearms under the new law. > Given the nature of his hobby, it would not be unusual for him to engage > in dozens of transactions in a given year to enhance his collection and > each one of those transactions will cost him $25 yet he has no problem > with it. But let's see, Mr. Chamberland is the chief Firearms Safety > and Education instructor for Ontario and he has a very large stake in > public acceptance of this program. This explains his eagerness to help > sell the expensive reworking of a failed handgun registry which, in turn, > is why he was picked to participate in Anne McLellan's PR stunt. > What is not clear is why the media outlets who reported on this > dog-and-pony show failed to pick up on this - choosing instead to portray > Mr. Chamberland as your typical gun enthusiast who is overjoyed with > the new system (if he is, he's one of the very few). > The FSESO is a private organization that answers to the Chief Provincial > Firearms Officer and its member instructors must refrain from making > political commentary. Mr. Chamberland has allowed himself to be set up > as the Justice Department's gun registry poster boy and that goes well > beyond political commentary. It's an incestuous relationship that shows > the kind of duplicity common throughout the Justice Ministry's dealings > on Bill C-68 - just ask the majority of police officers whose chiefs have > sold them out by misrepresenting their support for the registry. > The many safety instructors who see the registry and its bureaucracy as > a shameful waste of time, money and resources should be clamouring for > Mr. Chamberland's resignation. > > Justice Minister McLellan was quoted in a recent newspaper article - > boasting that the 1977 gun control law requiring the licensing of Canadian > gun owners had contributed to a 20% drop in homicides - or 55 per year. > Ignore for a moment that this downturn had started before the > 1977 legislation, that most murders are not committed with firearms > and that 80% of murderers have previous criminal records (most often > for crimes of violence). > Consider that Britain's 1988 firearms regulations were so severe that > private, legal ownership dropped 22.4% in 5 years but was accompanied by > a 30.6% rise in violent crime and a 117% rise in armed robbery. > Consider that Australia's recent gun prohibitions and registration system > have been followed by a 44% increase in armed robberies, a 3.2% increase > in homicides and a 300% increase in firearms homicide in Victoria - > all in the 12 month period following the changes and despite a previous > 25 year decline leading up to the changes. > > If the Justice Minister truly believes that such crime statistics can be > directly linked to gun control legislation then surely she will agree that, > with her registration system and prohibitions, she is headed for disaster. > > > > Barry Glasgow > Woodlawn, Ontario > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 07:16:59 -0600 From: "T. Zinck" Subject: another response from the CFC.... This information is EXACTLY opposite of what the CPFO told me. Now what do I do ? - -Tom > >DATE OF RESPONSE : 11/12/98 > > >RESPONSE TO ENQUIRY > >Dear Mr. Zinck: > >Thank you for your question on your expired permit. > >The letter from the Ottawa-Carleton Regional Police does not constitute a >valid Carry Permit, nor can it be considered as a renewal or extend the >expiry date. With the implementation of the Firearms Act, Authorizations >to Carry have replaced the former Permits to Carry. Applications for these >authorizations must be directed to the provincial Chief Firearms Officer. >The Chief Firearms Officers have sole jurisdiction and will personally >issue each authorization. > >If you would like more information on Authorizations to Carry, you can >consult our web site at >http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/Owners_users/Guide/GUIDEV98_en.html#CARRYING >RESTRICTED FIREARMS >or contact the CFO office at 1-800-731-4000 ext 7503. > >Thank you again for writing and taking measures to comply with the Firearms >Act. > >John Veidt Tam >Communications Group >Canadian Firearms Centre > Tom Zinck, Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA Home Page : http://www.comnet.ca/~tzinck "Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, "Politics" ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #755 **********************************