From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #946 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, April 1 1999 Volume 02 : Number 946 In this issue: Re: REGISTRATION OF POLICE & MILITARY FIREARMS another question about minors and the fac and black powder guns Old 22 rifle Notice of Firearms Transfer and Registration Urgent - Need copy fo NFA Practical Firearms Control Plan Re: re Bug Sniping Letter to Ottawa Sun Editor Re: Slagging ROBINSON Quiz "LIBERALS HIDING HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS" Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #945 SIR Policy Re: Slagging ROBINSON Green Slips??? Re: Ammo Discrepancy Re: No More Licences after 2003? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:06:34 -0600 From: MJ Subject: Re: REGISTRATION OF POLICE & MILITARY FIREARMS If one were to apply this logic to the entire gun registration issue, then why aren't individuals, especially former military and police, trusted to keep " a very complete inventory of [their] own firearms" and therefore " not required to be registered"? If unbiased logic was used, then documentation should be the same as the requirement to keep financial records supporting income tax declarations. Every FAC owner would be required to keep a list of firearms in their possession. Failure to produce such a list if the firearms were stolen would be an offence, much like failure to produce supporting documents for an audit. The inconsistent logic in the foundation and application of this law makes many us wonder about the rest of the agenda. This implied lack of trust in law-abiding Canadians is the fundamental flaw in this people control [gun] law. MJ At 06:09 30/03/99 -0600, you wrote: >> I am, however, aware that the military keeps a very >> complete inventory of its own firearms, which may go some way towards >> explaining why they are not required to be registered. >> >> I hope this is of assistance. >> >> Yours truly, >> >> Kathleen Roussel >> Communications Group >> Canadian Firearms Centre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:06:39 -0600 From: Brodie Otway - Manomano Subject: another question about minors and the fac and black powder guns I have a question, I am 15 now and If I were to go in and challenge the test and pass would I be eligible for my fac when I turn 18 or would I have to take it again. I do not want to get my minors posession permit, when it comes to pass I will just have my father register my guns in his name then when I turn 18 and I get my fac he will transfer them to me, it will be cheaper in the long run because the course is quite expensive and you need the course, not just the tests for the minors permit. On black powder firearms, do you need your restricted firearms permit to purchase single shot black powder pistols? thanks Brodie Otway === ride horses, drive horses, do everything horses ICQ#5657070 e-mail: brodie_o@yahoo.com We shall overcome C-68 "Save a tree, kill a beaver" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:07:10 -0600 From: "G.Morris" Subject: Old 22 rifle Wondering if any of you knowledgable readers know anything about the maker of a 22 cal rifle labelled Modele 1912 Brevete S.G.D.G. This gun is a single shot bolt action and is a cute little 'boy's' rifle. It measures only 34.75" overall with a barrel length of 18" and has a neat little 'stream-lined' stock. Gerry Moderator"s Note: Please respond directly to Gerry. Thanks DJP ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:06:06 -0600 From: "Craig Goodman" Subject: Notice of Firearms Transfer and Registration I bought a Remington pump 12 guage on January 30th and have just recieved my Notice of Firearms Transfer and Registration today March 30th (not bad, only 60 days to generate one piece of paper). In this document I am asked to confirm/correct the information on the form and return it. This has raised a number of questions: 1) By doing so, am I exposing myself to the same risk as completing the Application to Register Non-Restricted Firearms (Long Guns) (for individuals) page 4 to the best of my knowledge? 2) What happens if I do not return this document at all, or it becomes "lost" in the mail? 3) Should I make the changes to the information to register this firearm as frame/receiver only or wait until the registration certificate is issued? Any input regarding these questions would be appreciated. Thanks Craig Goodman Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:06:25 -0600 From: Marcel Boudreau Subject: Urgent - Need copy fo NFA Practical Firearms Control Plan I have called, e-mailed and faxed the NFA admin office in Calgary and I have not heard back from them yet. I appreciate they, like the rest of us, are busy so I'm posting this message. What I need is a copy of the PFCP pronto. I have made arrangements to meet with my local MP next Tuesday (6 Apr) to discuss the C-68 and gun control in general. I have about 15 minutes with her and I want to leave a copy of the plan with her. My MP, by the way is Ms. Alexa McDonough, Leader of the NDP. I'm not a member of the party but I am a concerned constituent. I don't know what will come from this meeting but every bit helps. Is there someone here in Halifax who can get me a copy? I can also receive one by FAX or by E-Mail. I will forward the $5.00 on to the NFA however I get the copy (I have to order a ball cap and a few books from them anyway). I'll also be driving up to Truro on the weekend to check out the Valhala gun shop so I can pick up a copy on my way if anyone in that end of the province has a copy. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Marcel Boudreau, CD, P.Eng. boudreau@chebucto.ns.ca Home Page: http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~boudreau/Profile.html Macintosh Software Public Download Area (PDA) Manager Chebucto Community Net, Halifax, Nova Scotia O- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:06:29 -0600 From: MJ Subject: Re: re Bug Sniping Somehow I suspect that our "misdirected masters" took this into consideration when they decided that gun owners were an exploitable, fragmented, minority. They counted on the petty infighting to keep gun owners from becoming the vocal majority they could be. Gun owners are being manipulated by very clever and intelligent people who have researched and planned this well. MJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:49:28 -0600 From: "Tom Zinck" Subject: Letter to Ottawa Sun Editor Hello. I just sent this letter to the editor of the Ottawa Sun : RE : Alleged Ace Crew member jailed http://www.canoe.com/OttawaNews/OS.OS-03-31-0017.html I am outraged at this light sentence given to the dope-pushing gang member Andrew Ombiga as described in the March 31 article by Richard Roik!! Do you call this justice ? Is it justice when this punk gets 2 years in jail for pushing crack? Under the new Firearms Act, I , a law-abiding tax payer, would get 5 years for forgetting to register my antique single-shot .22 rifle !! There is something seriously wrong with Justice in this country!! - -Tom Zinck Nepean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:49:31 -0600 From: "Trowell" Subject: Re: Slagging ROBINSON Re: SIR...and >>It is not the case for other businesses such >>as Canadian Tire, which has had to leave >>the firearms market. ***************************************************** Business is the enemy too now is it? Canadian Tire didn't HAVE to leave the firearms market. Just like Terry Robinson hasn't HAD to. Terry Robinson, whom I've never met or had the pleasure of doing business with, sounds to me like somebody who not only is putting his money and effort where his mouth is but is taking alot of flack for doing you all a favour. Isn't he using HIS money to defend his own right to MIND HIS OWN BUSINESS? Doesn't Canadian Tire have the money to STAY in the firearms business IF THEY CHOOSE to? When did being in business become a crime? Any one of you could become a business if you wanted to. All you have to do is file the papers, and you're in business too. He must have worked his butt off to make his company what it is and he must have had to fight like hell to keep it. So why should he have to fight you as well? MCT ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:49:38 -0600 From: "Larry Going" Subject: Quiz The question is asked: "Is Bill C-68 (the Firearms Act) driving gun sales underground? on: RFC Sask. Web Page: http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/going/rfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:49:45 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: "LIBERALS HIDING HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS" NEWS RELEASE March 31, 1999 For Immediate Release LIBERALS HIDING HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS IN SPENDING ON GUN REGISTRY "Detailed Part III estimates are supposed to be 'comprehensive and accurate' but they're a farce." Yorkton - "Open government will be the watchword of the Liberal program," promised the 1993 Liberal Red Book (page 92). "Six years have passed and we're still waiting," reported Garry Breitkreuz, MP for Yorkton-Melville." What disturbed Breitkreuz this time was the appalling lack of detail in Part III of the Department of Justice estimates for the 1999/2000 fiscal year. "Every year it's the same, the government tables estimates in the House of Commons, but the lack of detail makes it impossible for anyone to tell what they're spending the public's money on," reported Breitkreuz. "Last year, we had to wait until a Justice official reported in the media that the Liberals were spending $133.9 million implementing the new firearm registry. Even then we couldn't get the detail about where and how these millions were being spent without filing an Access to Information Request. If the Minister of Justice is so proud of her new registry, why is she hiding the truth about how much it's costing?" The government calls Part III of the Estimates, Report on Plans and Priorities 1999-2000. "If they don't provide enough budget information, how can Canadians see that 'programs are cost-effective' as the Minister promises in her message on page 1?" asked Breitkreuz. "On page 2, the Deputy Minister of Justice goes on to promise that the report is 'comprehensive and accurate', however, the key cost information that the public, the media and opposition parties need to determine if this is true, is hidden from the public. This makes the report a sham." "In the report, the Minister proudly repeats her government's propaganda: 'Reduction of the incidence of violent crime through the implementation of firearms control measures.' An interesting statement considering the RCMP recently admitted that they don't even keep statistics on whether firearms used in the commitment of crimes are registered or not. The Minister also conveniently ignores telling the public how much the Liberal 'gun control measures' are going to cost," revealed Breitkreuz. "Last summer a Justice Dept. official reported to the media that the new firearm registry will cost $50 to $60 million a year to operate. This year's detailed estimates only provide information on spending of a little over $10 million. Where's the other $40 to $50 million being spent? The public has a right to know!" In an Access to Information Request, Breitkreuz asked the RCMP how much they were spending to implement and enforce Bill C-68, the Firearms Act. The RCMP responded that Dept. of Justice "handle all expenses, including RCMP generated expenses and they are all project related at this time." The RCMP told Breitkreuz to ask the Dept. of Justice for the information regarding "implementation and enforcement of the government's gun control laws." The RCMP did reveal one important piece of information. The average number of full time employees working for the RCMP in the Canadian Firearm Registry has jumped from 40 in 1995/96 to 190 in 1998/99. And, that doesn't account for the RCMP personnel working in the provinces that have opted out of the administration of the Firearms Act. "That's a lot of full time RCMP pushing paper instead of patrolling our streets and highways," concluded Breitkreuz, "Remember when former Justice Minister Allan Rock promised that no police would be removed from the street to implement the firearm registry?" - -30- For more information, please call: Yorkton Office: (306) 782-3309 Ottawa Office: (613) 992-4394 e-mail: breitg0@parl.gc.ca References to Firearms in Part III of the Estimates Report on Plans and Priorities 1999-2000 Department of Justice Firearms: The firearms system went into effect December 1, 1998. Follow-up on all proclaimed sections of the Firearms Act and Regulations is now underway. The Treasury Board has granted authority to the Department of Justice to enter into the necessary operational agreements with the provinces and federal partners that will ensure long-term administration of this initiative.(Page 18) Expected Results - Implementing the government's safety and security agenda through a balanced approach to criminal justice (Page 18) * Youth justice reform; * Innovative partnerships and citizen involvement to develop a wide societal strategy to deal with crime and violence; * Crime prevention; * efficiency and effectiveness through criminal procedure reform measures to deal with global crime; * Reduction of the incidence of violent crime through the implementation of firearms control measures; and * Development and implementation of measures that are consistent with public safety to decrease reliance on costly correctional systems. Illicit Firearms Trafficking: A key goal of the new firearms legislation is to combat the illicit trafficking of firearms. Countries cannot deal with this phenomenon, frequently connected with organized crime, in isolation and high levels of international cooperation are needed. To support Canada's domestic effort the Department is playing a leadership role in the development of a new firearms protocol against illicit firearms trafficking which is to be part of the UN Transnational Organized Crime Convention. (Page 20) Contributions to the provinces and territories for the Firearms Program (Page 33) Forcast Spending 1998/99 - $20,390,074 Planned Spending 1999/2000 - $10,390,330 Planned Spending 2000/01 - $33,509,928 Planned Spending 2001/02 - $21,391,282 Full text of report: http://canada.justice.gc.ca/Publications/budget/1999/plapr7_en.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:54:16 -0600 From: mred@cujo2.icom.ca (iCOM Subscriber) Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #945 >The process of transferring ownership and registering took roughly an hour. >Once a potential buyer paid a $25 registration fee and showed an F.A.C., >registration officers physically inspected the gun and processed the serial >number. An hour? How lucky can you get.?At the Paris, Ontario auction, last Sunday over 200 guns were sold.IT TOOK APPROXIMATELY 4.5 HOURS FROM TIME OF PURCHASE BEFORE ANY ONE GOT THEIR tan # I`m certainly happy now, that I didn`t buy any.I certainly don`t want to be looking over my shoulder for the rest of my life ,waiting for the government goons to pick the right time to charge me for committing a criminal act by recieving a gun without the registration slip. And not only that,when you get the form they mail to you,you are supposed to check it for accuracy and send it back if it is incorrect. How`s that for passing the buck and putting the onus on the purchaser,?(and liability)if you make a mistake? Welcome to your new home, the crowbar hotel,(free meals ,TV, and all the sex you`ll ever want or need), all you new gun purchasers. It would be nice if we could actually charge and arrest all the purchasers and the CFC miscreants and put them all into jail awaiting trial. This would certainly wake up the rest of the country in a hurry; but of course that will never happen. Who`s going to arrest RCMP officers? Surrounded by two hundred gun purchasers?who are already pxxxxd off about the gun control act and the long wait? not me. THIS WAS ON A SUNDAY, MIND YOU, AND MIRAMICHI WAS ALL SET UP WITH WORKERS ON OVERTIME JUST TO HANDLE THESE SALES.Imagine the chaos on a normal working day when stores all over Kanada would be calling in for their numbers? Ed.Ontario.Kanada? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:34:14 -0600 From: Terry.Robinson Subject: SIR Policy Thank you for advising us about the mis-information regarding S.I.R.'s (and Terry Robinson's )support for Bill C-68. S.I.R. is completely against the bill. One of the only components that we endorse is the mandatory jail term for firearm offenses. Our position is that the program is ridiculously expensive, a major intrusion into the affairs of honest citizens, a logistical nightmare, and with no proven history of success in countries where it has been implemented. We have been very consistent in our opposition to this legislation since its introduction. We have made presentations to the Senate sub-committee: we have phoned and sent many letters and faxes to M.P.'s and Ministers; we have met with and written to the Mayor of Winnipeg; and we have made numerous statements to the media clearly expressing our opposition. The Global newscast that is being referenced regarding comments attributed to me is WRONG! The only comment that I have made on the air was (when asked about how our customers felt about the Bill) "They are irritated. They don't like the plan. A lot of people were originally threatening to boycott." All other comments made during this newscast were made by other people. Please, be assured that we will continue to voice our opposition to this backward piece of legislation! Terry Robinson General Manager S.I.R. Mail Order & Sports Store ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:34:22 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: Re: Slagging ROBINSON No one is slagging Terry Robinson I feel. There are those who perceive he is helping the liberals by publicly espousing their propaganda about the success of the registration , which we all know is floundering! I have had personal communication from this man, although I have not seen the often mentioned press articles. I am afraid I cannot make up my mind - so far! But it seems people who actually deal there in person are becoming quite suspicious ! My own contacts with this Company have been via catalogue purchases only ! Gordon Moderator's Note: I think that we have spent enough time on SIR, so all future postings will be going to Chat. DJP ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:34:33 -0600 From: Howard & Sharon Sims Subject: Green Slips??? I have in front of me a Firearm Registration Certificate for a firearm recently purchased. No it is not green, it looks, feels, and smells like a credit card complete with magnetic strip and bar code. What I like is all the information regarding the firearm was not given by me. Seems I'll need a credit card wallet for all my firearms registration certificates. Regards to PAL instead of FAC, dear Katty Roussel says my application was still pending as of Dec. 1,1998 that is why I got a PAL instead of an FAC. Funny, I renewed one FAC in June 1998, 21 DAYS LATER my renewed FAC arrived at my door. Second FAC renewal was submitted Sept. 26,1998 DID NOT arrive until Feb., 1999, five months later????? The incompetents of our government never ceases to amaze me. Without prejudice Howard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:34:36 -0600 From: Ken Pisichko Subject: Re: Ammo Discrepancy On Wed, 31 Mar 1999, sir wrote: > Ken: > In response to your gun digest comments of 03/30/99. S.I.R. does not > record proof of age i.d. when ammunition is being purchased. Originally > we were advised that this was a requirement of the legislation and we > suspect that a staff member or two may not have been advised that > recording of the information is not a requirement. We only require that > proof of age be shown when the purchase is being made. > Our apologies for any inconvenience. > Regards > S.I.R. Mail Order > I am personally glad that this is no longer the case with your firm. However, at one time some staff apparently asked members of my club to provide proof of age AND personal information like the address was recorded. Thank you for clarifying this with your staff, and especially with the general public. We all know there is no legal requirement for the recording of this personal and private information. Regards, Ken Pisichko ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:34:43 -0600 From: rmcreat@istar.ca (Michelle Traver) Subject: Re: No More Licences after 2003? >I was told by a FAC/FAL safety course instructor that after 2003 there >will be no more Firearms licences issued, period. If you don't have a >gun by then, you will never get one. I haven't been able to confirm >this, I sent an email to the CFC a month ago, with the only response >being "we got your mail" I think he has bad info, but like I say, I >can't confirm either way. Does anybody have info on this? On page three of the regulations you will find the sections pertaining to firearms licenses and who is elegible to possess a license. According to some legal advisors, the interpretation of section 7 (complete) indicates that no NEW APPLICANTS will be accepted after Dec. 31, 2000. However, just because a person holds a firearms license DOES NOT mean you may keep it. Privacy is a sacred thing, Michelle Traver (owner) SSAC HACS + NFA member NCBCS Spokesman http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/9460/index.html 604-253-3311 fax 604-255-2202 1708 E. 1st Ave. Vancouver, BC V5N 1B1 ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #946 **********************************