From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #784 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, December 29 1998 Volume 02 : Number 784 In this issue: Re: re registration S.W.A.T. assault and Intimidation of Civilians [part 1] S.W.A.T. assault and Intimidation of Civilians [part 2] S.W.A.T. assault and Intimidation of Civilians [part 3] S.W.A.T. assault and Intimidation of Civilians [part 4] Re: Restricted firearms registration [none] Rep of South Africa - Deterrence Handgun Clubs in Ontario ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:40:35 -0600 (CST) From: "James R.C. Cox" Subject: Re: re registration The phone # for the CFRAS is 613-993-5235, fax is 613-993-5548. Note though that they want you to go through your "local" registrar, and that they only want to send copies out to those of you who have inadvertatly 'destroyed' your green cards.... Good Luck, James ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:54:03 -0600 (CST) From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: S.W.A.T. assault and Intimidation of Civilians [part 1] following a letter submitted to Edmonton City Council opposing a new range for these 'shock' troops! Please read it carefully ! Comments are welcome! Gordon Happy New Year! I am submitting this as a follow-up to my initial submission about the Chief Constable's request for a super range. I must state that I am definitely not opposed to the Police receiving reasonable training in handling their issued handguns. The Service handgun is presently the Glock of 9 mm cal. The Glock is designed to kill emphatically! It has replaced the simpler revolver , generally of .38 cal and more likely to wound than kill. Here I will interrupt myself to state the Edmonton City Police safety record with the Glock is fantastic. While Police in Other Canadian Cities report accidental firings and even wounding with the firearm we hear of no accidents in the City Force. Toronto in contrast , has had three police injured by this firearm accidentally discharging in the past year- in Police stations. Police in other countries report dangerous incidents with this firearm also. It seems from these reports the gun is simple to fire, so simple that it has fired unexpectedly numerous times and several Police Persons have been severely injured! Yet this firearm is often drawn and pointed in the direction of people suspected of some crime. From a liability point of view we are fortunate our Police are so well trained there are no reported incidents like this here! This enviable safety record has been achieved without a 'Super Range'. But lets not be misled, the super range with popup targets simulated buildings is not for simple target practice. It is Assault Training for so - called SWAT teams. The purpose of these machine pistol equipped , masked , black clad and poorly identified is Attack and Intiminadation! Just think of the news reports - most recently in a West End Trailer Park . A wheel chair occupant of a trailer is attacked by have a stun bomb hurled through his window, as the SWAT attack Team charges in . He is hurled to the floor and bound. His crime ? Police 'believe' his brother "may" have left some sort of incriminating evidence there during a recent visit. It was noted in the News releases the doors were not even locked! This is not the kind of policing I envision in my City or my Country ! This is an unnecessary violent attack and intimadation on a citizen! In this case a crippled citizen even. This Ladies and Gentlemen is the S.W.A.T. assault Team! This is what the 4 million dollar gun range will produce and what I emphatically oppose. The Police are undermanned. This leads to problems such as this attack. I witnessed this first hand in Prince George, BC and Prince Rupert, BC in the sixties. Police were in short supply during 'boom' cycles and became short tempered because of the frustrations involved in working under duress. In 1966 Police resorted to 12 man platoons in downtown Prince George, BC. Exactly like military patrols by Canadian troops policing in Bosnia! Add black combat type uniforms and gear - machine pistols, masks and extremely poor identication marking and call it S.W.A.T. [cont'd in part 2] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:57:24 -0600 (CST) From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: S.W.A.T. assault and Intimidation of Civilians [part 2] [cont'd from part 1] Here I would like to insert a short history on Policing - Its origins and purposes. Our system in Canada was based on these: FOUNDING PRINCIPLES OF CANADIAN POLICING By John A. Gayder It is interesting to note that the formation of the first paid police force received strong opposition. The public was very suspicious of increased government intrusion into their lives. In 1822, Sir Robert Peel came up with Nine principles of Policing to calm their anxiety. These fears are best summed up in this passage from a report to one of the Royal Commissions hearing on this matter: "It is difficult to reconcile an effective system of police with that of perfect freedom of action and exemption from interference, which are the great privileges and blessings of society in this country [these] are too great a sacrifice for improvements in police, of facilities in detection of crime, however desirable in themselves. From: The Police Force, L.F. Hobley, Allman and Son, UK, 1971 Regardless of such skeptical voices, Peel did go on to establish the first "bobbies" or "Peelers". Police forces in all Commonwealth countries can trace their ideological bloodlines back to Sir Robert Peel: "Canadian police forces have never formally subscribed to any set of principles of policing. Nevertheless, the principles on which Canadian policing developed are generally the same as those of the British police. They were first enunciated by Sir Robert Peel in England in 1822 when he was working toward the establishment of the London Metropolitan Police, which claims to be the first organized paid police force in the English-speaking world. From: Policing in Canada, William and Nora Kelly (Toronto: Macmillan Co. 1976) Up until very recently, police recruits in Canada were expected to be familiar with his tenets before graduation from training. Unfortunately, with the passage of time, his Nine Principles have been watered down or co-opted by selective editing to endorse programs Peel himself would not have supported. The ideological sentiments contained in his original principals are not perfect, but are far better than the ideology fueling current trends in policing. Canadian policing would be safer and more effective if we would return to their usage. [cont'd in part 3] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:59:54 -0600 (CST) From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: S.W.A.T. assault and Intimidation of Civilians [part 3] [cont'd from part 2] Here are Sir Robert's timeless precepts, complete and unabridged, as found in: A Short History of the British Police, (London: Oxford University Press, 1948). PEELS NINE PRINCIPLES OF POLICING: 1 To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and by severity of legal punishment. 2 To recognize always that the power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behavior, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect. 3 To recognize always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of willing cooperation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws. 4 To recognize always that the extent to which the cooperation of the public can be secured diminishes, proportionately, the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives. 5 To seek and to preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustices of the substance of individual laws; by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing; by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour; and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life. 6 To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public cooperation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order; and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective. 7 To maintain at all time a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen, in the interests of community welfare and existence. 8 To recognize always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the state, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty. 9 To recognize always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them. ------------------------------------------------- Note 1)To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and by severity of legal punishment.[ This basically says that the police make better policemen than the army. Today in Canada however, we see the police increasingly wanting to become more like the army; witness the raid on Marstar by black clad SAS wannabes backed up by a helicopter.] Note 2) To recognize always that the power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behavior, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect. Please read back and review the first two carefully! As well as the 6th. [cont'd in part 4] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:02:04 -0600 (CST) From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: S.W.A.T. assault and Intimidation of Civilians [part 4] [cont'd from part 3] I would also like to mention another frightening indication by the Chief Constable - this to a public meeting of Community Volunteers. There was a suggestion of public surveillance becoming the Policing of the future for us! As I understood it ,it would consist of a manned surveillance center monitoring an area with surveillance cameras. Before we are asked for huge sums of money for this I would like to mention that several former East Bloc countries are presently taking these systems out of use as being undemocratic. I am sure they can be purchased for pennies on the dollar! Note 1 - references to Marstar are about a legitimate business licensed by the Ontario Government. There were firearms in the premises - they are Firearms Dealers - without any history of violence etc. But they somehow warranted a full scale attack by heavily armed SWAT assault teams! Would legitimate Police use such a dangerous ploy in support of anti -gun lobbyists - this SWAT Team did! Not in Edmonton you say! Perhaps I am unlucky - but once in Hermitage a woman sought refuge at our home from an assault and on my advice called Police from my phone! Guess what! A swarm of gun drawn Police arrive - my children's room searched and them in terror seeing me held at gun point against a wall. In the Police confusion I was almost arrested as the woman's assailant - despite the protestations of my wife! A couple of years later in Westmount - as I turned out the lights for bed another Police Assault team storms my house - searching and arousing my children etc. I insisted , braver now , no gun in my face, on phoning a Patrol Sgt. He apologized and had the team lined up on the sidewalk berating them for being at the wrong address, as I watched the person they sought calmly walk down the street! A range to train Assault Teams Edmonton hardly needs. Likewise machine pistols carried by black clad , masked men referring to citizens as 'perps' or 'targets'. The law has not changed, no matter what a Policeman thinks , a citizen is an innocent citizen until he is convicted in Court! And the law of averages will catch up - an innocent citizen WILL be shot by a SWAT Team. Better to put the money into an already overburdened Police Force than using it to play at soldier. No Super , FBI/CIA - Hollywood Range Please! Existing Ranges are fine for handgun training. Machine gun training is not necessary, extremely wasteful of ammunition and man hours, and very damaging to the environment. Ask about the lead contamination problems at the Cloverbar Range for example! And the costs now to clean it up ! Perhaps my memory is slipping, when exactly was the time criminals used machine guns in Edmonton? Another reason not to rush into the Super Range Business? Well the present Chief Constable and his successor have strongly supported C68 a Federal Bill to control people and their Property - including Firearms. $300.00 million or more has been spent on this to date. It will end criminal use of Firearms, it supporters contend. If this is so why spend millions on Firearms training or Police Assault Teams that are practically redundant! This is the declared belief supported by the Chief Constable - lets wait and see if he is correct! In conclusion let me state I am not anti Police. I am a member of the Queen Mary Park Neighbourhood Watch Program - co-chair in fact. I also represent Queen Mary Park on the Ave. of Nations - Crime and Safety committee. I served in the Canadian Armed Forces during the Un Sponsored tour of North and South Korea, and later was a Detective in the RCMPolice until discharged as Disabled. I strongly support the Police but see no earthly reason for S.W.A.T. teams descending on citizen 'perps' and 'targets'. ADENDUM With reference to "Lessons from Tiananmen Square" by Neal Knox [Guns & Ammo September 1989] it might appear that this type of action could not or would not happen in Canada. Should that thought have crossed your mind may I remind you of the following events!: (1) Winipeg 1919 Excess force by R.N.W.M.P. backed by machine gun armed troops in the streets. This to break a strike now referred to as Bloody Saturday. 100% federal government involvement. (2) The action taken in 1935 by the Bennet government to ban peaceful citizens from using the trains to reach Ottawa to protest unemployment at the seat of qovernment.. This action resulted in the Reginia Riot that year which was suppressed by local and federal police again. This begs a Question Do our elected politicians fear a knowledgeable and possib1y well armed citizenry capable if required to protect itself against loss of freedom from either inside political abuse or from international aggression? The recent attacks and intimadation of unarmed civilians by Police acting under orders of the Liberal Government do nothing to belay my fears of these S.W.A.T Assault Teams and the drift towards Police Control of our State! (City) Politics!! I implore the Mayor and Council- NO special training facilities for these Assault Police and an end totally to them, by disbanding them and returning them to normal Police Duties! Thank You, Gordon Hitchen #9 10721 113st. Edmonton,AB T5H3H9 [403]426-0183 electronic mail : acardin@v-wave.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:04:18 -0600 (CST) From: David A Tomlinson Subject: Re: Restricted firearms registration >Hi... back in August I bought two cap and ball handguns at an auction >and promptly applied to register them at the local R.C.M.P. detachment. >I own other handguns and have always used the reason of being a >bona-fide collector on the registration forms but this time the officer >told me that I could not put this in and instead he typed "owns other >handguns" in the field. Should this be of concern to me? Of course it should. It is not HIS Application to Register -- it is YOURS, and it is going in OVER YOUR SIGNATURE. Do NOT allow officious bureaucrats to alter the information that YOU sign as being YOUR application. Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:05:59 -0600 (CST) From: "David A Tomlinson ubject": nfadat@telusplanet.net Subject: [none] >[I] was musing on the Bill 68 registration thing. The criminal >offence of entering erroneous info in the new registration application >forms came to mind as I was cleaning a 1916 Erfurt Luger. >What does one enter for manufacturer of this little gem ? Luger ? >Erfurt ?? Erma ??? What Model? Parbellum, P 08, 08, Luger, Army, Standard? What Serial number? On a mismatched Luger, it is NOT the Serial number on the "frame" that should be used -- it is the Serial number on the "receiver" - -- the U-shaped piece that the barrel screws into. Why? Because when you strip the barrel-receiver-toggles off the pistol, you are holding a complete and perfectly functional single-shot pistol which can safely be fired by pressing in on the forward end of the sear with your thumb. No, the toggles will NOT come open when you do that -- because there is noting there to START their upward movement. The recoil is a bit vicious, though. Is the Serial number valid? No, not if the Luger is a German military Luger. They duplicated Serial numbers every year, and from factory to factory. The Serial number on the receiver is often incomplete -- lacking the letter which often appears only on the frame, or on the frame and on the barrel but not the receiver. A commonly duplicated Serial number is worthless if you are trying for "unique identification" -- and unless you HAVE "unique identification," a registration system is worthless. >The very next cleanup was a Walther P-38 stamped "byf". Was this >piece not manufactured in a Mauser plant ? Can one of you Verifiers >tell me for sure ? Walther P-38s were made in three factories -- byf, cyq and ac. A few late ones were made by svd. If you have the entire list of German manufacturer codes, you can "identify" the manufacturer -- or can you? The code letters appear ONLY on the slide -- which is an uncontrolled spare part which may or may not belong on that "frame or receiver." How many "verifiers" can spot the difference between a Walther P-38, a P1, and an HP? >These thoughts led me to head for my meagre little collection of the >K-98 German military rifle. These are all commonly refered to as >"Mausers" 'cause I believe good old Paul Mauser and friends developed >it. I have several stamped as follows: dot, dou, bnz, ax, bcd, 660, >and so on. There ain't no way, podner, I am going to take a chance on >naming "Mauser" as the manufacturer of these rifles on the new >registration application, for reasons some collectors may recognise. >Is there a Verifier out there that will take this chance ? Bear also in mind that those Mauser rifles are not only a hotbed of duplicated Serial numbers, but used at least five SYSTEMS of Serial numbering -- and that NO ONE knows, today, when or how those Serial numbering systems jumped from one scheme to another. Dave Tomlinson, NFA -- CLOG: all Conservative or Liberal Ottawa Governments ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:07:10 -0600 (CST) From: Rod Regier (by way of David A Tomlinson ) Subject: Rep of South Africa - Deterrence If you happened to catch the news segment, an entrepreneur in Johannesburg, RSA is conducting an unintentional experiment in deterrence. The gentleman in question decided to develop and market a defense against the wave of armed carjacking that is affecting his fair city. The product is call "The Blaster", and what it involves is a vehicle operator foot activated flame jet configured to interdict the zones to the immediate outside upwards of the front doors. It is being marketed as a non-lethal defense, which is a bit of a stretch for a flame that would completely envelope the torso of a would-be attacker. 25 units have been installed to date, with interest being expressed possibly for fleet usage by some trucking organization(s). The local law-enforcement agency (presumably after consulting with their prosecutors) has said there's nothing they can do about the sale and deployment of the product, although they warn that any anyone deploying it "for real" will have to prove self-defense if it comes to a court case. The interesting part is going to be if there is indeed a drop in carjacking, or just a change in modus operandi. If there is a drop in carjacking, this will demonstrate once again that even permitting a small percentage of the population to equipment themselves with an effective deterrent to confrontational crime provides a protective benefit to the *entire* community. This has a potential benefit in the "right to carry" realm in terms of re-affirming "proof-of-concept". It used to be under the previous regime that CCW for firearms was permitted in the RSA in their cities (probably only to whites). I don't know if that policy continues under the new regime. Unless very strong attention to tactics are utilized, firearms alone are not very effective as a defense/deterrent against carjacking in city driving conditions. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:02:03 -0600 (CST) From: "Larry Whitmore - Ontario Handgun Assoc." Subject: Handgun Clubs in Ontario If anyone is looking for handgun clubs in Ontario, they should contact the office of the Ontario Handgun Association at , (905) 238 3090, fax (905) 238 5269. We have over 250 clubs and contacts in our data base and we communicate with them on a regular basis. We also have regional directors throughout the province who can direct a new participant or transfering shooter to a club suitable to their shooting requirements. I wish everyone a safe and happy holiday season. Larry Whitmore Executive Manager ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #784 **********************************