Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:25:49 -0600 Message-Id: <199911161425.IAA19548@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #204 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, November 16 1999 Volume 03 : Number 204 In this issue: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #202 CFC Bul 38 Re: Range can not open as a Business venture must be a Gun Club. CONGRATS!!!! Spend on prevention Letter in Calgary Sun Didya ever think............ RCMP warns of soaring costs of gun registry Textbook example of why Ottawa's flimsy firearms registry has failed re: "customs silence" and other nonsense.... Outrageously cold-blooded hypocrisy ! converted autos ammunation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 07:42:18 -0600 From: "David A. Bush" Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #202 For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would apply for a possession-only certificate. If they refuse you, wouldn't they just come and take the guns right now? Heck, If you wait until the last moment - at least you get to own them until then. But even if they trick everyone into applying, there is no guarantee you will get it renewed. Then come the gun-grabbers. Besides, when you get old and cannot afford to renew the thing; when they increase the cost to say, $500.00 per year plus a mandatory course, and fingerprinting, etc.; like they did with FAC's, won't they just take the guns then? Oh, did I mention that they train the dogs to smell gun oil? "History tells us that governments never learn anything from history" Dudley Pope ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 07:42:16 -0600 From: "gary.baker" Subject: CFC Bul 38 As of 1440 14 Nov 99 it is finally acknowledged that "one week processing simple new PAC now takes an estimated six months. What a suprise !! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 07:56:30 -0600 From: "Alan Harper" Subject: Re: Range can not open as a Business venture must be a Gun Club. > The CFO of Ontario has told the owners of a Range they can only open, IF > THEY HAVE A GUN CLUB!!! this is a Building with a 50 yard Rifle Range, and a > 20 yard Pistol Range, all totally refurbished!! They have Commercial > Customers right now ready to shoot there!!! only a Gun Club can have a > Range!!, I had this told to me on Friday the 12 th, of November? is this > True Dave? Anybody? Mike H. ======================== The first thing to ask is, "What section of the Firearms Act, or Criminal Code are you using to justify your statement?" I, and presumably lots of others, are hearing lots of bull fertilizer from the authorities. They like to dump this fertilizer on us, and never seem to have any actual laws in mind, when they say it. If we let this nonsense go unchallenged then they have put one over on us and it will become common practice, not because Parliament passed a law, but because they fooled us into thinking that their lies are laws. Bye. Al. "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences." - - C.S. Lewis, "The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment", included in the book "God in the Dock". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 07:56:34 -0600 From: ":-)" Subject: CONGRATS!!!! Congrats to Tom Zinck, John St. Amour, Murray Grismer, John Perocchio, Linda Thom, Medha Russell, Edward Burlew, Mike Cooper, Wolfgang Pollman, John Bardoscia, and others! It is "so nice to finally see the problem with C-68 advertised on television"! Now this is the kind of thing we need to see more on our local tv stations. Why did it take the NRA to take this to the tv for us? You guys (and gals) really did a fantastic job in the ad and did our sport proud! Linda (Kali) My apologies, I missed the beginning of the tv show, but I believe Tony Bernardo was also in the show. Congrats to him also! Linda (Kali) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 07:56:39 -0600 From: "Jules Sobrian" Subject: Spend on prevention Ontario minister fumes over gun registry costs SPEND ONPREVENTION By ROBERT FIRE Ottawa Bureau Chief OTTAWA . A senior minister in the Ontario government has sent a strongly worded letter to Anne MeLellan, the federal Justice Minister, pointing out that money spent on the contentious gun registry could have paid for 1,900 new front-line troops. David Tsubouchi, the Solicitor-General, wrote to Ms. McLellan after the National Post revealed that the cost of the registry soared to almost $300 million since the gun law came into effect last December. Justice Department officials acknowledge Ottawa spent $195-million to set up the registration system at the Canadian Firearms Centre in Miramichi, N.B., and a separate facility in Montreal, even though the government had said it would only cost $85-million, spread over five years. In addition to the start-up costs, the government estimates it will cost $100 million this fiscal year and a similar amount annually. over the next two years to operate the system until it is functioning smoothly. Once that happens, the operating budget is to average $60-million over a 10-year period "Your government has already spent almost $295 million on the registration system," Mr. Tsubouchi complained in the Nov.10 letter, which was also sent to the National Post. "To put this in perspective, Ontario is investing $150-million into helping police services hire up to 1,000 new front-line officers on the streets of our province ... It means that the $295 million your government is spending creating a large bureaucracy and red tape could have been spent on almost 1,900 new front-line officers:' Rather than waste vast amounts of money on "this large bureaucratic machine," Mr. Tsubouchi urged Ms. McLellan to scrap the registration system and rewrite the Firearms Act to tighten up penalties for criminals using guns in the commission of a crime. The Ontario government has joined five provinces - Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia - as well as the Yukon and Northwest Territories, in a Supreme Court of Canada challenge to the constitutionality of the gun law, which forces gun owners to license and register all of their firearms. The law requires an estimated three million owners of seven million guns to obtain licences and photo ID cards by Jan. 1, 2001. A possession licence costs $10 but the price will jump to $45 on Dec. l. An acquisition licence to buy more guns costs $60, renewable every five years. On Jan. 1,2003, gun owners will also have to register all their firearms at a cost of $l0 with the fee rising to $18 in subsequent years. There is also a $25 transfer fee for selling a firearm. "We recognize the importance of keeping firearms out of the hands of violent criminals. It is one our most urgent priorities. However, criminals do not register guns and bureaucratic registeries will not keep guns out of the hands of criminals," Mr. Tsubouchi said. National Post Jules, RFO of O ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:25:08 -0600 From: Jim Dowdell Subject: Letter in Calgary Sun This letter was published in the Calgary Sun today (11/15/99) as shown. With the other Calgary paper on strike, this should reach a greater than usual readership. The Editorial referenced was posted to the CFD on the weekend- Jim ++++++++++++++++++++++ LETTER OF THE DAY "REGISTRY RINGS it up" (Nov. 12) was appro- priate for a post-Remembrance Day editorial. Lest we forget, every war Canadians fought was for freedom from the tyrant. Gun control is a broad tool used by every tyran- nical government. It is useful in many ways for controlling the pop- ulace. First, you push up the cost of gun ownership past the level the overtaxed citizen can afford, so gun ownership is limited to the rich or especially com- mitted hobbyist. Next, you multiply the prohibitions that preclude gun ownership, until only friends of the party in power are able to get permission to own guns. Finally, you arm every level of government, put- ting the citizen in a subordinate position in any dealings with government officials. Now turn around and ask what kind of country you live in. "It can't happen here," you say? Ask any German citizen who lived through the '30s. Ask any veteran. Gun control is not about controlling guns. It is about controlling the people. Jim Dowdell (We're not quite so worried about a gun-control master plan we just think the registry is intru- sive, expensive and ineffective.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:25:12 -0600 From: "Peter Kearns" Subject: Didya ever think............ The "poison dwarf" fronting the Canadian firearms centre has finally admitted that expenses will exceed $300 million at the end of this year, (and according to some he is lying about that and "lowballing" the figures!) Did you ever think that Annie may not have considered her statement that "registration fees will recover the costs of the registry," may come back and haunt her??? According to the "poison dwarf" the amount spent will exceed $300 million this year. According to the "p.d." there are 7 million firearms in Canada, and only 6% (450,000) have been registered so far. (Remember these are HIS figures, (so he must be comfortable with them......... Now for fun and entertainment divide 300 million by 450,000........ So why aren't we paying $135 for each and every registration IF Annie and (p.d.) Jean Valin were being truthful? Oh dear brethren...... I think our government is lying to us again....... regards, Peter Kearns Simon says: Even though the name is appropriate, using the term "poison dwarf" when describing Monsieur Valin is a bit demeaning..... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:25:27 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: RCMP warns of soaring costs of gun registry PUBLICATION: National Post DATE: 1999.11.11 EDITION: All but Toronto SECTION: News PAGE: A4 BYLINE: Norm Ovenden SOURCE: Edmonton Journal DATELINE: OTTAWA RCMP warns of soaring costs of gun registry: Low public compliance: Latest estimate puts cost of program at $720M over 10 years OTTAWA - Substantially more funding must be added to a $720-million federal program aimed at registering the more than three million gun owners across the country, according to a confidential RCMP document. "Critical resource shortages will exist if compliance levels improve," chief firearms officers in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Nunavut and the Northwest Territories reported in their most recent update to the RCMP's senior executive committee at Ottawa headquarters. The document, obtained by the Reform party after an access to information request, raises more questions about the efficiency and reliability of the registry. It has been attacked by opposition parties, police and gun lobbyists for red tape and escalating high costs. The RCMP is adding more concerns in its June update. The firearms officers expect the number of owners applying for licences will be "much lower" than forecast, which suggests "very low public compliance, less than 10%." The officers described the system as inefficient and said the remedy required "more human resources than initially projected." The RCMP's fear that there will be insufficient funding to reach the target of universal registration by the end of 2002 comes amid new disclosures about how much money the Liberal government expects to spend on implementing the controversial plan. Jean Valin, public affairs director at the Canadian Firearms Centre, said the Justice Department will spend $100-million this year on operating the system. Over a 10-year period, the operational budget will average $60-million a year, he said. That total of $600-million is on top of $120-million in start-up expenses for the registry, which went into effect last December. Those figures, made public for the first time, are at odds with comments by Anne McLellan, the Justice Minister, said Dennis Young, executive assistant to Garry Breitkreuz, the Reform gun critic. In a July letter to the Edmonton Journal, Ms. McLellan said fees from users would match the start-up costs and "the estimated $50-million to $60 million annual operation costs for the system." However, the government has banked only $2.9-million in fees in the first six months of implementation and only 160,000 licence applications have been received. More than two million gun owners are holding off, even though possession-only fees jump to $45 on Dec. 1 from $10. Mr. Valin said operating costs are higher in the first three years to smooth out bumps in the computerized system and inform owners of their obligations. A $400,000 fall advertising blitz is wrapping up. Another national information campaign is planned after Christmas. RCMP concerns about "critical resource shortages" in case demand picks up have been answered through a package of summer improvements in productivity, Mr. Valin said, adding that the same number of staff can now handle a heavier workload. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:25:22 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Textbook example of why Ottawa's flimsy firearms registry has failed PUBLICATION: The Edmonton Sun DATE: 99.11.13 SECTION: Editorial/Opinion PAGE: 10 COLUMN: Letters to the Editor NETTING A huge cache of illegal guns, bombs and bazookas in Alberta this week, the RCMP provided the public with yet another textbook example of why Ottawa's flimsy firearms registry has failed. Of what possible value is the error-plagued registry in potentially deadly situations like this? How did the Liberals' botched registry assist the heroic officer involved? Did the worthless gun registry make Alberta a safer place to live? Anne McLellan, you've fleeced us for hundreds of millions of dollars, yet you stand without a single, unambiguous, occurrence of success for your vulgar registry. Instead, Canada is now faced with a burgeoning illegal arms trade that includes bazookas! Scrap the misdirected Act in favour of effective gun and crime control. Randy Nelson Editor's Comment: (You just blew up the Liberals' phoney law.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:25:18 -0600 From: "Peter Kearns" Subject: re: "customs silence" and other nonsense.... A subscriber wrote HIS interpretation of the rights of customs to pass information YOU declared to other agencies, (and also offered a rather fanciful version of firearms laws according to him!) I suggest that before pronouncing those of us who have studied the Customs Act, or the Firearms Act are wrong, stupid or malicious that anyone wishing to offer a differing view, actually first READ and UNDERSTAND the Acts..... (and also refrain from inferring that our motivation is somehow flawed....) For those who either don't bother to check or can't be bothered to read the Acts: ANY individual possessing either a valid FAC or a PAL may import ANY unrestricted firearm into Canada. Customs are allowed to inspect and check the arm declared to them against the National Firearms Manual to confirm it is non restricted, and then after you pay your duty, show your FAC you take the UNREGISTERED AND UNDOCUMENTED arm home. CUSTOMS ARE NOT ALLOWED UNDER THE CONDITIONS OF THEIR ACT (AND THE REVENUE ACT) TO PASS ANY INFORMATION ABOUT ANYTHING YOU DECLARED TO ANYONE WHO IS NOT A DIRECT EMPLOYEE OF CANADA CUSTOMS OR REVENUE CANADA. (That includes all other federal government. police or intelligence agencies...... (READ THE BLOODY ACT!) For anyone to say differently is wrong, and these FACTS have been confirmed with serving customs officers. Customs cannot hold onto non restricted arms until they are registered, and like any other import must part with the goods after appropriate duties are paid, (as instructed by the Act!) and the goods are checked for compliance with the customs regulations. That's it, there is no other satisfactory interpretation, and the learned discourse I read (apparently) omitted all pertinent references to the Customs Act. FOR THE SUBSCRIBER CLAIMING EXPERTISE IN CUSTOMS LAW: Memorandum D-19-13-2 which you categorically state is a CUSTOMS document, was actually a part of the National Firearms Manual put out by the RCMP. Memorandum D19-13-2 is a series of OPINIONS, (NOT REGULATIONS) and cannot constitute LEGAL STANDARDS, as parliament NEVER saw fit to give them the backing of law. When you quote regulations, please be sure they are actually backed by force of law! (Refer to National Firearms Manual, and you will see all of the Memoranda.) I would also suggest that the subscriber, (who apparently didn't read my submission well enough to be able to correctly spell my name) resist the urge to cast aspersions at me to back up his essay which appears to be a series of "maybe's" and "if's." I would suggest he contact the lawyers who regularly solicit customs law advice from me, and those lawyers who contact me through the NFA, and tell them they are risking their client's money and their own reputation by relying on a misguided nitwit who apparently doesn't know a damn thing.. I will state the following: SHOULD ANYONE WISH TO QUESTION MY KNOWLEDGE IN THE AREA OF KUSTOMS LAW, I SUGGEST THAT THEY CONTACT ME PRIVATELY AND I WILL HAPPILY QUOTE SECTION, CHAPTER AND LEGAL PRECEDENTS, (and help them through the maze.......) Otherwise I will be pleased to publicly demonstrate the shortcomings that appear in the silly statements that surface from time to time..... BETCHYA DIDN'T KNOW: ALL RCMP officers are customs officers! (That was a lame attempt to permit the transfer of confidential customs declaration information to the police..... But then WE told them, (and they noticed" the part in the Act that said "directly in the employ of Canada Customs or Revenue Canada." Yes they really are that stupid! Peter K-E-A-R-N-S (Have you got the spelling right now?) (The above are my personal opinions, and do not reflect any views but my own.) As a courtesy this message was forwarded to "customs silence." Stay tuned folks!! Simon says: "Andy" was correct about "unintended consequences," as the people who drafted the Firearms Act "forgot" that portions of the Customs Act superceded the authority of the firearms laws. They forgot that customs officers can't be registrars. they forgot that customs can't pass any information about customs declarations to anyone...... For "Andy's" benefit. Customs officers were made "peace officers" so that they could LEGITIMATELY apprehend drunks and felons, and that is the reason some wear bulletproof vests.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:25:32 -0600 From: 701506@ican.net Subject: Outrageously cold-blooded hypocrisy ! Outrageously cold-blooded hypocrisy ! Recent debate concerning the age of 12 years as a benchmark for learnin hunting skills arises from the tragic death of Maxime Girard, a young hunter in Quebec. Anyone who has followed this story quickly realized that apart from the training Maxime was receiving from his Uncles and Grandfather several legal guidelines were violated. Apparently Maxime had not taken the hunters education course and he did not have a firearms license . The presence of his family illustrates that in addition to receiving training this young man was also engaged in a rite of passage. Within the apparent hunting traditions of this family, Maxime was being groomed for the sometimes difficult passage into adulthood. Given the tragic outcome and the potential legal consequences it seems to require the wisdom of Solomon to determine what legal sanction could be imposed on those responsible that in any way could surmount their loss. ******* 15 Nov. 1999 Montreal Gazette, letters, page b 2 Hunting lobby is partly to blame The hunting lobby must accept some responsibility in the tragic death of 12 year old Maxime Girard. (Gazette Nov 8) Over the past decade, the number of hunters, less than 7 per cent of our society, has decreased substantially and the hunting interest are targeting younger people to join their diminishing ranks. As with the tobacco lobby, new markets must be developed and emphasis has been placed on the young. Many believe that the 4 per cent drop in waterfowl hunting in the United States is what prompted Ducks Unlimited to pursue snow-goose hunting, given that the methodology used to justify the hunt on the basis of overabundance is less than scientific. An alarming number of those who are shooting geese are in their early teens or even younger. It is unfortunate that the very young continue to be exploited in this dangerous and at times fatal manner. Our hearts go out to the Girard family at this time. Georges R. Dupras Director Animal Alliance of Canada St. Laurent ************* If it were politically correct for the Montreal Gazette to publish a photograph of a youngster with his limit of ducks or rabbits or geese Mr. Dupras would be the first to attack and condemn. What breed of hypocrite would twist this tragedy to forward their political agenda. Now we know! Paul Chicoine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:25:39 -0600 From: "Walter Hornby" Subject: converted autos re Allan Harpers on dealing with CFC. I noticed that very quickly it went from he HAD to sign the form to it was suggested that he sign the form. this is on of the problems with the CFC. the staff is no adequately trained but are represented as being experts. hmm, I wondered if he had signed it and later found out he didn't have to if he could sue CFC for something??? Walter Hornby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:25:47 -0600 From: "Walter Hornby" Subject: ammunation Carl. I could be wrong but so far I have seen nothing that would suggest one must have his registration certificate with him to buy ammunition. the proposal regulation is that as of Jan 1 2002 ( I think I don't have my notes handy) you will need a firearms license to purchase ammunition. now whither the magnetic strip on the back will will have information on what firearms you own or if the computer will have to check with the master one to see you own a registered firearm in that caliber is open to discussion. perhaps, if you don't it will mean a visit from the guns cops. who knows?? am I being paranoid. unfortunately nope. does this infringe on our freedom. yes. will the average Canadian care. nope. as for top ends on 45. I have two permits. one is for 45 and one is for the barrel to make it 38 super. I couldn't believe it since all I ask is that they list both caliber's on one permit. shaking my head here. Walter Hornby ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #204 **********************************