Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:14:37 -0600 Message-Id: <199912091914.NAA16781@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #230 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, December 9 1999 Volume 03 : Number 230 In this issue: Re: License ? Gun control might put us in danger War Measures Act is now the Emergency Act Last night's Round Table All you need to know about Conservative gun policy Firearms: RCMP Officers Turned into Paper-Pushers NFA Calgary Christmas Open House Bar crowd called idiots for tackling robber BREITKREUZ ISSUES HIS OWN 1ST ANNUAL REPORT RE: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #227 DeRegistering Antiques U.N. coming for your guns Re: Weapons like Marc Lepine's still sold 10 years after killings Advertising Standards... Re: License ? Ranges and Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:30:42 -0600 From: "Robin Leech" Subject: Re: License ? Sir, It is not quite that simple. If you had one of the earlier FACs, and did not have to take an exam to get it, then whether it expired or not, you would have had to take the course/exam or challenge/exam in order to get the one that is presently working. This has been so since about 1993 or so. Now, if all of your guns are long arms (shotguns and rifles), then you do not need more permits or whatever at present, but by 31 Dec 2002, you will, under the present law, have to have all of them registered. If you have hand guns (semi-autos or revolvers) or other restricted firearms, then you will have to renew range permit and obtain a renewal of the C-302 form (the one that allows you to carry the gun from the home to range to home again). Hope this answers your question. Robin Leech - ----- Original Message ----- From: rbaker Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 8:07 AM Subject: License ? > I have been a gun owner-shooter-loader , and collector since 1946. > I obtained an FAC, and because I was late in renewing by one week I had > to write the exam (ridiculous). I now have the FAC. Do I have to obtain > a firearms license as well ? > > Rae Baker > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:30:26 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Gun control might put us in danger PUBLICATION: Calgary Herald DATE: 1999.12.08 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: Comment PAGE: A27 BYLINE: John Robson, The Ottawa Citizen. DATELINE: OTTAWA Gun control might put us in danger: Signs suggest that Canadians would be safer with guns in their households The first rule of coping with problems is that if you're in a hole you should stop digging. This is particularly true if the hole is rectangular and approaching six feet deep. But there's Justice Minister Anne McLellan making the dirt fly as she solemnly declares her intention to figure out some way to stem the rising tide of home invasions. All she really needs to do is to climb out of the hole she's digging, toss in the federal firearms control act and shovel dirt over it. For the increase in home invasions is just one reflection of the fact that if you disarm law-abiding citizens, you make life easier for criminals and harder for the rest of us. For instance, a drastic gun control law in Britain in 1988 had the effect of reducing legal firearm ownership by 22.4 per cent in just five years. A crime-controller's dream, right? Wrong. Violent crime went up 33.6 per cent in those years, robbery 80.6 per cent and, the punch line, robbery with a gun went up 117 per cent. By 1993, a resident of Britain was more likely to be a victim of violent crime than a resident of the United States, and the average Briton now has a 60 per cent chance of being the victim of a burglary during their lifetime (to be fair, the lower rate of gun ownership in Britain meant its burglary rate had already passed the American one in 1987, before the new law.) What's going on? Have the British people suddenly become much more evil? Despite the presence of Tony Blair at 10 Downing St., I don't think so. Rather, I think that criminals, being rational if neither clever nor decent, understand that homeowners are a lot less likely to be armed nowadays. That doesn't reduce either the material or psychological rewards of a burglary. But it sure reduces the risk, especially the risk that someone might be home to fight back. That's why, as Florida State University criminologist David Kopel found in 1997, 44 per cent of household burglaries in Canada are ``hot,'' that is, they happen while someone is home, but only 13 per cent in the United States, where the lead is hot instead. And we know why: Interviews with American felons have revealed clearly that they avoid occupied houses because they are afraid of being shot. It is, to be sure, a chronic shortcoming of Liberal thinking to deny that people are rational. From the brain drain to environmental legislation to crime, they simply cannot seem to grasp that people are rational and respond to incentives. But criminals understand that if we lower the costs of crime but not the rewards, we will get more of it (all else being equal, of course: we know that crime is primarily a young man's game, so it responds to demographics too). American experiments have confirmed this theory. After Florida passed a law allowing citizens to carry concealed handguns in 1987, its murder rate fell 20 per cent while the national rate rose 14 per cent (Florida went from 36 per cent above the average to four per cent below), and handgun-related homicides fell 29 per cent. (There was, however, an upsurge in attacks on tourists because rental car plates were the equivalent of a big neon sign saying ``I'm not armed, rob me.'' Eventually car rental agencies stopped marking their cars.) The Florida result is not an anomaly: violent crime rates are 81 per cent higher in states without laws requiring the issuing of concealed handgun permits on request than those with, and murder rates are 127 per cent higher. Criminals are dumb, but not as dumb as politicians: After the town of Kennesaw, Georgia, passed a law requiring every household to have a gun and ammunition, the burglary rate per 1,000 people fell from 11 to under three. Of course, Kennesaw's law is an infringement on liberty, because if you want to be vulnerable that's your right. But speaking of big neon signs, if you don't believe all this, you can buy a sticker saying ``This is a gun-free home'' and put it right in your front window to show that your heart is in the right place even if your brain hasn't been heard from lately. These don't sell very well, for much the same reason that ``Kick me'' signs don't, but if you want one you should have that choice. Unfortunately, Anne McLellan, like the British government, has decided to stick one of these things on your house whether you want it or not. So perhaps you should get a dog. Or maybe a new justice minister. At the rate this one keeps digging, she'll never get out of that hole she's in. John Robson is senior writer and deputy editorial page editor for the Ottawa Citizen. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:30:55 -0600 From: rmcreat@istar.ca (Michelle Traver) Subject: War Measures Act is now the Emergency Act News reports this morning indicate Cretien will impliment the newly amended "War Measures Act", now known as the "Emergency Act" as early as Dec. 27. It is to remain in effect until Jan. 4, 2000. Suggestion; ask your MP for the amendments, time is short for this. Comments? Privacy is a sacred thing, Michelle Traver (owner) SSAC NCBCS Pres. & Spokesperson HACS member, PPLC Assoc. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/9460/index.html 604-253-3311 fax 604-255-2202 1708 E. 1st Ave. Vancouver, BC V5N 1B1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:30:48 -0600 From: rmcreat@istar.ca (Michelle Traver) Subject: Last night's Round Table To all who successfully phoned in, many thanks for your effort. Many thanks to those who tried and didn't get through. It was interesting, even though not surprising, to hear Police Chief Ford through "facts" around without evidence to support the claims. When last I checked, statements such as his were called opinions when stated without evidence to prove them as fact. He claimed that there have been over 14,000 deaths caused by firearms in the past ten years. This means over 1,400 per year. Given what we know from the controversial RCMP report to the Justice Minister a couple of years ago, I'm left wondering what geographical coverage he was refering to. Privacy is a sacred thing, Michelle Traver (owner) SSAC NCBCS Pres. & Spokesperson HACS member, PPLC Assoc. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/9460/index.html 604-253-3311 fax 604-255-2202 1708 E. 1st Ave. Vancouver, BC V5N 1B1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:30:15 -0600 From: Jim Davies Subject: All you need to know about Conservative gun policy On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: > [Conservative] Prime Minister Brian Mulroney appointed Kim Campbell to > the justice portfolio and put gun legislation at the top on her to-do > list. > Campbell's bill pleased gun-control activists... > Eight years after her gun law was passed, Campbell, now Canada's > consul-general in Los Angeles, is clearly still still proud of her work,,, > ``There's no evidence that registering guns reduces the level of gun > violence. It's not that I don't think it's something worth doing, (but) it's > something you do much later.'' ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > The former justice minister and prime minister refused to elaborate... A vote for Joe Who is a vote for lieberal gun confiscation. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:30:35 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Firearms: RCMP Officers Turned into Paper-Pushers Translation from French to English Firearms: RCMP Officers Turned into Paper-Pushers Andre-A Bellemare, Le Soleil, December 3, 1999, Sports section, Chasse et peche [hunting and fishing] column, page D5 In August 1999, federal Justice Minister Anne McLellan told the Canadian Police Association conference in Regina, Saskatchewan, that implementing and operating the system to register firearms and their owners would not take police officers off Canada's streets. However, an RCMP document dated September 30, 1999 shows that the RCMP has allocated a total of 391 person-years to the firearms registration project. This document was obtained following a request under the Access to Information Act filed by Garry Breitkreuz, Reform Party MP for Yorkton--Melville, Saskatchewan and Official Opposition Critic for Firearms. In British Columbia, the federal government seconded 24 RCMP officers to the provincial Attorney General to set up the firearms register, even though it is also paying British Columbia to set up the register. ''These 24 highly qualified officers are being turned into paper-pushers and prevented from patrolling the streets and investigating crime,'' declared Breitkreuz. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:30:09 -0600 From: "Jim Hinter" Subject: NFA Calgary Christmas Open House Are you in the Calgary Area? Stop by the National Firearms Association Calgary Office for some Christmas Season Cheer on Friday 10 December 1999 from 6 PM to 9 PM and on Saturday 11 December 1999 from 10 AM to 4 PM. Find out the latest on what is going on in the battle to win the fight to protect our rights! Our address is 334 -- 53rd Ave. SE in Calgary. For more information, call (403) 640-1110 Jim... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:30:34 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Bar crowd called idiots for tackling robber PUBLICATION: The Saskatoon StarPhoenix DATE: 1999.12.08 SECTION: Local PAGE: A7 HEADLINE: Bar crowd called idiots for tackling robber Regular customers at Stan's Place on Ruth Street are under fire from police for disarming a robber carrying a sawed-off shotgun at closing time on Sunday. "They're not heroes, they're idiots," said Staff Sgt. Glenn Thomson. "What they did was extremely dangerous. They didn't know the gun was not loaded. It's especially stupid because he (the robber) walked in when it was open." Kirk Kelly Sabit, who appeared in provincial court on Monday, remains in police custody. He is charged with robbery with a firearm, possession of an instrument used for breaking and entering, three counts of breaching an undertaking and careless use of a firearm. He returns to court Friday for a bail hearing. A man wearing a ski mask and carrying a sawed-off shotgun walked into the south-side lounge just after midnight Sunday. He demanded money and then was jumped by one customer, "and then a whole bunch more," Thomson said. Lounge owner Stan Prokopetz said there were about 10 people in the bar when the incident happened. Prokopetz was in the back cashing out for the evening when he heard the scuffle. He said the altercation was over by the time he came out from the back. There were no injuries. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:42:12 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: BREITKREUZ ISSUES HIS OWN 1ST ANNUAL REPORT NEWS RELEASE December 9, 1999 For Immediate Release BREITKREUZ ISSUES HIS OWN 1ST ANNUAL REPORT ON THE FIREARMS REGISTRY "The Justice Minister's 'culture of safety' report perpetuates Liberal 'culture of deceit' about firearms." Ottawa - Today, Garry Breitkreuz, MP for Yorkton-Melville and Official Opposition Firearms Critic, issued his own 1st Annual Report on the Firearms Registry. "Unfortunately, the Justice Minister left a lot out of her annual report last week. Why did she leave out most of the facts that her own department sends me in response to my Access to Information Requests?" asked Breitkreuz. COSTS: Registration system has cost more than $300 million so far! USER FEES: Only $2.9 million in user fees collected in first six months of operation! BUDGET: Justice Department has still not released the registry's budget for this fiscal year! SECRECY: Cabinet secrecy used to hide 172 pages of documents on true costs of gun registry! BUREAUCRATS: As many as 800 paper pushers working in the firearms registration scheme! RCMP: RCMP have diverted resources from law enforcement to employ 391 on firearms registry! CRIME: Statistics Canada reports 98% of violent crime victims never encounter firearms! HOMICIDE STATS: 46% of all murders committed with handguns despite 65-year-old handgun registry! POLICE: Criminal incidents have doubled since 1970 but number of police officers per capita dropping! ERRORS: 80% error rate in the registration system! How can police believe a registry riddled with errors? NON-COMPLIANCE: RCMP report less than 10% compliance! What use will this be to police? BACKLOGS: Backlogs are increasing despite 70% lower than expected number of applications! INEFFICIENCY: Consultants' report states "workflow is inflexible and inefficient" at registry! FIREARM LICENCES: Only 87,825 photo IDs issued in first year of operation. Only 2.5 to 6.5 million to go! GUN REGISTRATIONS: Only 260,464 "registration certificate numbers" issued. Only 6 to 20 million to go! DEADLINES: Minister's firearms experts say production must increase from 1,500 per day to 13,500 per day! ERROR ADMITTED: Government memo admits error in estimating number of guns and gun owners! NUMBER OF GUN OWNERS: Government estimates = 3 million. More reliable estimates = 7 million! NUMBER OF GUNS: Government estimates = 7 million. More reliable estimates = 21 million! BLACKMARKET: Minister's firearms experts say registry is causing an increase in black-market gun sales! USER GROUP: Minister ignored recommendations of her handpicked team of firearms experts! BLOCKED GUN SALES: Gov't could have used FAC licencing system to block legal gun sales since 1979! PRIVACY: False information in RCMP data bank being used to block thousands of legitimate gun sales! UNITED STATES: Blocked 160,000 gun sales in last year and U.S. doesn't even have a gun registry! RCMP: Poll of front-line officers was suppressed and RCMP Commissioner played politics to support registry! POLICE OPPOSED: Majority of front-line police officers still opposed to registration of all rifles and shotguns! BOGUS POLLS: Liberals still using bogus polls to impose useless registry on an unsuspecting public! CONFISCATION: Government is in the process of confiscating firearms without compensation! ECONOMIC IMPACT: Cabinet secrecy used to hide 115-page report on economic impact of registry! LEGAL CHALLENGE: Six provinces and two territories are challenging the registry in the Supreme Court! "I could go on but one page of truths is enough to leave the Liberals a little over-exposed on this issue, concluded Breitkreuz. "The Minister's 'culture of safety' report perpetuates Liberal 'culture of deceit'." - -30- For more information, please call: Yorkton Office: (306) 782-3309 Ottawa Office: (613) 992-4394 e-mail: breitg0@parl.gc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:32:43 -0600 From: "Bill Pernokis" Subject: RE: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #227 (What's forgotten by Cukier, Rock, Anne McLellan and the Prime Minister is that Lepine had a permit for the murder weapon) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:32:43 -0600 From: Steve Grover Subject: DeRegistering Antiques Good Day - A friend of mine has 2 handguns, an 1851 Remington .32 rimfire 4 barrell pepperbox and an 1849 Colt Pocket Revolver, .31 cal Cap & Ball. They are both currently registered but I think they may qualify as antiques. Can anyone confirm they are antiques and provide information as to wether or not they can be deregistered? If so, how does one go about that? He liked the idea of going gopher shooting that Dave T. suggested without needing an ATT. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:32:52 -0600 From: Randy Coombes Subject: U.N. coming for your guns U.N. coming for your guns Private groups, governments team up to severely restrict firearms ownership ? 1999 WorldNetDaily.com American gun owners and advocacy groups like the National Rifle Association are suddenly finding that when it comes to firearms legislation, they had better pay attention to what's happening not only in Congress and their state legislatures, but at the United Nations, where the Second Amendment is being quietly dismantled behind closed doors. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:32:43 -0600 From: Ian Berg Subject: Re: Weapons like Marc Lepine's still sold 10 years after killings > Sergeant Don Cole, an armament officer with the tactical training unit, > praised it yesterday as a high-powered rifle suitable for urban police work > because the small bullet tends to kill only the first person it hits. > "Once it hits something, it basically disintegrates, because it's so small, > travelling very, very fast. Once it hits a person, it stays inside of them > for that reason; it doesn't plow right through. It offers tremendous > stopping power and allows the officer greater stand-off distance." Put away the pepper spray. It sounds like the Mini-14 will be weapon of choice for government agents of the Prime Minister's Office when ordered to crack down on unregistered firearm-owners. Ian Berg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:32:53 -0600 From: "Redmond, Gerry (DNRE/F&W)" Subject: Advertising Standards... In reference to the MADD television commercial that maligns gun owners, I recently saw an advertisement from Advertising Standards Canada that may be an appropriate place to lodge complaints. Here is what their ad states: "So what do you do if an ad causes you concern? Simple. Let us know. We're Advertising Standards Canada, the industry's self-regulatory body. We administer the Canadian Code of Advertising Standards; a code developed by and for the advertising industry. It sets the standards for responsible advertising in Canada. For more information call our toll free line. If you have a concern about an ad, write to us. We guarantee a prompt response." Advertising Standards Canada 350 Bloor Street East Suite 402 Toronto, ON M4W 1H5 Toll free: 1-887-656-8646 http://www.adstandards.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:32:43 -0600 From: "Alan Harper" Subject: Re: License ? > I have been a gun owner-shooter-loader , and collector since 1946. > I obtained an FAC, and because I was late in renewing by one week I had > to write the exam (ridiculous). I now have the FAC. Do I have to obtain > a firearms license as well ? > > Rae Baker ======================= You didn't have to take the exam because you were one week late. You had to take it because nobody is exempt. If you had tried to get another one before it expired, you would have still had to pass the exam. Your valid FAC is a Firearms License. Make sure you save a copy of your exam results. Don't give up your last copy of it. If you do, sure as hell they will say, "Gee. Sorry, Mr. Baker, we can't seem to find your test results." Keep the faith, Rae. C-68 is going down in flames. Do you remember full registration during the war? Bye. Al. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:32:52 -0600 From: "T. Bryant" Subject: Ranges and Research I happened to drop by the CFC web site this morning. Trying to get info on the Shooting Range Regulations. I have been hearing that these regulations are not yet in affect as they have been deferred. While at the site I noticed that they had set up a section on Firearms Research. Boy was that an eye opener! Of the seven reports that I looked at ALL had been paid for by the CFC. Of the seven reports NOT ONE would have stood up to a valid peer review. Holes in methodology, assumptions and conclusions abound. Over all research approaches were clearly client driven i.e.. CFC pays CFC gets what it wants. The release of self serving reports under the guise of research is propaganda pure and simple. If this is the "RESEARCH" that is being used to sell the discrimination and prejudice represented by the new gun laws then the public is being had big time. What really makes me angry is that my tax dollars are being used to discriminate against me. Sort of like making blacks pay for Ku Klux Klan memberships. Oh by the way does anyone know anything about the implementation of the Range Regulations? ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #230 **********************************