From - Tue Dec 15 12:36:45 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA18983; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:52:05 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29683; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:32:11 -0600 Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:32:11 -0600 Message-Id: <199812151332.HAA29683@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #759 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 360c873d0000af6b Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, December 15 1998 Volume 02 : Number 759 In this issue: Toronto firearms unit scandle not over yet Re: Justice Centre mailing out "info threats" to FAC holders CD more dialoge Re: Firearms Safety Week Attention Women! Relying On Official Information: Are We Culpable? Re: Information on transporting guns thru Canada? How to Defeat Bill C-68 AB Verifiers, non verifiers and ranges Registry diverting resources from real police work A Great Idea But Who Will Volunteer to be Arrested? RCMP: "NO MONEY FOR DRUG BUSTS" REGISTRATION FORMS Re: NEW GUN LAW Electronic submission of registration forms Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #757 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:11:52 -0600 From: Chris T Subject: Toronto firearms unit scandle not over yet Well it would appear that the Toronto Police Service will be receiving yet another formal complaint letter. Back in September of this year my relative went to the Toronto firearms unit to retrieve his two firearms that were unjustifiably seized many years ago. Upon receiving his two guns at the corrupt gun unit he noticed that the rear sight on one of his guns was "missing" (stolen). Well, the complaint has been fired off to Chief Boothby, Internal affairs and the public complaints bureau. There was a camera in the firearms unit at the time. I wonder if the police will kindly hand over the tape of the transaction, or maybe the camera was conveniently out of order at that time. The paper trail will be long on this one. Thanks Toronto taxpayers for picking up the tab on this investigation. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:23:48 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Justice Centre mailing out "info threats" to FAC holders >Dear Dave, >I'm a sport shooting entusiast in good ****************. The "Mistress" of >Justice has just mailed to me (as well as to what I assume are ALL valid >FAC holders) an "info threat" requiring me to register my firearms and >the referenced threat on firearm crimes( implies that failure to >register is equatable to rape, manslaughter and armed robbery) >Are we( FAC holders) the first group to be raided by the department of >INJUSTICE? This little mailing is obviously expensive and labour >intensive. WE ARE BEING MONITORED AND RAIDS WILL OCCUR, NO DOUBT ABOUT >IT!!! >Individuals calling the "bunker in New Brunswick" should be cautioned to >do so from a payphone and not from their home or place of work. Like >911, the FEDs are obviously recording conversations and using some form >of call display. It would not surprise me that CSIS is monitoring ALL >forms of communications (like this E-MAIL) to organizations such as the >NFA. >Wendy C. may not have a CSIS file, but you Dave, sure as hell do!! Of course. We try to keep them happy by running all of our comunications out in public, where they have little difficulty in gaining access to them - -- in order to keep them fully informed about how C-68 Titanic is sinking. We do not worry about them, because the NFA operates WITHIN the laws -- but in ways that they never thought COULD be within the laws. When complex legislation is written and operated by the arrogant, the ignorant, the incompetent, it should not be surprising to them to learn that a humble, knowledgable and competent organization like the NFA can and does operate WITHIN their law in ways that cause C-68 Titanic to slide under the waves. >Until I got this mailing, my level of paranoia and anger against BILL >C68 was at a 'high boil'. NOW IT HAS BOILED OVER AND TURNED INTO A STEAM >ENGINE! >I'm joining the NFA!!! Welcome aboard. Now you will be able to fight more effectively. Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:23:53 -0600 From: "Jack" Subject: CD more dialoge There seems to be some interest in civil disobedience. Whatever form this CD takes, it must win over the unconverted public. We need more ideas and time to plan. Some handgun owners got their renewal slips and guess what? Seems the issuers lost track of several handguns. This has happened to several shooters already. What is one to do ?? The way I see it is plan and simple. They will kiss your ass for the names of owners. They don't care if its legal or otherwise. Its unworkable but they are going to bend the rules. Their mandate is clear - BUILD THE REGISTRY. Work through the problems, what ever it takes, collect the 'data'. Their bureaucrats, they don't know any better. Now some 'Simon Jester', was overheard saying that flooding the registry with fictitious names or CLOG politicians names, relatives, wives and children, with an assortment of restricted firearm registrations, would be some joke. Garbage 'in' - garbage 'out', Simon Jester was saying. The CFC would be chasing all these registrars for their $ 10. Now this is so un-Canadian. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:24:02 -0600 From: "Alfred.Hovdestad@usask.ca" Subject: Re: Firearms Safety Week > Has anything further been done on this idea? The consensus seems to be that the best time to do this is in the fall. I have been busy with the NFA Saskatchewan elections, deer season, and a one week conference in Boston. I am now trying to catch up with over 1000 email messages in my inbox. My plan (assuming that I become the next NFA Saskatchewan President) is to ask the government of Saskatchewan to proclaim the first full week of September as Firearms Safety Week and to encourage other provincial NFA presidents to do the same. I talked to my local Reform MP's office about this and they are looking into some funding that may be available. I will let the digest know when I have more information on this subject. Alfred Hovdestad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:24:05 -0600 From: "Linda (KALI)" Subject: Attention Women! Any women out there interested in joing a pro-firearms "Women Only Group", please contact me direct at: kali@axion.net I am trying to find out if there is any interest out there for such a group. I know there was one started some time ago (several years?), but I believe it is now defunct. If you were part of that group, I would be interested in hearing from you. I would also like feedback on this from "female officers", so if you are out there, please contact me. We've heard from several male officers, but I wonder what we might hear from the females. And no guys, this is not a racist or biased idea, but it could well be the extra push needed. Have you ever heard of the old saying "Behind every successful man stands a woman telling him he's wrong?" We already know the media takes an interest on women's issues, so I'm just seeking yet another angle here. Let's all see where it goes! Linda (KALI) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:24:07 -0600 From: Charles Stansfield Subject: Relying On Official Information: Are We Culpable? Hi, Everyone -- I am not a lawyer, but taught it once upon a time. If memory serves, there is a provision in the law that excuses certain behaviours if the citizen has relied on the word/direction of a Peace Officer. No, ignorance of the law is no excuse, but *this* situation is not within that category. If the Peace Officer tells you to do something, or that something is fact, and you rely on his/her good judgement and knowledge as the basis for doing "Act X", you are not guilty of any act that flows from that misunderstanding. (Of course, there would be the "test of the Reasonable Person" as to what directions a citizen should follow; for instance, you would be expected to not follow through on the advice of a Peace Officer who told you it was okay to use a measure of force against someone who wasn't actively assaulting you.) However, I *don't* know how far this "peace officer" thing goes; what constitutes a Peace Officer? Are the folks at CFC in New Brunswick "Peace Officers"? Are Firearms Officers "Peace Officers"? Are Verifiers "Peace Officers"? I am rusty as hell on all this stuff. Perhaps Dave or someone who is up on the law could advise us all on these points. I am thinking, if the CFC TELLS the buyer of a firearm to accept a "phone authorization to take possession of it", and the person has a record of the telephone advice from CFC, what then? Has he/she *relied* on the advice of a Peace Officer? Anyway, more flies, more ointment... Cheers, Charles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:24:34 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Information on transporting guns thru Canada? >Can you give me information on transporting guns thru Canada ? Massive law change came into force 01 Dec 98. Situation very confused, as new law is not working at this time -- huge delays, confusion, various officials interpreting it in various ways. Wait a month and ask again. Ask: canadianfirearms@justice.x400.gc.ca -- but be prepared for officials who do not agree with their interpretations of the law. Wait a month before asking. Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:24:34 -0600 From: "Ron McCutcheon" Subject: How to Defeat Bill C-68 >In the NFA's view, C-68 can be defeated WITHIN the law. It is riddled with >opportunities for Charter defences, reinterpretations, and with gaping >loopholes. Probably true but that's only a short term solution. The CLOG will either learn from it's failure and write "better" laws next time or simply opt for complete confiscation. Ultimately, the solution to Bill C-68 must be political. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:24:40 -0600 From: Peter Cronhelm Subject: AB Verifiers, non verifiers and ranges I am still looking for guns shops confirmed to be verifiers and non-verifiers as well as ranges in Alberta. I am compiling a list for use by the listies and anyone else who is interested. Please send replies directly to me. Peter Cronhelm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:24:49 -0600 From: Lorne Gunter Subject: Registry diverting resources from real police work to appear in the EDMONTON JOURNAL, 15 DECEMBER 1998 Not one dollar of police budgets will be diverted from crime fighting, not one officer will be reassigned from patrol to a desk just so Ottawa can register all the guns in Canada. Over and over again in 1995 and 1996, then-Justice Minister Allan Rock made those promises. They have been repeated in one form or another by Rock's successor at Justice, Edmonton MP Anne McLellan. The promises were crucial in getting the Canadian Police Association to back the gun control law, Bill C-68, which came into effect December 1. The CPA represents line officers - cops. And contrary to claims by McLellan, most cops are unenthusiastic about gun registration. Some are downright hostile. Line officers in Saskatchewan and Ontario have voiced their strong opposition to registration. So Rock and McLellan have taken great pains to reassure ordinary policemen and women that registration would be almost effortless. It would occur without disruption to other police functions, without altering the spending priorities of police forces. This was always thinly-veiled hogwash, of course. But since the firearms registry opened, even that gauzy covering has been lifted. Two weeks into the registry, there are still dozens of gun shop owners who have been unable to register a single gun, which means they have been unable to sell a single gun. At Christmas, hundreds of merchants have been without income for two weeks because the Canadian Firearms Centre is in chaos. Even though the Liberals have spent at least $200 million so far on their registry system, it cannot cope with the fairly light load it has encountered to date. Most of the five to seven million gun owners in Canada will wait until the last minute, in 2002, to comply with the law's requirement that they register each and every one of their firearms, if they register at all. (Indeed, it is likely only a minority will ever register. A similar scheme in the Australian state of Victoria in the 1980s ran seven years and registered only 24 per cent of the estimated supply of private firearms.) So far, the Canadian Firearms Centre has only had to contend with mostly ordinary sales traffic. Under the new law, any time a dealer sells a shotgun or rifle, he must call the CFC in Miramichi, N.B., provide his business identification number, the particulars of the gun being sold and the buyer's identification, and the CFC is supposed to register the gun on the spot. (The procedure for handguns is more complicated.) Until the telephone registration is complete, the buyer cannot take the gun home. So the government guaranteed the process would be swift. Just a few minutes, and the new owner would be on his way, purchase in hand, buyer and seller happy. For the first week, dealers often could not get through on the government's toll-free registration hotline. Instead of minutes, hours passed, then days. Remember, we're talking simply about typical, day-to-day sales traffic, not the clearing of a massive backlog. And still the CFC could not cope. So the government set up a second line just for retailers. When they could get through on that line, the clerks who man the phones could answer few of their questions. Please leave a number, Sir, I'll ask my supervisor and he'll call you back. No return calls were received. Last week dealers' calls were greeted with the recorded message "All lines are busy, please call again later." This week, clerks are telling callers the computers are down and no registrations can be taken. We'll call you back. Two hundred million tax dollars - $200 million that wasn't spent investigating robberies or stinging drug dealers - plus three years of preparation, and the CFC can't handle the flow of fathers buying their sons their first duck gun for Christmas from the local sporting goods shop. How many hundreds of millions more will the Liberals spend to accommodate the crush of registrations they expect (I don't) in 2002? And as to diverted police resources. Yesterday a gun dealer in Ontario claimed to have met an Alberta Mountie. The Mountie was in his shop to verify the identity of the guns in his inventory. And why was an Alberta Mountie there? The Liberals had planned to have volunteer verifiers certify commercial inventories and private collections. But they have been able to attract only 200 or 300 of the 3,000 to 6,000 they will need. So, according to this dealer (the RCMP deny it), a member of the force's Alberta anti-drug squad has been reassigned to verification duty in Ontario. The Liberals appear willing, contrary to their earlier guarantees, to take resources from real police work to prop up their horrendous mistake. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:24:55 -0600 From: "Carl Roth" Subject: A Great Idea But Who Will Volunteer to be Arrested? Don Clarke's idea concerning the "Citizen's Arrest" of those people breaking the law by taking firearms home after a sale with only their "numbers" is brilliant! But who would we get to volunteer? Carl Roth Airdrie, AB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:25:02 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: RCMP: "NO MONEY FOR DRUG BUSTS" A firearm dealer from Ontario called today. He advised that 6 RCMP officers came to his shop to "verify" his existing inventory. One of the RCMP officers was seconded from a drug squad in Alberta. He complained that they had NO MONEY TO DO A DRUG BUST OR GET PHONE TAPS but that there was NO END OF MONEY for anything to do with gun registration. THE MOUNTIE TOLD HIM THEY HAD NO LIMITS ON THEIR MILAGE, THEY COULD TAKE THEIR CARS HOME AT NIGHT AND NO LIMIT ON OVERTIME!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:25:03 -0600 From: Bob Lickacz Subject: REGISTRATION FORMS Thanks to all who have given me the bar code numbers from their non-restricted registration forms. A curious phenomenon is beginning to emerge, and I will post my findings in the near future. It would be nice to keep getting this information on bar code numbers for a little while longer. So, if you would, please send me the highest bar code number from any non-restricted registration forms you have. Bob Lickacz NFA Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:30:35 -0600 From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: NEW GUN LAW > Can you help with this question, as the local S.Q here in > Montreal are unable to give me a conclusive answer to my > inquires. > I am told that under the new law I am still able to borrow > restricted firearms from a fellow gun owner by following the > same procedure as before. > Q; Am I able to store the borrowed firearms overnight at my > residence. 1. In Bill C-68, the words "rent", "lease," "loan" and "borrow" are not within the meaning of the word "transfer" (of a firearm) [FA s. 21 and 33]. 2. An unregistered firearm cannot be loaned or borrowed, because the registration certificate for that firearm must be lent WITH the firearm -- a procedure that makes the borrower the temporary "holder" of that registration certificate (which, in turn, makes it possible for the borrower to lend the firearm and its registration ceertificate to another borrower, and that borrower to another...). 3. When you borrow or lend any firearm, therefore, you must borrow or lend BOTH the firearm and the "registration certificate for the firearm" [FA s. 33(a)(ii)]. 4. There is NO requirement to report any loan or rental of any firearm. NOTHING in the "transfer" procedure applies, because FA s. 21 removes loaning and borrowing from the definition of the word "transfer," and the complex "transfer" procedure in FA s. 23, 27 and 31 does not apply at all. 5. A loan or rental can be for any perod -- even 99 years. Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:30:42 -0600 From: "Carlo Robazza" Subject: Electronic submission of registration forms Hi again, Seems like things are lightening on the CFC phone lines. I got through the first time this morning. I called to ask about electronic submission of the registration forms that are allowed. I asked how I could go about it and was told that all I have to do is put it on a disk and send it in. I asked where I get the form to put on the disk and was told just to put it in word format or something like that and put the info in point form (make, model, etc.). Then just sign the disk and mail it in. Oooohh the fun I can have with that. Now... where did I put that old Kaypro II CPM computer of mine? Carlo. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:30:49 -0600 From: dongres Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #757 > It would be very hard for a 'police officer' to argue with video taped > evidence should they abuse their authority. > Don't forget small (or othervise hidden) tapeplayer, to be ready in case of home visits etc. Sound triggered ones available everywhere but test for trigger volume setting. ................................................ > Mr. Denner has nothing to lose in this legislation...He has the market > well cornered in the Antique gun trade...Why fight?....Wait till they > come for those guns too and there aint nobody left to fight for YOU ! > Colin > The sad fact is that the Liberal goal to "Divide & Rule" is working, for the time being, unless we change it. Not easy 'though to unite as diverse groups. Ranging from Annie's Poster Boys to LUFA but everything IS possible. We have to use reason. Think Mahatma Gandhi if you will. It is also possible to unite PC and Reform simply because people WANT it. - ------------------------------ > Easier said than done! Reform MP's are constantly trying to obtain > this information! I feel the Liberals are deliberately hiding costs - > for instance the hiring of verifiers and hundreds of new employees, > the costs of upgrading computer systems etc. So far in excess of 200 > million dollars and probably closer to a half billion if all the costs > associated were known! And the massive attempt at People Control > > > called C68 stumbles blindly along! Health Care, Education and > Policing be dammed! Gordon As I see it ALL calculations, ours and theirs, are waaay off. 7 million gun owners will have to spend on the average $150 and many will spend far more, course etc. We are already at over $1 Billion. NOT included is fighting this crap, time and unseen loses. If we don't it's like saying our money is nothing. Would any identifiable group pay over billion dollars BEFORE mentioning any cost to them? I doubt it strongly. THEN comes the Justice Ministry estimate which should be conservatively multiplied by 9. That is the number they overestimated RCMP's crime report, so you can be sure they'll underestimate spending by AT LEAST that much. They worked long & hard to build their reputation, don't strip it! Any business knows a project is bound to cost lot more than even the most conservative estimate, this is how we ended up with 700 billion debt. This is something we could tell Joe & Jane on the street. Anyone can easilly check that you are telling the truth. By the way, do we have the picture of the "Debt Clock" from Ottawa? (useful) Cannot find it right now. > .................................................... > How does it come that the CPFO is an OPP, when the Harris goverment > joint Alberta in the challenge of the bill C-68 ? Can anybody explain. > > Eugen PCs are second best, nevertheless just PCs. Vote (federally) the real McCoy and you save yourself a bundle, actually A BUNDLE. Headaches too. 'United Alternative IS the way'. .............................................................. > Also, if anyone can recommend a good book on Media Relations, I would > appreciate knowing about it. > > Regards, > > Tom There's one handbook "How You Can Manipulate the Media" by David Alexander. Covers TV, Radio Newspapers. (from Paladin Press) > ------------------------------ > > I would suggest that a road slowdown whereby we hand out information > sheets rather than stop traffic totally would be better. By stopping > traffic, we will probably lose some additional support. I'm not > saying a road block is a bad idea, just that I think a slower > escallation than what is proposed might be in order. > > rod If there was a large sign at the road side saying "Information for ALL Canadians"(w/Canadian flag) and few guys/girls with leaflets, I believe lot of people would slow to pick one for curiosity if nothing else. Depends who'll be standing and distributing. Everything counts. 6'4" 300 lbs. guy down to 12 year old girl? Depending where. Gas stations are the best place - the traffic ALREADY slowed down ;-) I had local gas station collecting those petition signatures. There are many other places. We have to THINK. But most of all what is on that Flyer has to be easy understood by anynone, and soon as he/she looks at it. Flyers tailored for city and rural areas or a combined one starting with city "view" of the issue. Ed "Saipan" D. /\/\/\/\/\/\/\ ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #759 **********************************