Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:50:11 -0600 Message-Id: <199912011650.KAA12599@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #222 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, December 1 1999 Volume 03 : Number 222 In this issue: ANTIQUE FIREARMS -- HANDGUNS Canadian Firearms Centre is unable to cope with backlogs rebarreling .32 cal handguns Royal Canadian Air Farce US stats on blocked sales through NICS Today is one year anniversary of Firearms Act ! Medical misadventure Re: Montreal massacre CFC inaccurate claims? A great Day for All RFC In Canada RCMP EMPLOY 391 PAPER PUSHERS Luger p.08 question LAWSUIT FILED AGAINST ANTI-GUN MAYORS looking for a RockSpecial Re: "Amnesty" extension on short barreled handguns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:28:31 -0600 From: Dave Tomlinson Subject: ANTIQUE FIREARMS -- HANDGUNS > I have a 32?? cal pinfire revolver with about a >2 inch barrell that I'd like to shoot. Problem >is that it is classed as an antique. I've had >it for about 8 years now and we told the police >that we bought it back then.. Last year the CFC >told me that if I wanted to fire it then it >would have to be registered...is this so? Now >if this is the case then here's the problem. >It's now prohibited and I'm not grandfathered in >anyway. Is there anyway to get around any of >this or register it? Your pinfire revolver definitely is an "antique firearm" [CC s. 84(1) "antique firearm" definition]. It is also a "prohibited firearm" [CC s. 84(1) "prohibited firearm" (a) definition]. However, NONE of the provisions of the Firearms Act that control "prohibited firearms" apply to your little relic [CC s. 84(3)]. You may take it afield and shoot it to your heart's content, anywhere it is not unlawful to fire a rifle. Gopher hunting, anyone? Under the laws as they stood before C-68, an "antique" handgun automatically became a "restricted weapon" if one decided to discharge it. Some bureaucrats still believe that is the law today. They are wrong. Under C-68, its "antique firearm" status is unaffected if you load and shoot it. Did you know that handguns made before 1898 in .44 Russian are "antique firearms" [cc S. 84(1) "antique firearm" (b) definition and Canada Gazette Part II Vol 132 No 20 page 2726]? David A Tomlinson National President, National Firearms Association Ph: (780)439-1394 Fax: (780)439-4091 natpres@nfa.ca Box 1779, EDMONTON AB, T5J 2P1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:29:02 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Canadian Firearms Centre is unable to cope with backlogs PUBLICATION: The Saskatoon StarPhoenix DATE: 99.11.30 SECTION: Sports PAGE: B5 COLUMN: Outdoors BYLINE: Loran, Tom ON THE SAME DAY in the paper there was a report the federal gun registry program is "inflexible and inefficient." The report was produced by Pricewaterhouse Coopers, a well respected and independent firm. I've heard some complaints that the report was buried in the paper but to my mind, what the consultants found was no surprise at all. They simply confirmed what everyone but the most dyed-in-the-wool Liberal or the rabid anti-gunner knew and said all along: The Liberal gun bill was an expensive, useless boondoggle that was not going to do the job the Chretien gang set out for it. Pricewaterhouse Coopers found the Canadian Firearms Centre is unable to cope with backlogs even though almost no one is applying for a licence or registration. As a result, it is bogged down, costs are rising beyond belief, and the only possible claim of benefit under the anti-gun bill is that the centre has denied or revoked licences to 1,000 people. Even that I look on with suspicion. How many of those 1,000 rejections were mistakes made by the centre staff? How many people were denied licences without sufficient cause or justification? In two years, Chretien will be going to the people. If he stubbornly sticks to this costly, useless program, it may not cost him re-election but it will cost him many thousands of votes right across the country, a cost he is foolishly persistent in risking. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:28:34 -0600 From: dcmiller@mail.island.net (doug & karen miller) Subject: rebarreling .32 cal handguns >4. Replacing the short barrel with one longer than 105 mm so that >the handgun becomes a restricted firearm, and turning in the >prohibited barrel to a police officer or firearms officer; or NFA: That is true ONLY if the firearm does NOT use .25 or .32 calibre cartridges. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------- In the words of the CFC (I forget whether it was Roussel or St Denis) the caliber of a gun is defined by the head stamp of the FACTORY cartridge it chambers. Keeping in mind that .32 cal handguns are actually groove diameter .308 (.312 for 32-20), shortening the cylinder and setting the barrel back so that it no longer chambers factory ".32's" changes the gun to a non prohibited wildcat 30 caliber. Just my thoughts anyway. Cheers Doug ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:28:54 -0600 From: Marcel Boudreau Subject: Royal Canadian Air Farce Did anyone else see last Friday's Air Farce on CBC. They had a tremendous skit where an armed robber enters a corner store and the store owner refuses to serve him until the robber shows his gun registration. What a hoot. I've already sent my comments on to Air Farce (www.airfarce.com). I've also nominated the Federal Justice Minister for the Chicken Cannon of the year target. I suggested ammo of tax payers money (what's a few more hundred thou), cattle feed (it eventually ends up as bxxxxx), and manure (see cattle feed). Cheers, - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Marcel Boudreau, CD, P.Eng. boudreau@chebucto.ns.ca Home Page: http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~boudreau/Profile.html Macintosh Software Public Download Area (PDA) Manager Chebucto Community Net, Halifax, Nova Scotia O- Webmaster: Atlantic Marksmen Associaton Web Site: http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Recreation/AMA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:49:11 -0600 From: R Coville Subject: US stats on blocked sales through NICS Thought you might like to see how the US system is faring ... http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/19991201/ts/gun_checks_3.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:49:17 -0600 From: "Tom Zinck" Subject: Today is one year anniversary of Firearms Act ! Today is one year anniversary of Firearms Act ! Where are all the press releases ? Where are all the news conferences promoting this wonderful piece of legislation ? Looks like Idle Annie is trying to keep a low profile to avoid public embarrassment. Just a reminder that some of the people responsible for Gun Control around the world have their pictures on this site : http://www.comnet.ca/~tzinck/leaders.htm and some of the Canadian civil-servants responsible for the $300 Million failure in Canada have their pictures here : http://www.comnet.ca/~tzinck/civil.htm I wonder if when the CFC and DoJ employees were hired to work on the Firearms Act they knew it was going to turn out like it has ? Lets keep up the political fight, as we are winning !! - -Tom Reform, OHA, NFA, ARRA, JPFO, NRA, GOA http://www.comnet.ca/~tzinck Frustrate a Liberal : Lease a gun today ! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:48:59 -0600 From: William Blasius Subject: Medical misadventure Given the recent spate of comparisons between firearms injuries and "medical misadventures", I noted with interest that today's International Herald Tribune front-paged a report citing an NAS study that "up to 98,000 Americans die unnecessarily every year from medical mistakes made by physicians, pharmacists and other health care professionals ... Those deaths, along with serious non-fatal reactions to other medical errors, cost the nation as much as $29 billion a year". It makes me wonder whether similar statistics are available for Canada. Maybe the government should give up licensing firearms, dealers and ranges and start licensing doctors, pharmacists and hospitals. No, wait, they did that, didn't they? ;) Wm Blasius Stuttgart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:49:20 -0600 From: Edward Dongres Subject: Re: Montreal massacre > > Next week, Wednesday, CBC's The Fifth Estate will air a program > commemorating the 10th anniversary of the Montreal Massacre. > What are the chances we will see some unbiased journalism on gun control? It is a good opportunity to ask CBC about Denis Lortie. When is the anniversary of Quebec City massacre anyway? Ed 'Saipan' D. <><><><><><><><> ............................................................................................................................. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:48:58 -0600 From: Rudy Hintz Subject: CFC inaccurate claims? By Annie's numbers - Some 3,128 potentially dangerous gun sales have been blocked and sent for further investigation. Some 548 applicants have been refused for public safety reasons. In Dec 98 I attempted to purchase a Beretta 1934 handgun frame. The gun was listed as prohibited and I am not grandfathered for SBHs. Their registration program would not accept the entry of a handgun frame only. It was sent through as a complete gun. I hoped that when it got to the local CFO office I would tell them it was a frame only and clear things up at that stage. No go, it was rejected. I then tried the whole process again but talked to a supervisor and explained the situation. No problem I was told. I didn't get a call after two days of the second registration attempt so I called again and tried a third registration attempt. I then got a call from the CFO to inform me my application was rejected. That I can not register the frame of a prohibited handgun. Later that afternoon I got call from the same CFO informing me my transfer had gone through. He then gave me my TAN. So I applied for registration three times and was rejected twice. Are the two rejections counted as two of the 3,128 potentially dangerous gun sales? How many others have been included due to their systems screwups? also - I spent close to 40 hours on the phone in order to get the transfer. The process started Dec 17/98 and I received my TAN in mid February. I never did get my registration card. I called a number of times in order to see what was the holdup on the card. I was told they were busy and to call back in a couple of weeks. When I persisted one time I was told that I would be called the next day. I got a call two days later and was told that I had no Beretta frame registered to me. I asked to have the guns registered to myself read to me. The list was complete with the exception of the Beretta. I was told that this was not so unusual. It did happen every so often. So if my Beretta is not in the "much improved" system, how many other guns were transferred and are not in the system. All you people waiting for registration cards may be in the same position. Just because you have a TAN, and have been charged for the transfer, does not mean your gun is actually registered. At $1 million per week (if you accept the 50-60 million per year) are we getting good value for the money spent? I think not! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:49:29 -0600 From: "Nunou Bisness" Subject: A great Day for All RFC In Canada Today was a great day for all in the RFC Here in Canada. I'm writing this from Seattle Wa this morning. All is quiet now after the "Riot In Seattle" {King 5} Nickname for the World Conference Protest Movement. CIA (Christian Intelligence Association) Ministry is here . Among our members are those of the Canadian RFC Community. Today we to part in a "peaceful" protest parade and and information picket lines. The protest is a great success, we were able to totally disrupt the World Butchers & Tyrants conference and let them all know that the people in North America are not going to take enslavement without a very vicious fight. By any and all peaceful means or if need be,stronger. That we the people will fight them in anyway possible. Among the Canadian contingent was Leaders and members of most of the big unions in Canada and British Columbia. Leaders and members of the Christian Societies. Leaders and members of the Medical Sector. Among those in the CIA contingent were followers of the RFC/NCSBC organization based out of Vancouver. Because the NCSBC interacts with all Organizations fighting the New World Order, concentrating On the Undemocratic firearms law as its base. CIA was Able to pass out thousands flyers to other protest Organizations and people in Seattle. NCSBC's flyer on the connection between the Canadian Firearms Act {based on information by the {Hon. MP/Reform/ "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Sask.} and what is now being attempted by the Clinton Administration was "A hot topic". All of these flyers were taken by the people in Seattle today. NCSBC's "The whitewash/cover up" of the massive amounts of money now spent and being spent by both provinces and the federal government, on trying to maintain the unworkable CFA/CCC amendments. Was another hot topic flyer {based on numbers \provided by the Hon. "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1"} The Canadian Government and BC government delegates are the main target regarding this information. Also handed out the NCSBC flyer on the breakdown analyses of the Effects of the CFA/CCC amendments on Aboriginal rights and ability to use firearms for subsistence needs. The NCSBC information sheet on the Ramification of the CFA/CCC {again based on information provided by Hon."Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" } on Americans coming to Canada. Was another hot topic flyer taken by the people of Seattle And American Organizations. The CIA and others from Canada plan to remain here for the duration of the Conference and will be as loud and visible as in possible under the circumstances now surrounding The Conference proceedings. More of the NCSBC flyers will be produced and handed out during the event. It must be noted; the violence that is being so greatly exploited by the media has been caused by a handful of individual protesters. Outright criminals who are being portrayed as demonstrators by the media. Also Agent provocateurs are also being used here to try and discredit the peaceful protest groups who are using only Non Violent tactics to demonstrate. The Non Violent protestors are the majority. It's an exhilarating feeling watching the average Citizens of Seattle in the Capitol Hill area join in when they found out what was really happening at this Big Business/Butchers conference. Many of the "join in" people have now pledged to join with us who are here to show their anger at what is really going on in that Conference Hall. N. Proud member of the RFC CIA Member & Activist - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:49:05 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: RCMP EMPLOY 391 PAPER PUSHERS NEWS RELEASE December 1, 1999 For Immediate Release RCMP EMPLOY 391 PAPER PUSHERS TO IMPLEMENT USELESS FIREARMS REGISTRY "So much for the Minister's promise that they wouldn't take police off the street." Ottawa - Today, Garry Breitkreuz, MP for Yorkton-Melville and Official Opposition Firearms Critic, released the RCMP's response to an Access to Information Request proving the government has broken their promise not to take police off the street to implement their problem-plagued gun registry. "The documents show that as of September 30, 1999, the RCMP had a 'total compliment' of 391 person years working on the firearms registration project," revealed Breitkreuz. "Knowing this, how can the Minister of Justice still stand by the statement she made to the Canadian Police Association in August that the 'implementation and operation of the system would not take police officers off the street'?" "No where is the evidence clearer than in British Columbia where 24 Mounties have been lent to the Attorney General of BC to implement the federal government's gun registry. It's a political shell-game," declared Breitkreuz. "The federal government pays the province of BC to implement the gun laws and on top of that lends them 24 RCMP officers to help them. That's 24 highly trained police officers that are busy being paper-pushing bureaucrats instead of patrolling streets and investigating crime." On October 18th, 1999, the Vancouver Sun reported, "The RCMP estimates that of 5,500 positions in B.C., there are currently 300 'true vacancies' that have not been filled and an additional 200 temporary vacancies caused by officers on some form of leave." Breitkreuz observed, "Now we know where 24 of them are working and it's not fighting crime." The Mayor of Surrey, BC recently wrote Reform MP Chuck Cadman about chronic understaffing in the Surrey RCMP detachment and complained that the 40 vacant positions had resulted in excessive overtime. "The 24 Mounties working for the province on the gun registry would go a long way to filling the vacancies in Surrey," said Breitkreuz. Last Friday, during Question Period in the House of Commons, Reform MP Inky Mark asked the government, "Today there are 39 unfilled RCMP positions in Manitoba, paid for by the taxpayers of Manitoba. The government's new estimates show $35 million for gun control and only $13.8 million for the RCMP. Why does this government put gun registration ahead of putting more police on the streets?" Breitkreuz added, "As usual the Liberals ducked this question because it exposed their true priorities." "The government can still fool some of the people some of the time, but when nearly 400 RCMP are employed in the fatally flawed firearms registry, the only people that the Liberals are fooling are those that want to be fooled," concluded Breitkreuz. - -30- For more information, please call: Yorkton Office: (306) 782-3309 Ottawa Office: (613) 992-4394 e-mail: breitg0@parl.gc.ca SUMMARY OF RCMP WORKING ON FIREARMS REGISTRATION PROJECT ATI REQUEST 99ATIP-29009 - November 10, 1999 By Garry Breitkreuz, MP (Yorkton-Melville) OTTAWA = 270 RCMP Person Years Source: Estimated Staffing Levels, Canadian Firearms Registry, September 30, 1999 OPT-OUT PROVINCES = 92 RCMP Person Years ("Total Compliment") Note # 1: Alberta = 41 } Saskatchewan = 18 } Manitoba = 17 } [Only 86 hired out of a 'total compliment' of 92] NWT = 7 } NUNAVUT = 3 } Note #2: Salaries and IPA = $3,464,428 Operations & Travel = $2,142,033 Capital = $ 446,436 TOTAL: $6,052,897 BRITISH COLUMBIA = 24 RCMP Person Years Note #1: 21 Constables, 2 Staff Sgts, 1 Inspector Note #2: "Working on a seconded basis to the Attorney General of BC" YUKON = 2 RCMP Person Years Note #1: 1 Constables, 1 Sgt. NFLD = 3 RCMP Person Years Note #1: 3 Constables GRAND TOTAL = 391 RCMP Person Years For a complete copy of this RCMP Access to Information Request, please call or write: Garry Breitkreuz, MP - House of Commons, Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6 Yorkton Office: (306) 782-3309 Ottawa Office: (613) 992-4394 e-mail: breitg0@parl.gc.ca Available Soon - New Total Employment Numbers for Firearms Registration Project: * Documenting the hundreds of bureaucrats working at the Central Processing Site in Miramichi, NB * Documenting the hundreds of bureaucrats working at the Quebec Registry in Montreal, Quebec * Documenting the hundred or so more bureaucrats working in the Dept. of Justice and Customs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:49:29 -0600 From: "Martin Schermaul" Subject: Luger p.08 question I had planned on purchasing a Luger P.08 today, but when I was putting the order in was informed that these are one of those dangerous short barrelled handguns (4 inch barrel), which makes it so I can never own one. I thought that this wouldn't be much of a problem if I purchased it without the barrel, and then bought a longer on to put on it. I was told that this would be extremely expensive, but wasn't given an approximate cost. Does anyone know if "legal" length barrels are available aftermarket? And if so what the cost would be? It made me rather mad that because of a couple pathetic milimeters I won't be able to own one of these pistols, ever! Of course, I could just go all out and find an artillery model, but as we all know, they cost quite a few dollars more. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Martin Moderator's Note: Gun parts corp,(www.gunpartscorp.com) in the US carry 6" barrels for the Luger, which as I recall cost about $60US. You could contact Epps Sporting Goods at (705) 689-5333 for the cost of putting on the barrel. DJP ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:49:34 -0600 From: Jaded Junker Subject: LAWSUIT FILED AGAINST ANTI-GUN MAYORS LAWSUIT FILED AGAINST ANTI-GUN MAYORS OVER FRIVILOUS GUN MFG. LAWSUITS http://www.saf.org/pub/rkba/press-releases/MayorsLawsuitFiled.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:49:44 -0600 From: Jim Davies Subject: looking for a RockSpecial On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: > Subject: "Amnesty" extension on short barreled handguns > > Do you get the idea? We act lawfully and do everything > correctly, and all those little $10 handguns... Speaking of these RockSpecials, is there a current source for these pieces? I feel the need to check the new, improved CFC paper-wasting black hole, so am looking for an amnesty special to buy or lease. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:49:24 -0600 From: Peter Kearns Subject: Re: "Amnesty" extension on short barreled handguns Robert Pogson wrote: A way out for the feds, who seem to have no shame, is not to prosecute everybody, but just use the "law" to punish a few from time to time, like opposition candidates, protesters, critics, etc. Peter Kearns wrote: Hello..... Did you read my article? I said that "when the police turn up to confiscate your non grandfathered short barreled handgun, demand a seizure warrant, a receipt and then file a request for a reference hearing." Please explain how the hell police seizing handguns could be applied selectively as you theorize to use the "law" to prosecute anyone, and please explain how they could prosecute if they don't bother seizing the majority of non grandfathered sbh's. I really wish people would read what was written before coming up with fantastic ideas that have absolutely no bearing on reality, or the article they refer to. robert Pogson wrote: Of course, none of these special prosecutions would succeed because there is a defense of unequal treatment. The Charter of Right guarantees equal treatment. Peter Kearns wrote: Er......... Robert, this is a load of nonsense that doesn't apply to anything I wrote, or anything discussed elsewhere on this list. (Gotta admit, it sounds impressive and learned though.........) Peter Kearns wrote: The above views expressed by Robert, are a clear example of one of my pet peeves. I write an article or make suggestions based on facts, and on properly researched legal grounds. Then someone attaches a fantastic spin to it that has absolutely no relationship to the first article. (Remember my article about "Your rights at the border?") I really fail to see that if police routinely seize non grandfathered sbh's, how that could be twisted into selective prosecutions, show trials, and Charter violations.......... A simple question for Robert, (refer to your first piece I quoted above) : Please explain how anybody could be prosecuted for anything if the sbh was seized, and explain how that relates to my recommendation that you demand a reference hearing in front of a provincial court judge. In my opinion nobody committed any criminal offence, but perhaps you could enlighten me. (The steam is coming out my ears!) Peter Kearns Simon says: DAT, Do you remember me mentioning "fantastic scenario's" today, in rather more earthy terms? ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #222 **********************************