From - Fri Dec 18 11:34:29 1998 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA25109; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:28:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01568; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:12:42 -0600 Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:12:42 -0600 Message-Id: <199812181612.KAA01568@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #766 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 360c873d0000b3d8 Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, December 18 1998 Volume 02 : Number 766 In this issue: CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE: & taxes Re: Civil Disobedience? New suggestion. Let'em know it isn't working Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #762 Re: 30 round magazine Re: Justice Centre mailing out "info threats" to FAC holders Re: [alert] OOOPS!! SPREAD THIS ONE... Calgary dealers on side with challenge Re: Relying On Official Information: Are We Culpable? Re: Big Brother IS watching... NFA Primer on Inheritance now out. quality of service complaints FN FAL kill ineffective legislation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:03:47 -0600 From: "John E. Stevens" Subject: CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE: & taxes At 06:00 PM 12/17/1998 -0600, you wrote: > >[There is always the "if we all resisted what could they do to us?" >argument, but we have to have a large segment of the population willing >to go along. You can stop payroll deduction, but the rules state you must >pay at least 3/4ths of your taxes every 3 months or something. -- Skeeter] > It sounded to me like he was advocating complete non payment. I think the rules now are source deductions from 80% (I think) of the income sources. Not exactly sure of the numbers. But it isn't or wasn't a dollar value two years ago. I had the joy of a penalty assessment because I had all my taxes deducted from one source and nothing deducted from three others. I actually had a refund coming except for the penalty on the amount that would have been payable from the other three. And Yes, I did find a senior manager that agreed that such was ludicrous. Solution was to have a buck deducted from the other sources. Equally ludicrous. But it's the government. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:03:56 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: Re: Civil Disobedience? New suggestion. Wonderful Boris- but most of us are not fluent in hexadecimal , Cryillic etc. We will be stuck with using the legal land description as our address???? A little more expensive to overpay them $3.00 then take them to Small Debts Court to recover it ?? And remember - keep on picking up your maximum numbers of forms and DO NOT REGISTER! Smile ! And rememberr you do not know everything! Phone the Firearms Center often and ask , ask , ask! Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:04:23 -0600 From: Kyle and Barbara Berry Subject: Let'em know it isn't working After 17 days of frustration, a partner in my favourite gun shop had had enough and called our MP's office (Jay Hill, Reform). Not too long after chatting with Jay's staff, she received a call from one of Annie's assistants, asking for the necessary information to help process the gun in question. It's really necessary to encourage our favourite dealers to call their MP's about the difficulties they're encountering. If things are not going as they are supposed to, beyond just the usual birthing difficulties of a new system, (days instead of 10 min. would certainly qualify) they need to call, and we need them to call. Get out, encourage and support your dealer in calling. I continue to find it surprising how reluctant people can be about calling their MP's office if they have never done it before. The office staffs are friendly and helpful. Having a large number of these kinds of incidents handled through an MP's office and documented can't hurt the case for the "Dealers' Challenge". I suspect Annie's staff won't always jump in and help, but it won't hurt for them to get their hands a little dirty, and to find out first hand what a screw up this system really is. The customer's reaction to all this crap was typical of a firearms enthusiast. "I'm not going to let the bastards wear me down. I'm buying ANOTHER gun." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:04:15 -0600 From: Rick Lowe Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #762 Skeeter said: > Rick Lowe was not "run out of town". He's still with us. A few > people disagreed with him. He's not the first and won't be the last. We I will post here for the first time since ending any input to this group to say that Skeeter is absolutely correct. I was not "run out of town" by anybody, so it is not fair to accuse DAT, Skeeter or anyone else of that. The moderator was more than fair with me - even when DAT, who wouldn't publically address the strategy I suggested, attempted a little end run and privately complained that my posts would break up DAT's "follow me" leadership, Mr. Buckner refused to censor me. Instead, he invited Dave to respond to my suggestions and questions publicly - which Dave did not do at the time. Isn't that right, DAT? So no, I was not "run out of town" - although DAT tried to accomplish that aim through the back door rather than respond to my suggestion in public. Mr. Buckner was and no doubt remains a very honourable man. I left here because I realized that DAT would never address an idea that hadn't sprung from his fertile mind, and that his deliberate silence had killed it anyway. And too, I was tired of the hate mail and death threats I was receiving from some brave heroes here on the list - all, curiously enough, anonymously sent through email remailers. They were no doubt a very tiny minority of those who attend this list, but they disturbed my wife and when she opened a snailmail version of the same it was the last straw. And to be fair, my persistent efforts to get DAT to address the idea were becoming annoying to the membership at large. It was obvious they would run out of patience with my efforts before DAT would run out of patience in his studious avoidance of the issue. So Skeeter is entirely correct in his defense of how I ceased posting to the group - I was not banished or banned or removed from the list. > It is easy to get everyone to delay registering as long as possible and > easy to goad the gov't into starting before they were ready. It would > have been much harder to get everyone to register early. Skeeter and I will have to disagree on this. If DAT had decided to do this, LOTS of people would followed him. There are lots of people who own firearms who are, ultimately, going to register sooner or later rather than become criminals. If DAT would have given them a purpose and reason for registering early which would have attacked this system, they would have taken it. Maybe not all, but "only" three or four million registrations is quite a few indeed. > Registering early would not have been a real test for the system > as they just get to play with our applications for four years. To use a "DAT-ism"... hogwash! They get to "play" only if you let them. Why you would register and then let them avoid dealing with them is beyond me. What do they do when you advise you have sold what is a registered gun that you haven't received the registration for? The grounds that the "dealer challange" is based on do not exist soley for those who possess a business license. And Privacy Act requests have to be dealt with - and I have the results from previous Privacy Act requests I have sent in to prove it. Including the Privacy Commissionaire informing the RCMP that he would be taking them to court if they did not provide me with my requested personnel files within 30 days. I got my records and what not within two short weeks of the date of that letter. Just curious, when the NFA takes whatever strategy Dave decides on in the future, Skeeter, are you going to let them "just play with" whatever documentary and other monkeywrenches you throw at them? Or are you going to make them act on them? So what's the difference?" > A sudden flood at the end of 2002 will be much greater a test than the > strains they have been suffering at startup. "Hogwash". As I said when I proposed this, any computer system like this is at its' most vulnerable when it starts up and all the hidden bugs come out. It has to go from zero to a hundred miles an hour without even being broken in, staff getting experience, etc. And it makes the crippled CPIC system all the more vulnerable. The NFA has obediently helped the people setting this system up by helping to ensure that the only registrations to come in initially will be from those unfortunate firearm owners who don't have the comfy option of not registering. Those people, as they register their trickle of purchased firearms, will be the ever increasing stream that helps the Feds work all the bugs and glitches out of their system in preparation for the end. Despite the impression that DAT gives that everybody working for the government is incompetent and stupid, that is not so. There's lots of smart fellers working over there, and lots of smart fellers that can be hired. If you do believe they're all stupid and incompetent, just remember that to date, THEY'RE the ones winning this battle, not us. That doesn't mean you give up and quit, but an arrogant assumption that the opposition is stupid and incompetent is a sure way to disaster. Sun Tzu gets quoted here often enough, so perhaps a review of what he said about underestimating the enemy is in order. "RED WARNING". The Feds will be more than ready for that "sudden flood" of firearms in 2002 - they'll have had four years of practice and troubleshooting. They will probably also just have another federal election safely behind them, with another clear majority and an entire term for voters to forget any havoc that might happen. And of course, the delayed registration won't put the additional financial burden and public spotlight on the system and its' failings that immediate registration would have, will it? They've got four more years to hide the financial failings and prepare for 2002. > Maybe it would crash the system, but why not wait? For all the reasons given above. Not to mention that common sense says, when you're in a fight with somebody, you don't fight by his rules and according to his timings. There was a reason the Feds gave us so many years to register, and it wasn't out of sympathy for us as they stood there with a ready and workable system that was capable of handling the immediate registration of all firearms. I suggest that they did so because their system could not register everything in one fell swoop right now, nor could they handle the financial burden that would impose. We have given them the reprieve they needed. > Registrations that must be done now can still be AtI** > requested to death, if desired. **AtI: Access to Information act Yes. Even if nothing else, people should do that. On everything. Registrations, FAC applications, Canada Pension Plan payments, EI pay deductions, income tax returns, GST refund assessments, migratory game bird licenses, saltwater fishing licenses, etc. If it is personal information on you that the government has somewhere, you have the right to demand they spend taxpayer money to give you copies of same. Of course, the person advising you might only speak the OTHER official language, so you might demand they be translated from French to English or vice versa before being forwarded to you. It will cost the government more, but you have the right to demand this. Unless somebody feels compelled to start a personal flame war, I will now return to lurk mode and watch developments. But I am here to say I still believe it was an excellent strategy that should have been a major part of a multi level attack on this legislation. I still don't believe that relying on the Reform party to form the next government is going to do it, and I believe the NFA is going to have as much luck having this legislation thrown out by a superior court as they have had getting safe storage laws and other gun control legislation repealed. Simon Says "What's the plan if the four years DOES allow them to get ready for the last minute registration flood and Reform DOESN'T win the next election? Can somebody tell me what the plan is then?" Oh yes... Merry Christmas to all of you, and the very best to you and yours in the New Year! Bye... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:04:37 -0600 From: Peter Kearns Subject: Re: 30 round magazine Paul Meyer wrote: > > After Dec 01, 1998, I ordered a 30 round fixed magazine for an SKS. Old US > stock, still legal to sell in US. > > It arrived at Customs in Vancouver Dec 109 and was duly confiscated as > "prohibited weapon." > > Question: Is there a way to pick this up, modify it so it can't hold more > than 5 rounds, and then be legal? > Question: does the "gap" between Dec 01, 1998 and Dec 15 when the old Order > in council was rescinded and the new one not in effect apply here? Peter Kearns wrote: You have lost it Paul. There is no regulation that allows the release of an overcapacity magazine or any prohibited item for it to be altered to conform with the law. However if you want another that they can't seize, then that is another matter....... Ask your U.S. supplier to strip the magazine to it's component parts. Box, spring, follower and floorplate and have the supplier describe the shipment as "magazine parts." No parts other than enhanced automatic sears for AR-15 type rifles and bullpup stocks are prohibited from entering Canada. (refer to Customs Notice N-177) The importation of all parts required to construct an overcapacity magazine is not prohibited, but the assembled magazine is as defined in the Criminal Code. My company proved this point recently and successfully imported fourteen Ak 47 magazine parts sets and the parts of two 74 round drums! Regarding your other question about the OIC "gap." You may or may not have a valid claim but would it be worth pursuing for one magazine? I realise the "pain in the ass" value is great, but how far could you pursue it? Remember folks, the NFA told you what your rights are! regards, Peter Kearns NFA Communications Simon says: The laws don't have to make sense, just consider who the people are who write them! > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:03:39 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: Re: Justice Centre mailing out "info threats" to FAC holders Be assured Wendy is being monitored! Movements of Persons known to be in the business of People Control are carefully monitored - living standards , compared with declared income etc. Merry Christmas Wendy and your employees. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:03:49 -0600 From: Alan Harper Subject: Re: [alert] OOOPS!! SPREAD THIS ONE... I hear that you can buy a converted auto, under C-68, even if it is an FN FAL. You cannot buy a semi-auto FN FAL, because it is not covered by the converted auto status. Bye.  Al. Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum If you seek peace, prepare for war There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet an enemy. George Washington to Elbridge Gerry January 29, 1780 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:04:17 -0600 From: dhammond@cadvision.com (Dave Hammond) Subject: Calgary dealers on side with challenge I just finished a long chat with the key people at Wholesale sports and Russell's sports in Calgary. They got the dealer challenge info pack I faxed them and they both will be joining the dealer challenge. From this point forward they will be keeping records of lost business, sales and impediments that are the direct result of registry system backlog. Welcome aboard Brad and Tony. D.Hammond (NFA)(RFOA) "Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys" -(P.J. O'Rourke, from "a parliament of whores") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:03:36 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: Re: Relying On Official Information: Are We Culpable? Did not hear this myself but am told that one of the Verifiers at the Edmonton Gun Show identified himself as a 'civilian' RCMP. Never heard of the term - but he may have been misled himself. Annie calls herself Minister of Justice - so any kind of psuedo naming may be taking place within the Liberal Disorganization. Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:03:53 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: Re: Big Brother IS watching... Must be a warm feeling - knowing they are concerned about you . Don't know how Annie feels about bricks and pepper - the local mail pickup guy asked me to drop my next at the main post office instead of the local pickup box! Local convienence stores in Annies riding now have polite signs near the trays of pepper packets - For Instore Use Only! Always happy to comply - we are putting pepper into the envelopes right there in the store! Gordon " ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:09:13 -0600 From: "Jim Hinter, SHOP NFA" Subject: NFA Primer on Inheritance now out. We have produced a Primer on Inheritance and Firearms Law. This is available free of charge from the National Firearms Association. If you would like a copy, please send a self addressed stamped envelope to: NFA Box 4384, Station C Calgary, Alberta T2T 5N2 and we will mail you a copy. This is important information and should be included with your will so that you can protect your property and assets. Jim Hinter Coordinator NFA Calgary ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:48:23 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: quality of service complaints Here's an excerpt from Garry Breitkreuz' paper, "Firearms Act Regulations Fail Treasury Board Policies" dated July 22, 1998. TREASURY BOARD - QUALITY SERVICES, EFFECTIVE COMPLAINT MANAGEMENT But what if you also have a complaint is about the "quality of service" of a particular department (e.g. Department of Justice, Canadian Firearms Centre, etc). Well, in 1996, the Regulatory Affairs Division of the Treasury Board Secretariat published another Guide called, QUALITY SERVICES, Guide XI, Effective Complaint Management. The Introduction of this document states: "This document deals with complaints about government processes and not with complaints about the content of government policies and laws. To set complaints in context, government departments exist to serve the public and the public has a right to expect quality programs and services. Most people agree on some basic principles of good public-sector service, including economy, efficiency, effectiveness, fairness, impartiality, prudence, responsiveness and, more recently, continuous improvement." The government's Quality Services Guide lists four types of complaints: The first type involves the complexity and length of processes to introduce or amend federal regulations. The second type of complaint relates to certain mandatory regulatory services related to international agreements, such as the North American Free Trade Agreement. The third type of complaint relates to products and services of regulated entities. The fourth type of complaint relates to the actual service delivery. Public, industry, and other public sector employees have the right to quality service, and, therefore, have the right to complain if it is not forthcoming. Complaints of this nature are not limited to those involved in regulatory areas, but in all aspects of service to the public. The guide also explains what each federal government department should have to properly manage complaints from the public: The complaint management system should * Be easily accessible and well publicized; * Be simple to understand and use; * Allow speedy handling, with established time limits for action, and should keep people informed of the progress of their complaints; * Ensure a full and fair investigation of complaints; * Respect clients' desire for confidentiality; * Provide effective response and appropriate redress to complainants. If anyone feels their questions, concerns, and/or correspondence to any government department (e.g. Department of Justice, Canadian Firearms Centre, RCMP, etc.) are not being handling in accordance with these Treasury Board principles, policies and guidelines, please contact: Innovative and Quality Services Treasury Board Secretariat 300 Laurier Street Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0R5 Fax: (613) 957-7875 Note: Copies of the Treasury Board Quality Services Guide XI, Effective Complaint Management are also available at this same address. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:46:21 -0600 From: Scott Bradley Subject: FN FAL If I happen to own a rifle that is/was prohibited such as an FN FAL that is not registered, would the recently announced amnesty be an opportunity to register it? Would the situation be any different if I was grandfathered or not for that class of firearm? Any and all opinions appreciated, and thanks for the responses from all of you about transporting non restricted firearms. Scott Bradley wbradley@tbaytel.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:12:38 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: kill ineffective legislation NEWS RELEASE December 17, 1998 For Immediate Release DEPT. OF JUSTICE BUNGLING KILLING 7,000 FEDERALLY LICENCED FIREARM DEALERS "Firearms Law Sunset Act would put public safety first and kill ineffective legislation - not businesses." Ottawa - Last week, Garry Breitkreuz, MP for Yorkton-Melville, won the Private Members Business lottery and, in a way, so did responsible firearm owners. Breitkreuz' Firearms Law Sunset Act (Bill C-278) was drawn to be debated in the House of Commons on March 9, 1999. "My sunset law would automatically repeal any gun control measure after five years unless it has proven to be cost-effective at improving public safety, reducing violent crime and saving lives," said Breitkreuz. "The government broke a new record by proving their new firearm registry was ineffective after only five days!" "Since December 1st, when Bill C-68 came into force, firearm dealers have been calling, faxing and e-mailing my office with complaints about the bureaucratic bungling at the Department of Justice's Canadian Firearms Centre (CFC)," reported Breitkreuz. "The Minister promised that firearms sales would take only 10 or 15 minutes to register, but dealers tell me it's taking days. Customers are walking out of their stores in frustration. Operators answering the 800 number phone lines can't provide answers to the simplest questions regarding the legislation. Supervisors fail to return phone calls, computer systems crash and poorly trained bureaucrats don't know how to run the computer programs. In the meantime, 7,000 federally licenced firearm dealers are not able to sell firearms to their customers, all of whom have been investigated and authorized by the government to buy firearms," explained Breitkreuz. "Chaos reigns in the Department of Justice and legitimate businesses and their families are suffering. Some Christmas present this is. I knew it would be bad but this is absolutely ridiculous." "Sunset laws like this are the only way of guaranteeing that legislation is revisited by the House of Commons. If it's working - extend it. If it's not working well - amend it. If it's not working at all - repeal it," said Breitkreuz. "The government never predicted the failure of even one business in their Regulatory Impact Assessment Statements filed in the Canada Gazette with their firearms regulations. Now it's clear hundreds of businesses will fail due entirely to government incompetence. Some cost-benefit analysis! If Canadians had known the truth, if they had known that there were more cost-effective crime fighting alternatives, would they still support registering every duck hunter's shotgun? No," exclaimed Breitkreuz. "The government has always said that the objective of their gun control laws is to save lives, improve public safety and reduce violent crime. It's time for the government to put your money where their mouth is. Let's have the Auditor General put their gun control laws to a public safety test. If they pass, the law stays. If the law fails, then it is automatically repealed. By their own estimates, in five years the government will have wasted almost half a billion dollars on their gun registration scheme. That should be long enough for the Auditor General to show what a colossal waste this registration system has been. Wouldn't it be reassuring if all legislation had to pass a cost-effectiveness test?" asked Breitkreuz. -30- For a copy of Bill C-278, please call: Yorkton: (306) 782-3309 Ottawa: (613) 992-4394 e-mail: breitg0@parl.gc.ca ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #766 **********************************