From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #72 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 37247a2500003f70 Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, July 15 1999 Volume 03 : Number 072 In this issue: NEW! NFA Primer for New Shooters Please write to the NZ Press Re: Greater Vancouver shooting ranges CILA Letter to the National Post Editor Anybody Buy From Del Selin Gunsmithing? Hollow point handgun ammunition Re: True Reason for Gun Controls. Gun Control CFC Response to SGCA Letter Re: Unique Canadian Situation. business interuption US Lawsuits claim their first victim Re: Quizlet Re: Quizlet Re: FAC required to sell? Re:Storage of ammo. BC "Red Alert" ! ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:12:55 -0600 From: "Jim Hinter" Subject: NEW! NFA Primer for New Shooters The National Firearms Association has just produced a "Primer for New Shooters". This four page information handout is perfect for individuals and Gun Clubs to hand out to prospective new shooters. If you are interested in more information, please contact jhinter@nfa.ca Jim Hinter Coordinator National Firearms Association (403) 640-1110 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:43:46 -0600 From: "DM" Subject: Please write to the NZ Press I forgot to put the address of the Dominion, Wellington's daily paper added below. DM You may have heard that New Zealand is about to introduce registration in spite of all the evidence?? A few hundred letters from Canadians to our newspapers would be of enormous help in our campaign to head off this evil and mendacious legislation. letters@herald.co.nz and editorial@press.co.nz and feedback@star-times.co.nz letters@dominion.co.nz Many thanks in advance, David. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:44:57 -0600 From: Chris Schultz Subject: Re: Greater Vancouver shooting ranges Coquitlam has a range, which should not be too far for you. As far as I know this is the only one in the lower mainland, but I could be mistaken. Port Coquitlam & District Hunting and Fishing Club Box 78051 Port Coquitlam, BC V3B 7H5 Phone : 604-942-9736 The cost is $95.00 per year. Give them a call and they can give you directions to the site. I forget the actual road that it's on. If anyone else knows of any other ranges in the Lower Mainland, I'd love to hear of them. Christopher ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:51:20 -0600 From: Al Dorans Subject: CILA Letter to the National Post Editor CILA / ICAL Defending Canada's Heritage Letter to the National Post Editor In his article "Canada is No.1 in the world again" (National Post, July 10), Eric Beauchesne indicates that for the sixth straight year Canada ranked at the top of the United Nations Human Development Index for quality of life. Norway ranked second and the United States ranked third. In a United Nations firearms survey, the United States ranked No. 1 on the countries with the greatest number of firearms. Norway ranked second and Canada ranked third. With 170 countries, the probability of all 3 countries being in the top 3 in both categories is highly remote. This suggests a very strong relationship between the presence of civilian firearms in society and safe societies. In Canada, Mauser and Buckner (1997) found that Canadians use firearms 64,000 times a year to protect themselves against criminals and animals. They estimated that 3,300 lives are saved each year because of civilian gun ownership in Canada. For every life lost with a firearm in Canada, 40 lives are saved. Guns are a net benefit to society. In the USA, law professor John Lott Jr. conducted the most rigorous study on the relationship between gun control and violent crime. Using extensive FBI statistics for all 50 states and 3,054 counties over 18 years, Lott concluded in his book: "More Guns, Less Crime" (1998). He found that the civilian ownership of firearms deters violent crime and mass killings. In states where gun availability was higher, crime rates were significantly lower. Criminals fear armed homeowners. Apparently, non-gun owners benefit from a "shield of protection" provided by those who own firearms. This is especially effective, if criminals have no idea where firearms are located. For every life lost with a firearm in the USA, Suter reported 65-75 lives are saved. In Canada and the USA, the crime rate has been falling for the past 7 years. Thus, civilian firearms contribute to a safe society. Professor Al Dorans Director of Operations, Ottawa Office Canadian Institute for Legislative Action / Institut Canadien pour l'Action Legislative National Office: P.O.Box 44030, 600 Grandview St. S. Oshawa, ON.=A0 L1H 8P4 Ph: (905) 571-2150 Fax: (905) 436-7721 e-mail: teebee@sprint.ca Ottawa Office: 27 Cedar Grove Crt.=A0 Nepean, ON. K2G 0M4 Ph: (613) 828-8805 Fax: (613) 828-6967 e-mail: aldorans@magma.ca Home: <http://www.cila.org A proud member of the World Forum on the Future of Sport Shooting Activities / Forum du Monde sur le Futur d'Activites des Sports des Armes Feu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:52:43 -0600 From: Rick Lowe Subject: Anybody Buy From Del Selin Gunsmithing? If any of you other guys purchased a short barrelled handgun, probably a Basque, from Del Selin Gunsmithing in Vernon prior to 01 December 1998, I would like to chat with you via private email. Ditto for anybody else who purchased any similar firearm from any other dealer just prior to 01 December 1998. Like to hear from you as well. The CFC appears to be of the opinion that none of these kind of firearms purchased from dealers in 1998 were ever registered by them (the CFC), and thus they bear no requirement to register mine. I beg to differ, and already have several photocopies which demonstrate otherwise. Either the firearms officers involved or I can't read, I guess... Not sure which one, but my eyesight seems to be working fairly well as far as I can tell. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:54:40 -0600 From: Andy Krywonizka Subject: Hollow point handgun ammunition I recently attempted to purchase some 9mm hollow point ammunition from SIR Warehouse Sports Store in Winnipeg. I was told that they were not allowed to sell hollow point ammunition to the general public, only to law enforcement agencies, and that this was LAW. I think this is pure bull. They told me that they had some hollow point on the shelf at one point and a firearms officer came in, saw it, and was apparently "horrified" that it was there. I called my local CFO and he basically confirmed what I had been told by the people at SIR. I know you cannot import more than 1000 rounds of hollow point handgun ammunition without an explosives import license, but what's this about not selling it to the public? I don't recall this being anywhere in the Firearms Act. The actual ammunition in question is Remington Golden Sabre 9mm. Does anyone know how I can go about purchasing some of this ammunition? If not from SIR, is there another distributor in Canada that sells to the public? Thanks in advance for any assistance. Andy K. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:56:02 -0600 From: Tom Cohoe Subject: Re: True Reason for Gun Controls. Dan MacInnis wrote: > Social unrest > will prevail (See Winnipeg General Strike 1919) as more and more people > are unemployed, lose their homes and cars, before we reach this stage, > we must take away any means of fighting back, when in desperation they > rebel, try to protect what little they have left.. Right. The "elites", some of whom make their living selling us cars are setting up a situation where the masses will not be able to keep their cars let alone buy new ones. Your tales of apocalyptic conspiracy might make a good basis for a Robert Ludlum thriller, but they are a little, uh, ... loony as serious analysis of the forces at work in Canada and the world today. There is no grand conspiracy. Tom Cohoe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:02:13 -0600 From: "Rick Kokiw" Subject: Gun Control Presently we are undergoing legislation in Canada for "Gun Control". Actually, the legislation is in effect and the feds claim it is working just fine. John Q. Public was told it would only cost a few million dollars to impliment. To date there are only thousands of guns registered for a cost of $216,000,000. But, hundreds of people now have a job. Gun registration in the UK actually saw a net increase in crime. In the USA guns are readily available in most states with little or no verification. The FAC(Firearms Aquisition Certificate) which came into being here in Canada in 1977 was presented by Warren Allmand trying to make points with his Verdun constituency. Since then, several amendments have been enacted which albeit may have been a pain for a legal gun owner but illegal owners have continued to flaunt the laws and commit crime. The latest travesty is Bill C-68 which makes a normal Joe a criminal for not registering his/her gun. The legislation was passed as an omnibus criminal law to cure all evils in one fell swoop by our then Justice minister, Allan Rock. Challenges have sprung all over the country in protest. Estimates now range in the billions in the long term for costs. Hunters and shooters are forced to register their arms or turn them in. Hilariously, the registry bufoons are breaking the law with almost every gun they register. In-accurrate info appears on many registration forms. That might include calibre, barrel length, action or manufacturer. Knowledgeable gun owners have had these errors corrected or at least tried to. The all-knowing registrars know better though because they have a compact disc which describes 15,000 different guns. Handgun owners with registered guns could also become criminals. The 25 calibre pistol I bought as a winter re-build project is now illegal unless I bought it before a certain date. The hand guns I own will never be involved in a crime-they are duly registered and most properly stored above and beyond the lawfull requirements. But, criminals will not register their arms. They will not stop committing crimes with firearms. The enlightened criminal today plays with the Internet and a computer. The Registry with my name can be hacked and any guns registered to me can be seen. A criminal offence committed with one of my guns by a third party could result in criminal charges brought against me because despite all my precautions to safely store all my firearms and related items, Under Bill C-68, I am just as guilty as those that committed the crime. Do you in New Zealand want this? rkokiw@cancom.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:05:14 -0600 From: Larry Luzny Subject: CFC Response to SGCA Letter Below is a copy of the receipt of acknowledgement letter I received from the CFC. This letter is in response to my June 10, 1999 letter (posted in the Canadian Firearms Digest Friday, June 11 1999, Volume 03 : Number 029) concerning improper identification of the SGCA. Also, this illegal identification of the SGCA was incorporated into the Access to Information Reply given Dave Tomlinson (File 99ATIP-10443-Reply) which he posted in the Canadian Firearms Digest (Saturday, May 22, 1999, Volume 03 : Number 012). If you remember the early registration discussions (bog down the system concept) in the Canadian Firearms Digest back in the latter part of March 1998, I indicated ATIP requests don't necessarily get answered correctly. I guess there is "proof in the pudding". On the lighter side, a couple of the "old boys" felt I should post this letter. It seems there are generally two ways to address the issue at hand, or better still, "Tame the Beast". You can "Grab the Bull by the Horns" or you can "Seduce the Canine". As we are dealing with a fellow named Dick and his sidekick's name sounds like Valin-tino... you do the math. ___________________________________________________ June 22, 1999 Mr. Larry Luzny Gun Show Manager Saskatchewan Gun Collectors Association P.O. Box 1334 Regina, Saskatchewan S4P 3B8 Dear Mr. Luzny This is to acknowledge receipt of your June 10, 1999 letter. Thank you for bringing your concerns about the mis-identification of your organization to my attention. Yours truly, Richard G. Mosley, Q.C. Assistant Deputy Minister Criminal Law Policy and Community Justice Branch ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:06:28 -0600 From: Tom Cohoe Subject: Re: Unique Canadian Situation. Dan MacInnis wrote: > No, mon ami, the Elites are worried, and use the forces of the federal > government to disarm the populace, and it is behind schedule. Brian > dropped the ball in the eighties, Jean is playing catch up. > > [...] > > And please, do not bore me with the court system protecting us, these > ARE part of the Elites I speak of. Right. And please stop boring me with your theories of overarching, all-controlling conspiracies by the elites. Tom Cohoe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:07:56 -0600 From: Ross Spagrud Subject: business interuption Sirs, does anybody know a reference for a law that forbids legislation from making it impossible for a lawful business to operate?? It seems to me I have seen references to this in the past. If known please post asap. Ross Spagrud ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:09:50 -0600 From: CILA / ICAL Subject: US Lawsuits claim their first victim CILA / ICAL Defending Canada's Heritage - ---------------------------------------------- Calif. Gunmaker Seeks Protection LOS ANGELES (AP) - A California gun manufacturer filed for bankruptcy protection after being named as a defendant in lawsuits by cities across the country seeking to recoup the costs of gun-related crime and violence. Davis Industries, a Chino, Calif., company known for producing small, cheap handguns, filed for Chapter 11 protection in May, court records show. A call on Thursday seeking comment from Davis Industries was not returned. More than a dozen companies have been named in lawsuits, including well-known gunmakers such as Smith & Wesson, Colt, Glock, Beretta and Sturm Ruger. Cities including Los Angeles, Chicago and New Orleans filed the suits, accusing gunmakers of failing to equip weapons with adequate safety devices, and marketing them in ways that allow handguns to fall into the hands of criminals. The suits are patterned after lawsuits that forced cigarette makers to pay some $246 billion over the next 25 years to reimburse states for the cost to public health agencies of treating tobacco-related illnesses. - ---------------------------------------------- Distributed By: Canadian Institute for Legislative Action / Institut Canadien pour l'Action Legislative National Office: P.O.Box 44030, 600 Grandview St. S. Oshawa, ON. L1H 8P4 Ph: (905) 571-2150 Fax: (905) 436-7721 e-mail: teebee@sprint.ca Ottawa Office: 27 Cedar Grove Crt. Nepean, ON. K2G 0M4 Ph: (613) 828-8805 Fax: (613) 828-6967 e-mail: aldorans@magma.ca Home: http://www.cila.org A proud member of the World Forum on the Future of Sport Shooting Activities / Forum du Monde sur le Futur d'Activites des Sports des Armes a Feu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:11:11 -0600 From: Dave Tomlinson Subject: Re: Quizlet >WARNING !!! This is a selfincriminating question. It is >against the law if you answer YES. >>"Do you keep a loaded firearm in your home for protection?" No, it is not. It is a crime to STORE a loaded firearm, but not to keep one handy while you are at home. It is a crime to load a firearm anywhere that you cannot lawfully discharge it, but fortunately there is no such place in Canada. If a person is attacking you with a firearm, knife or axe, for example, it is perfectly lawful for you to shoot him with a firearm. It is even more lawful if you can remember to shout "YOU ARE UNDER ARREST!" because if you shout that, and he continues to be a serious threat of death or grievous bodily harm to you or those under your protection, the protectons applicable to a police officer suddenly begin protecting YOU. Readings: CC s. 494(1) and (3) plus CC s. 25(1)(a). David A Tomlinson National President, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:24:19 -0600 From: "Gordon" Subject: Re: Quizlet maybe! I do not think it is against the law for me to load my gun in my home- and have it in my possession. It would most likely qualify as being in use and not stored loaded! An interesting situation I think! Since the advent of C 68 I keep no firearms in my home . No doubt I am on lists so it is safer for me to not actually have Firearms here . They are stored in such a manner I suppose they are actually in my control , if not physical possession. The masked , black uniformed gang will have to go after my bank records to find them! There is no records of firearms here either other than the fact I do possess a license (PAL). I am not paranoid just aware of the current thinking in the Just Us Department . And expect a sudden lashing out in vengeance as the Bill C68 thrashes around in its death throes! hope I am wrong , but better safe than sorry! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:25:11 -0600 From: Dave Tomlinson Subject: Re: FAC required to sell? >No, no one needs an FAC/PAL to SELL a gun. The FAC/PAL is needed ONLY WHEN >OBTAINING a gun. Robin Leech Right, and wrong. The regulations require the seller to tell the CFO the number of his licence or FAC/PAL, but the regulations "deem" him to have done that if he does not have one. It doesn't HAVE to make sense. It's GOVERNMENT POLICY. David A Tomlinson National President, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:26:09 -0600 From: Dave Tomlinson Subject: Re:Storage of ammo. My PCFO >tells me that only grandfathered individuals can sell to other >grandfathered individuals. And since individuals who bought >these hand guns after 1995 are deemed NOT to be >grandfathered, they can not sell these guns.??? WRONG. Any person who has such a firearm, bought after 14 Feb 95, HAS A LICENCE that covers it. That licence is an invisible "deemed" licence, granted by March 1998 Firearms Act Regulations, regularion 13, "Conditions of Transferring Firearms and Other Weapons Regulations," page 33. Such a person also has ANOTHER invisible or visible "deemed" licence, granted under CC s. 98(1) or (2), and MAY have a third licence, granted by FA s. 120. It doesn't HAVE to make sense. It's GOVERNMENT POLICY. David A Tomlinson National President, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:30:52 -0600 From: "NCBCS INC." Subject: BC "Red Alert" ! ! Herein Column was sent to me by geri_silva@email.com by fax. I have downloaded it to regular email so that everyone can read it. It is a perfect example of why BC is on side with the "Lieberals" implementing [CFA Loony Tunes]. It is this type of "bull whump", that has been fed over and over "To The People". It is a perfect example of why hundreds of millions are being blown on the "Loony Tunes" and not going to the vitally needed social, health, education, law enforcement, programs and services. It is a perfect example of why the majority of people are hurting here in BC. Why whole communities are going under. Why there are constant cut backs of services and support programs that the government should be funding. This is why NCBCS is here and hitting hard at the lies and disinformation that is being peddled "To The People"! NFA, RFOC, BCWF, HACS, LUFA, and all the other clubs and organizations represented on these lists take note and let us all speak with one voice loud and clear. To coin a well worn phrase " If you Love Your Property and want to keep it and use it in FREEDOM, then start yelling NOW !". The Truth Is Out There ! Research, Expose & Take it to the "People". Rod. Bugaresti NCBCS Inc. [ Prov. Coordinator ] BCCPD BC Collation of People with Disabilities [Member/Activist] , MAC SOG- Metis Action Council/Special Op.. Group [member/coordinator] , CIA Christian Intelligence Association [supporter/contributor] , NFA [member & supporter of the (Original Concept)]. Web site @ http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/9460/index.html Take Note: ********************************************** "Take up our quarrel with the foe, to you from failing hands we throw the torch. Be Yours To Hold It High. If yea break faith with us who died we shall not sleep though poppies grow in ""Flanders Fields." - - Col. J. McCrae - Can. Army Medical Corp. - -1914-1918. - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Non-cooperation with injustice is a sacred duty." - Mahatma Gandhi - - ---------------------------------------------------------- " I came to Ottawa in November with the firm belief that the only people in this country who should have guns are police officers and soldiers" -Alan Rock, "Taking Aim on Guns"- Maclean's, April 25, 1994, pg.12. ......................................... Article : Nothing Funny About Guns Seniority Column : Publication: Burnaby News Leader Issue; (Sunday, July 11,1999.) Author: Muriel Kauffmann - {Muriel@vcn.bc.ca} Grandparents, mother, and fathers, please, please don't buy your children toy guns. Instead, teach them that guns kill people and animals. Try to make them understand that guns kill people and animals, forever, not like on television or in the movies, Guns are not toys. Guns are deadly. Guns, as the Burnaby RCMP officers say, are no laughing matter. The posturing by politicians-the motion raised by Councilor Lee Rankin and Burnaby city council's subsequent endorsement of the motion to ask BC's Attorney General to reconsider suing manufactures of firearms will accomplish nothing. It is our own responsibility. It is up to us alone. My husband and I made many mistakes in raising our children, but the one area where I know I was right was in not allowing any guns, toy or real, in our home. When the children asked for guns, we looked at it as a teaching opportunity to discuss with them the deadly nature of firearms. It was easy to argue our case with conviction because a dreadful incident had taken place in our city around that time. The police were making a raid on an apartment. It man have had something to do with drugs, but that isn't important and doesn't matter because little children are not involved in the dealing of drugs. The incident was so terrible, the results so far-reaching, that nobody cared anymore whether there were or were not drugs, drugs dealers, gang members or what-have-you in that apartment. The apartment was dark. The lights were off. The television was on. Someone was sitting on the floor in front of the TV. He had a gun in his hand. The police entered the apartment and they cautiously approached the room, the person sitting there turned and pointed the gun directly at one of the police officers. The officer could not make out the person, but he saw the gun. It was clearly silhouetted against the television screen. He knew his life was in danger. He fired his gun directly at the person pointing the gun at him - a six-year-old child holding a toy pistol. The child was killed. The policeman wished he had died too, but he lived to have a nervous breakdown, to leave the force, to have his life ruined by the tragic incident. Toy guns looked real enough then. They look real now. Real guns look like toys. How are the policemen supposed to be able under pressure, know the difference? Kids are capable of stupid things, that's why they need parenting, that's why they need protecting and that's why they need us to love and to teach them. Last time I discussed guns and how I feel about them in this column, members of hunting and/or gun clubs wrote numerous letters to the editor complaining about my views. I know it will happen again. Sorry, guys, I cannot the killing of any living creature for pleasure, And, if one must kill animals for food, I believe they should be killed in the quickest and most humane manner. Guns are not humane, Guns are dangerous. My daughter, now an adult, recently told me she saw toy guns for sale in a local market and complained to the manager. Good for her ! I'm proud! Wouldn't it be great if we all became pro-active? Let's start a campaign to get guns out of our children's hands. Take a moment to look around your local supermarket, drugstore or toy store. When you see guns for sale, complain vocally. Then, take the trouble to ask for the-name and address of a higher-up, and write a letter or postcard to voice your disapproval in writing. The very best way to get the message across, however, would be to never buy guns, either toy or real. "PERIOD". Muriel@vcn.bc.ca ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #72 *********************************