Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:09:41 -0600 Message-Id: <199912031309.HAA00774@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #224 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, December 3 1999 Volume 03 : Number 224 In this issue: Credit cards Re: rebarreling .32 cal handguns HAPPY BIRTHDAY CFC Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #219 RE: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #221 New Quebec Association for Firearm Owners News Release: Minister of Justice Extends Amnesty Period Re: Fun Stuff. Re: [alert] tonight on Radio Station KFRE AM 940 out of Fresno Kendal---Bromley "Sculpture" Liberals actually believe Justice Dept. PR Re: GUN OWNERS SLOW TO SIGN ON WITH FEDS "Toy gun brings out police in full-force" DOSANJH'S FIREARMS OFFICE OUT OF CONTROL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:41:19 -0600 From: "drusnell" Subject: Credit cards Since the CFC is taking our money (Visa or M/C) and not supplying us with what we are paying for ( TAN or the actual registration papers) in any kind of reasonable time frame. We should be able to call Visa or Mastercard and have the transaction cancelled after a few weeks as we have not received the product or service that we paid for, in the time frame promised by the CFC. The credit card companys should side with the card holder especially since the merchant (CFC) has not got a signed copy of the credit card transaction. Although I am not sure how much this would further delay the process, and ultimately screw our selves up. It would sure screw the CFC up big time. Maybe even force them to process these things a lot faster. Like they could even if they wanted to ! ! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:41:25 -0600 From: Dave Tomlinson Subject: Re: rebarreling .32 cal handguns > In the words of the CFC (I forget whether it was Roussel or St >Denis) the caliber of a gun is defined by the head stamp of the FACTORY >cartridge it chambers. Keeping in mind that .32 cal handguns are actually >groove diameter .308 (.312 for 32-20), shortening the cylinder and setting >the barrel back so that it no longer chambers factory ".32's" changes the >gun to a non prohibited wildcat 30 caliber. No, that idea is NOT correct. The LAW does not SAY that -- and it would have to, in order to make that definition the law of the land. Since it does not, it will be anyone's guess what "25 or 32 calibre" means - -- until the Supreme Court of Canada decides it. Until THAT happens, any "definition" is simply someone's opinion -- even if that person is a judge in a court of law, and the ONLY person whose opinion counts. To illustrate how the above analysis does not help, consider the headstamps on six cartridges: 7.65mm Browning is the SAME cartridge as .32 Automatic Colt Pistol. 7.65mm Parabellum is the SAME cartridge as .30 Luger. 7.63mm Mauser is the SAME cartridge as .30 Mauser. Add to that the fact that all six cartridges use interchangeable BULLETS, and you have confusion. Add to that the fact that many cartridges do not HAVE headstamps that give the calibre, and you have more confusion. David A Tomlinson National President, National Firearms Association Ph: (780)439-1394 Fax: (780)439-4091 natpres@nfa.ca Box 1779, EDMONTON AB, T5J 2P1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:41:11 -0600 From: "BOB LICKACZ" Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY CFC HAPPY BIRTHDAY, CFC !! I must admit that I am surprised that you people made it this far. Now that you have operated the Registry for a whole year, I imagine that it is going to be a little difficult in keeping the lid closed on the costs that you have incurred. I think that a certain accountant by the last name of Desautel is going to be hot on your trail. I imagine that he isn't going to be fooled by the use of that convenient term "partners" that fellows like Mr. Cormier like to use when discussing the costs of your operation. I have this nagging suspicion that a significant amount of tax dollars that were used for CFC / Registry purposes were spent by the RCMP, customs, CSIS and other numerous and sundry departments and recorded as such. I happened to hear Mr. Cormier on a talk radio program, and I must admit that he is very well skilled on the words he uses and the impression he wishes to give. Just as an aside, I wonder if Jean Valin is on his way out? (ulcers? too many bad dreams?) There is just one little detail you people at Justice need to address. You see, it has been a whole year that the Registry has been operating. I will be the first to admit that ANY government program will have it's share of problems that need to be overcome. That is just part of the learning curve. There does however come a point in time when you can't use the "start up problems" excuse anymore. How 'bout it CFC, do you have any bold predictions on when most of these start up glitches will be solved? The reason for asking is that I think we should start marking time so that at some future date we can conclusively say that the problems being experienced are systemic. Sooner or later, the taxpayer is going to realize that you can't smother a fire by throwing more hundred dollar bills on it. Even Justice Minister McLellan, is going to have to admit that you can't make a silver purse out of a sow's ear. Remember CFC, WE TOLD YOU SO. Bob Lickacz NFA Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:41:33 -0600 From: Dave Tomlinson Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #219 >> Do NOT allow the "verifier" to make entries on >> any form that YOU have to sign -- HIS entries MUST be on a separate sheet of >> paper, stapld to your Application. >This is not the first time you have mentioned this so I need to ask, Where do I >find a verifier that will fill out a separate sheet of paper? The fellow the >CFC directed me towards will not do this and doubted that any verifier would. >Does the NFA have the name of someone that does this? No. If he refuses, call (800)731-4000 again, and demand the name of a better verifier. We can keep it up as long as they can! >A little background, I bought a restricted handgun, received the magic numbers >and permit to take it home, and now the CFC has sent me a form to sign >attesting to what the gun is before they issue the registration certificate. >The verifier I contacted says that we should _not_ fill out that form but >instead fill out a "re-registration" form. This sounds dangerous to me since I >have no original registration papers yet and it's not what the CFC is asking >for. Balls. Fill out what they sent you, and get the verifier to lay out the identification data from his FRT on a plain sheet of paper. If he refuses to do it, call (800)731-4000, bxxxx your head off about him, and DEMAND the name of a verifier who provides SERVICE. ALL the people you are dealing with are PAID by you -- through your tax dollars -- so DEMAND good service, and complain when you do not get it. David A Tomlinson National President, National Firearms Association Ph: (780)439-1394 Fax: (780)439-4091 natpres@nfa.ca Box 1779, EDMONTON AB, T5J 2P1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:41:41 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: RE: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #221 Garry filed an Access to Information request on February 5, 1999 in an attempt to get the reason why the government had "blocked" each of the gun sales. Even though the Justice Dept. PR types provided details of some blocked sales, the Dept. of Justice said they didn't have the "reasons" because that information was held by the police who made the entry on the individual's FIP file. A complaint was filed with the Information Commissioner. Dennis Young Parliamentary Assistant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:41:51 -0600 From: Paul Chicoine <701506@ican.net> Subject: New Quebec Association for Firearm Owners I have been waiting for this announcement. This information will be of primary interest to Quebec residents who subscribe to the digest. Communique Pour diffusion immediate Une nouvelle association voit le jour le 1er decembre 1999 : L'Association des Proprietaires d'Armes a Feu ( APAF ) Cette association a pour objectifs les points suivants: Informer tous les possesseurs legitimes d'armes a feu des pouvoirs inclus dans la nouvelle loi sur le controle des armes a feu ; Informer tous les citoyens Quebecois qui ne possedent pas d'armes a feu, des pouvoirs inclus dans la nouvelle loi sur le controle des armes a feu et des impacts economiques et sociaux qu'elle a deja sur notre societe; Contrer la propagande du Centre Canadien des armes a feu, des organismes et individus qui tentent par tous les moyens de < vendre > cette legislation comme seule avenue envisageable afin d'assurer a ses citoyens une societe plus "securitaire!"; Concerter les efforts de tous nos membres afin que les possesseurs legitimes d'armes a feu du Quebec parlent d'une seule voix, lors de futurs debats de societe ; Plusieurs tentent desesperement de convaincre la population que l'actuelle loi sur le controle des armes a feu < previendra > des tragedies telles que Polytechnique et Concordia. De plus , certains affirment meme qu'elle permettra < d'echapper a des massacres comme ceux qui surviennent aux Etats-Unis, ou l'acces aux armes est beaucoup plus facile >. Je crois que plusieurs sociologues, criminologues et autres chercheurs ( Mauser, Buckner, Sutter, Kleck, Lott, pour n'en nommer que quelques uns ) ont deja demontre qu'une telle affirmation n'est pas fondee, et qu'elle tient plutot du folklore populaire. Cette loi fut creee afin de repondre a un tout autre besoin, soit celui de la necessite pour nos politiciens de capitaliser sur le sentiment d'horreur qui a frappe les citoyens a la suite des massacres de Polytechnique et Concordia. Ce faisant, des specialistes de communication ont tot fait de s'affairer a transformer ce sentiment d'horreur en crainte des armes a feu et de ceux qui les possedent. En agissant de la sorte, chacune des interventions du gouvernement afin de controler davantage la possession d'armes a feu, est percue par la population comme un geste positif afin de contrer la violence qui frappe nos communautes. L'Association des proprietaires d'armes a feu ( l'APAF ) aura pour mission premiere d'informer la population sur certains details troublants qui entourent le dossier de la nouvelle legislation sur le controle des armes a feu, que ce soit au niveau de sa promotion, de son application, des sommes enormes de fonds publics qui y sont dilapides, des documents qui sont tires du secret grace a la loi sur l'acces a l'information et finalement, l'impact de ces mesures sur les societes ou elles furent adoptees. Saviez-vous que : Pendant que Marc Lepine s'affairait a tirer sur tout ce qui bougeait, des policiers recevaient l'ordre de ne pas penetrer dans l'universite afin de tenter d'arreter le carnage. Les policiers qui etaient sur place n'eurent l'autorisation de penetrer a l'interieur des murs de Polytechnique que 24 secondes apres que la voiture 31-7 eut emis l'information a l'effet que Marc Lepine s'etait suicide au troisieme etage. Pendant que d'innocentes victimes, laissees a elles-memes, tombaient sous les balles d'un tireur fou, les strateges de notre force policiere ordonnaient l'etablissement d'un plutot que d'autoriser l'assaut afin de tenter de mettre fin au carnage. Dans son rapport, la coroner Teresa Z. Sourour, qui fut saisie d'etudier les circonstances qui entourerent les tragiques evenements de Polytechnique, declara a l'interieur de sa conclusion: . . Elle notait finalement : < Les deficiences relevees au niveau des interventions (policieres et ambulancieres) obligent en toute conscience que l'on s'y arrete serieusement >. Ne trouvez vous pas etonnant que cette derniere prefere concentrer ses recommandations sur le comportement des services de police, plutot que sur celui du controle des armes a feu? Quelques annees plus tard, plus precisement, le 13 janvier 1995, la Coroner Anne-Marie David remis son rapport d'enquete portant sur l'entreposage, la mise en montre et le transport d'armes a feu, et leur impact sur les suicides, accidents et homicides par armes a feu. Ses conclusions, tout comme celles de la coroner Sourour, furent pratiquement ignorees de la part des medias, car, comme elle le notait a la page 50 de son rapport : < Les < arguments > a l'appui de la suggestion principale ( l'enregistrement de toutes les armes a feu ) n'en sont pas, ils ne sont qu'affirmation a l'effet qu'il y aura responsabilisation >. A la lecture de ces deux documents, il n'est pas etonnant que les conclusions incluses dans ces rapports n'aient jamais fait l'objet d'une quelconque diffusion. Du meme souffle, il n'est pas etonnant que l'on ait voulut detourner l'attention du public sur les possesseurs legitimes d'armes a feu, en les designant et en les traitant comme des . En conclusion Les possesseurs legitimes d'armes a feu du Quebec aspirent, tous comme leurs concitoyens qui eux, ne possedent pas d'armes a feu, a une societe juste ou des gestes d'une incroyable violence, tels que Polytechnique, ne se produiront plus. Tout comme vous, nous avons des enfants, parents, amis et connaissances. Notre souhait le plus cher est que ces derniers n'aient jamais a vivre des moments d'insupportable terreur, comme ceux qui ont assistes, et ce bien malgre eux, a la demence meurtriere d'un Marc Lepine. Tout comme vous, les evenements de Polytechnique nous ont arrache le c?ur. Malheureusement, plusieurs s'affaireront au cours des prochaines journees, a vous faire vivre ou revivre, pour la dixieme annee consecutive, les scenes d'horreur qui resulterent de la folie meurtriere de Marc Lepine. Cet exercice n'a qu'un seul but, vous convaincre qu'il faut continuer a injecter, voir dilapider, des sommes enormes, prelevees a meme les fonds publics, dans des legislations qui < ne sont qu'affirmations > quand a leurs effets preventifs. L'Association des proprietaires d'armes a feu ( APAF ) s'affairera, au cours des prochains mois, a fournir aux divers medias d'informations une serie de documents sur le dossier du controle des armes a feu. Nous croyons que la population quebecoise merite une information balancee sur ce dossier. Nous croyons, qu'une fois bien informee, la population quebecoise sera mieux equipee afin de juger si les importantes ressources financieres, qui sont englouties dans la mise en place et l'operation de la nouvelle legislation sur le controle des armes a feu, ne seraient pas plus profitables, si elles etaient redirigees vers les soins de sante, les services sociaux ainsi que le maintien, voir l'amelioration de nos effectifs policier ?. Apres tout, le but de ces depenses n'est-il pas de sauver des vies humaines ? Gilbert Gour Association des proprietaires d'armes a feu Pour informations supplementaires : Tele-avertisseur : (514) 724-8521 Courriel : gour@dsuper.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:41:29 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: News Release: Minister of Justice Extends Amnesty Period http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/general_public/news_releases/amnesty.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:41:37 -0600 From: Alex Subject: Re: Fun Stuff. Dave Harmer, wrote in Digest V3 #221. >Oh the reason I am in court, is because the police showed >up at my door with an apparent complaint. Your post provides us with no details of the complaint leveled against you. What is the "apparent complaint"? If you are an innocent victim, we are here to help you. Alex BC. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:09:07 -0600 From: Joe Waldron Subject: Re: [alert] tonight on Radio Station KFRE AM 940 out of Fresno Skeeter Abell-Smith wrote: > > Skeeter, > > I have been invited to be a guest on Radio Station KFRE AM 940 out of Fresno > California this evening. > > The show goes across the USA and over the Internet. > > visit > http://www.kfre.com/ > Presumably, Thursday evening on KFRE means it's "the Radio Detective," with retired California police officer Jerry Pearce as host. His Thursday night program is sponsored by the NRA. Jerry is solidly pro-gun. It should be an enjoyable experience. Joe W Moderator's Note: 9pm showtime. DJP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:08:56 -0600 From: "Dan Lupichuk Sask. President N.F.A." Subject: Kendal---Bromley "Sculpture" Seems these people are trying to get known by promoting the federal spin-doctors ideas. With how many of our Tax Dollars????? They never did say in their T.V. promotions how many of these firearms that they are destroying to make their 'sculpture' were owned by criminals. Welcome aboard the Titanic: I wonder how well your sculpure floats? Simon Says: Canada, greatest country in the world, now if we could only keep the most ignorant amongst us off the T.V. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:09:15 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Liberals actually believe Justice Dept. PR House of Commons Debates Question Period Thursday, December 2, 1999 UNEDITED COPY (Time posted: 15:47) Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, December marks the first anniversary of the Liberal government's firearms control program, a new system already paying dividends for public safety. Last year 462 firearms licences were revoked for public safety reasons and 578 license applications were refused by provincial chief firearms officers. The government is getting guns out of the hands of people who should not have them. In west Quebec a number of valid firearms license holders were linked to local police records for domestic violence. Provincial authorities were notified and licences were revoked. This is one example that demonstrates the efficacy and importance of the registration system. It also makes me wonder, if the members opposite refuse to face the facts and prevent crime, are there grounds for a united alternative? Maybe the PCs and Reform can join the flat earth society together. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:09:17 -0600 From: "Peter Kearns" Subject: Re: GUN OWNERS SLOW TO SIGN ON WITH FEDS > Justice Department spokesman Jean Valin said that while the system has > recorded 467,402 firearms owners with 1,465,644 guns, he expects to have > records of two million owners with three million guns in a year's time. > ************* DREAM ON DUDE!************** (WHATEVER HE'S SMOKING, I WANT SOME!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:08:58 -0600 From: "Ron Hofman" Subject: "Toy gun brings out police in full-force" Article in today's Winnipeg Free Press, page A4: "Toy gun brings out police in full-force": "More than 30 police officers, including the emergency response unit, surrounded a downtown home yesterday after reports of a man inside with a gun - which turned out to be a toy. The incident, which led to a block of Ellen Street being cordoned off for about three hours, began about 11 a.m. when a property manager went into the home looking for the tenant. He found a man who didn't live there asleep on the couch and saw a large handgun on the floor. So he called police. The emergency response unit was training yesterday, so it was called out to assist. Const. Bob Johnson said calling on the team would have been "a much tougher decision to make based on the information we had" had they not been already assembled. But since they were just down the street, an armed and camouflaged team positioned themselves around the home. Nearby homes and businesses were evacuated. After calling over a megaphone to the person inside the home for about 15 minutes, asking him to come out, a man and a woman left the home with their hands up. Johnson said they had been sleeping inside and had to get dressed before coming out. The couple - a woman who lived in the home and her boyfriend - were handcuffed and taken away in a police car. The emergency response team, with shields and a dog, went into the house and found the gun. It was wrapped up by about 2:30 p.m. Police later said the gun was a toy and called the afternoon "an excellent training exercise." - ----------------------------- Your comments can be sent directly to the Mr. Jack Ewatski, Chief of Police, Winnipeg Police Service. jewatski@city.winnipeg.mb.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:09:01 -0600 From: "Cunningham, David" Subject: DOSANJH'S FIREARMS OFFICE OUT OF CONTROL >For immediate release >Dec. 2, 1999 > >DOSANJH'S FIREARMS OFFICE OUT OF CONTROL > >Vancouver - Attorney General Ujjal Dosanjh's Chief Firearms Office has been >abusive in administering the federal Firearms Act, shutting down shooting >ranges and imposing onerous new guidelines without any authority to do so, >said BC Liberal Justice Critic Geoff Plant. > >"Mr. Dosanjh's firearms office is way out of control and has completely >overstepped its authority," said Plant. "While Dosanjh has been running his >leadership campaign, his Chief Firearms Office has been running amok >harassing law-abiding gun owners with draconian rules that it had no >authority to enforce." > >Plant noted that the new federal Firearms Act, passed last year, gave >authority to provincial Chief Firearms Offices (CFOs) to begin regulating >shooting ranges pursuant to federal regulations as of yesterday, December 1. >However, Dosanjh's Ministry introduced 138-pages of onerous new provincial >guidelines for shooting ranges last May and began immediately inspecting >clubs for compliance, a full six months before it had any legal authority to >take action under the federal Act. At least nine clubs were completely or >partially shut down under the province's guidelines, and two - Campbell River >and Powell River - took legal action. > >Last week, only days before the compliance deadline, Dosanjh's CFO suddenly >advised gun clubs that the province's guidelines will be dropped in favour of >less rigid guidelines prepared by the federal government. > >"The NDP were imposing and enforcing punitive new regulations months before >they had any authority to do so. Now, having harassed and intimidated >law-abiding gun clubs with invalid regulations for six months, Dosanjh has >suddenly dumped them in favour of federal guidelines. That sort of erratic >and heavy-handed conduct is simply indefensible." > >"Citizens have a right to expect that they will be dealt with fairly and >consistently by competent government agencies. This is further evidence that >the federal gun registry has been a complete debacle, and rather than >continue to administer it, Dosanjh should be calling on the feds to scrap it >immediately," Plant concluded. > >(end) ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #224 **********************************