From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #238 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, December 20 1999 Volume 03 : Number 238 In this issue: Violent kids odd timing FW: Imagine having these rules for car ownership RE: We'll obey the law, right? The pendulum effect CFOs, ATTs, etc. Humane Society? Allan Scotts Content & Filters Re: Cause to own? "We will obey the law?" R.E. Allen Scott Digest#237 Things ain't right in "jolly old England." Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #237 MAJOR PRIVACY BREACH -- write those letters... Re: SKS mags ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:20:27 -0600 From: "Jason Hayes" Subject: Violent kids From: rbaker Subject: Random shootings in the USA. I watch and read the senseless shootings and killing by young people . I can't help but see that much of this is influenced by the lessons taught by the various video games. eg DOOM etc. (snipped) Rae Baker Those games are designed to teach kids the type of hand / eye coordination that is required by soldiers. They train kids to have the immediate point and shoot reaction that is needed to keep someone alive in a combat situation. For example, I recently saw a commercial for a new game where a businessman (dressed in a suit - briefcase, etc) is walking down a city street. Whenever he sees someone on the street, the TV screen jumps to a video game screen and the person he was approaching becomes an enemy (i.e. they are armed and approaching him). Part of the screen change includes a crosshair that quickly centers over top of this other person. You see a flash and the person drops (obviously they were just shot). This happens three or four times (one of the times, he is using a rocket launcher to take people out on a crosswalk). The eerie part is the way they flip back and forth from a real picture to the video game. Also, I was watching TV recently and they had a cop on who claimed to be a trainer for several ERT teams in large cities in the States. He told a story of a kid who had never touched a gun (of any sort) before he shot several kids in his school. Apparently he was extremely good at these conflict simulation video games. On the day that he decided to start shooting in his school, he stole a handgun (again, the first time he had touched one) and took it to school. When he got into his class, he fired 8 shots - in those eight shots, he made seven hits. Four head shots and three upper body hits - with a handgun that he had never shot before. The cop's description of the shooting was that most of the officers that he trained for several days (and who had been using firearms for several years) could not shoot like this kid. Strange that the anti-firearms types will sue gun manufacturers for making products that are dangerous but then not bat an eye at this. Don't get me wrong, I believe strongly that the producers of those games have every right to make them. I don't believe for a second that one of those games will make a kid a killer any more than a gun would. It is the lack of education / training from responsible adults that encourages improper actions. The kids cannot always make the right decisions on their own - that is what they have parents for. Jason Hayes B.Sc., Tech Graduate Studies Student, U of Calgary Faculty of Environmental Design (Environmental Science) Personal : jthayes@home.com, hayes_jt@yahoo.com http://www.members.home.net/jthayes - - Environmental / Forestry Consulting - - PC Upgrades and Repairs - - Independent Shaklee Distributor Business : hayesholdings@home.com http://www.members.home.net/hayesholdings **************************************************************************** **** "The politicians don't just want your money. They want your soul. They want you to be worn down by taxes until you are dependent and helpless." -- James Dale Davidson, National Taxpayers Union **************************************************************************** **** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:20:30 -0600 From: "Paul Chicoine" <701506@ican.net> Subject: odd timing Many of you may have read the article which claimed Canadians support the new gun registry. In was in my paper on Dec 1. On Dec 2, I wrote and sent the letter below. On Dec 7 the Gazette called to confirm I had indeed sent the letter. On Dec 8 an editorial called for even tighter gun control and quoted the "official " cost at $120m and that 3 of 4 citizens want stricter controls etc.. On Dec 9 they ran my letter. Its almost like they set themselves up. It also seems like I ran right into the "Clarity Act" announcement. Talk about timing. The Montreal Gazette Published December 9, 1999 Section B : letters to the editor byline: Spending to implement gun law wasteful (Original date sent: December 2, 1999 (347 words)) On Dec. 1, the Gazette reported that Canadians solidly back the federal gun law. I would suggest public awareness of Bill C-68, the Firearms Act, ranks right up there with those citizens who believe that after a vote for sovereignty they will still be sending Quebec MPs to Ottawa. How can citizens possibly forgive cost overruns when the actual costs have been declared a Cabinet secret and therefore immune to Access to Information request? Allan Rock promised a total cost of $85 million, and Justice Minister Anne McLennan will only admit to spending $300 million. On Nov. 11, the Gazette reported the contents of a confidential RCMP document which places the amount spent at $720 million and that the program is in need of an urgent infusion of additional funds. The government has admitted the registry will require $60 million a year to operate, an amount in addition to the unknown set up costs. The government trumpets that 1,000 of the 171,500 applicants for the revamped licenses have been denied. What has not been reported is how many of those negative decision have been overturned after appeal. This is an interesting oversight, since an incorrect answer to any question on the application form is grounds for initial refusal. An advertised processing period of 45 days has evolved into an average wait of eight months. Given this rate, it is impossible to meet legislated deadlines to process the estimated 3 million to 7 million license owners. Canadians were led to believe that C-68 would make us safer. The resulting explosion in smuggled guns have brought the price down to within the range of any street thug and therefore has had the predicted, opposite effect. Needless to say, crooks don't register their guns. In August, The Canadian Police Association voted to petition the Auditor-General to undertake a value-for-money audit of C-68. This nugget of information has never been released for general public consumption. As usual, millions can be wasted for politically correct projects while funding for programs that really count, like hospital or hungry kids are left waiting. Paul Chicoine Laval ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:07:22 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: FW: Imagine having these rules for car ownership - -----Original Message----- From: Philip N. Gross [mailto:philipgross@home.com] Subject: RE: Imagine having these rules for car ownership Well, some of those rules make sense, many don't. On the other hand, cars produce significant economic benefits to society as a whole. Guns do not provide any economic benefit except to those using them in the conduct of a crime, and even then the supposed economic benefits are questionable. In other words, cars are an economic necessity, guns are boy toys! ========================== Philip N. Gross Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Cc: All Federal MP's All Senators All A-Team member ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:07:28 -0600 From: "Ron Hofman" Subject: RE: We'll obey the law, right? My comments follow: > Subject: We'll obey the law, right? > > > I hope not to offend anyone, but I think we need to agree publicly on a > few points: > > 1.. As law-abiding citizens and responsible firearms owners we will > obey the law, right? To the letter. And we'll make THEM obey the same law. And enjoy doing it. > 2.. Can we stop the name calling please? Colourful nick names for > federal officials may make us feel better, but they do nothing to > advance our cause. Sure, when they start respecting the responsible firearms community for who we really are and not who they think we are. > 3.. The pendulum is bound to swing our way again, as people get fed > up with the amount of regulation in their lives. It's not going to happen unless we push it to swing to a different tune. Ron NFA Field Officer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:07:31 -0600 From: Jim Davies Subject: The pendulum effect On Sun, 19 Dec 1999, Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: > 3.. The pendulum is bound to swing our way again, as people get fed > up with the amount of regulation in their lives... Sadly, I disagree. Case in point: Britain. Heading off to third world status on a ship named Moral Righteousness. So are we. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:07:24 -0600 From: Lee Jasper Subject: CFOs, ATTs, etc. I read with interest Peter Cronhelm's description of the ATT application problems caused by his provincial CFO. It seems we have had a continuous stream of complaints about the Alberta and Ontario CFOs that have been reported on the CFD. Does it not strike you as a strange coincidence that these complaints come from citizens in Canada's two most fed Lib bashing provinces, Klein's Alberta and Harris's Ontario. And they are the leaders of the Supreme Court constitutional challenge of C-68. Now you would think that if they can micro manage all health care and education services in their provinces they could get on top of their CFO's firearm's units. A simple task indeed! The anti feds are worse than the feds! These two provincial governments especially, persist in going beyond the intent and the spirit of the federal firearms legislation - to the point were they are frequently in violation of the law themselves. Like with their CFOs' refusal to follow the provisions in the Firearms Act and the Firearms Act Regulations and exempt experienced applicants for FPALs from the CFSC Exams unless these persons persist and refuse to be manipulated and harassed into taking one or two CFSC challenge exams. And in Ontario the government cancelled the Spring Bear Hunt without consultation. Does anyone else see anything wrong with this scenario? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:07:35 -0600 From: Brian W Bedingfield Subject: Humane Society? I picked this off the "Canadian News Wire" today. What can I say... Sheesh. Attention News Editors: Cowards and killing grounds ... like shooting fish in a barrel VANCOUVER, Dec. 19 /CNW/ - The Humane Society of Canada has been carrying out a four-year investigation into killing grounds located in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec and other parts of Canada. "In our opinion, these macho men are nothing more than brutal cowards. Their lives are so empty that the only way they can feel better is by shooting a helpless wild animal trapped inside a fenced in compound," said a disgusted Al Hickey, Western Regional Director for The Humane Society of Canada. For example it costs $ 20,000 to blow a gaping hole in a bighorn sheep. You can kill a penned up musk ox for $ 10,000. Some of the animals are even listed as endangered species on the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species to which Canada is a long time signatory. "We are opposed to the recreational killing of wildlife in all of its forms," said O'Sullivan. "A recent study for the Canadian Wildlife Service shows that millions of people share our views on this issue. Less than 5% of all Canadians hunt and this number is becoming smaller with each passing year." The animals come from zoos and game farms and are obtained through a series of brokers who buy and sell wildlife. In response to a public backlash, some zoos have said they have a policy on paper not to sell wildlife for canned hunts -- however, they also admit that this policy is virtually impossible to enforce once they sell the animal. For example, the Metro Toronto Zoo sold three sable antelope to a game farm in Alberta, which in turn sold them to a killing ground in Texas. British Columbia allows the slaughter of fenced in wildlife. Saskatchewan allows the killing of deer and elk to be slaughtered in penned up enclosures. "Alberta allows the killing of bison and wild boar in this way. Ranchers want to be able to include elk and deer so these wackos can slaughter elk and deer for between $ 5,000 and $ 10,000 a pop," said O'Sullivan. This in turn is opposed by another group of recreational wildlife killers who feel that it is only fair to kill these animals in the wild. "We can certainly see their point of view," O'Sullivan sarcastically: "These guys drive into the woods with their trucks and then some of them rely on the use of baited sites. Then using telescopic sights fitted onto a high-powered rifle they kill a wild animal using a bullet traveling at over 1,200 feet per second. I'm sure that the wild animal really appreciates that these guys go that extra distance to be good sportsmen," he said. "We're thinking of asking government health care agencies to establish a special fund for recreational wildlife killers. Because in my opinion, these people have a bolt loose in their head," he said. And according to government wildlife agencies -- who are paid to protect wildlife, not sanction their slaughter -- all of this is perfectly legal. "We could frankly care less what a bunch of moronic politicians and civil servants rubber stamp. It's just plain wrong to pen up wildlife and then shoot them like fish in a barrel. Waiting for politicians and bureaucrats to clean up this mess is a waste of time," said an angry O'Sullivan. For example, despite being part of a threatened species, several Wood Bison sold by Alberta's Elk Island National Park have ended up in these kinds of killing grounds. And yet, a survey by Environment Canada found that 95% of Canadians don't hunt. Another report showed that there was an average annual decrease of 17,558 hunters buying permits to hunt game birds. The Humane Society of Canada intends to develop new and creative ways to end this wanton slaughter and it isn't going to involve sitting around a table with talking with governments that already allow this kind of wanton slaughter. For more than 17 years, Al Hickey was the Chief Executive of the BC SPCA. During the past 30 years, Michael O'Sullivan has worked here in Canada and in over 75 countries protecting animals and the environment. - -30- For further information: Al Hickey or Michael O'Sullivan toll free at 1-800-641-KIND or cell phone (416) 876-9685 or visit our website at www.humanesociety.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:07:38 -0600 From: John Hansen Subject: Allan Scotts Speak for yourself Allan! We all want to play along with a corrupt lying Liberal Government who breaks their own laws , and use every dirty trick in the book to force their unworkable rules on us. Your letter remind me of when the Nazis occupied Denmark in 1940 , we were told by our so called peace loving government, don't rock the boat, everything will be all right, if you don't antagonize them. And don't tell me about how the nice people of Miramichi are bending over backwards to help us, sure they are just doing their job............Their job is to take yours and my property away. John Hansen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:07:41 -0600 From: MJ Subject: Content & Filters >From time to time valid comments on list content and individual 'style' are voiced. Everyone should have the opportunity to display their character including soapbox or sandbox. I find it much easier to filter incoming messages than attempting to change someone's self-expression especially if it's childish. It's easy with Eudora to set Filters [in the Tools menu] which automatically send an incoming message to the "Trash" directory if it contains keywords like abrasive nicknames, etc., or one can easily filter messages from a particular sender directly to Trash without using the delete button. One can also use filters to sort incoming mail into sub-directories for further sorting and processing. "we have the technology" MJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:07:44 -0600 From: MJ Subject: Re: Cause to own? Oh, that could never happen here. Remember, Alan Rock assured us that the new gun control laws would not inconvenience lawful gun owners. MJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:07:47 -0600 From: Mark.Thorn Subject: "We will obey the law?" R.E. Allen Scott Digest#237 I believe we are by and large law abiding citizens (firearm owners) and yet I have never seen so many ordinary people talking about civil disobedience. If a law is wrong, is it wrong to disobey it? The Nazi's were the legally elected goverment in Germay for a time in the 1930'and 40's Any one who hid a Jew was declared a Criminal because they were breaking "The Law" and yet today the are viewed as heroes. I don't mean to make a direct comparison between the two but to point out that it is not good for a nation to blindly follow "The Law" without thought to what is right. Most people that drive on occasion break a highway law, if caught they don't like it,but know they are in the wrong I have not talked to a single person who said they would register ALL their guns and none of them feel they are wrong! These are not "BAD" people but ordinary folks. THANX FOR YOUR TIME MONK. Moderator please don't post my E.mail address. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:07:52 -0600 From: "Peter Kearns" Subject: Things ain't right in "jolly old England." Remember that wonderful civilised peaceful place that Annie and Wendy want us to emulate? (The utopian socity of the "United Kingdom.") Well during the last few weeks the "West Midlands," (an area about 80 miles long by 80 miles wide,) experienced EIGHT firearms related crimes! The latest one had a gangland style exchange of shots from (shudder) illegal handguns. One of the participants drove off in a "hail of gunfire," (sound familiar?) He ran his vehicle off the road thirty yards away and started running; with the other participants enthusiastically joining in. (As I remember he was later shot four times in the head.) The talking head on the news channel said, "the Chief Constable has pledged to do all he can to rid us of illegal handguns, which have reached epidemic proportions.........." (REMEMBER, THIS IS THE COUNTRY WHO'S LAWS OUR GOVERNMENT COPIED TO ENACT C-68.) Also topping their news "breaking stories!" Almost fifty people picketed a farm, (just a short distance from my dads,) protesting at the rearing of guinea pigs for medical experiments! "Almost fifty" was at actual count "twelve," (and they were a grungy bedraggled bunch of misfits.) There were however, more than fifty police present, (some armed!) and they blocked off a main road just in case there "may" be riots! As a (onetime) resident of the area, (a verrrrrry long time ago,)I found the picketing extremely exciting, particularly as the protesters were happily and noisily picketing the wrong location! My dad knows the farmer who owns that farm, and the one who raises trillions of "endangered" guinea pigs, and all three of them had a really good laugh. (Judging by the media reports, the feds may have had the "poison dwarf" trained over here in statistics and numbers!) Have a really great Christmas folks, and remember IF the government takes away all the legal guns they will end up with a "perfect" society, just like "jolly old," where every criminal will have guns, and the rest of the citizenry will be victims ardently "fostering a culture of safety." Peter Kearns Simon says: How the hell did we allow people who drive on the wrong side of the road to convince our elected officials that they knew anything about gun control! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:07:56 -0600 From: sstack Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #237 "It is your moral duty and obligation to disobey an unjust law!" ... Dr Martin Luther King Jr. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:07:59 -0600 From: ":-)" Subject: MAJOR PRIVACY BREACH -- write those letters... Letters should go to: lettertoed@thestar.ca And don't forget a complaint to the Privacy Commissioner also... http://www.thestar.com/editorial/news/991218NEW01b_CI-PRIVACY18.html Today's Issue December 18, 1999 For sale: Secrets of your licence plates By Jim Rankin and Phinjo Gombu Toronto Star Staff Reporters ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:08:03 -0600 From: "T. Bryant" Subject: Re: SKS mags If you own an SKS and have purchased a five shot replacement magazine check the capacity immediately!! Over a friend's place on the weekend and he was showing me the replacement magazines that he installed. They are fixed box like the original but much shorter - made in China and sold as five shot mags. Out of curiosity I tried a ten shot stripper to see if it would feed ok. SIX rounds fit into the mag and fed properly. DARN now he has to butcher the mag to restrict to five. As soon as I discovered the problem and pointed it out my friend became a criminal by owning an over capacity magazine. I probably became a criminal because I didn't turn him in. Yes a culture of safety was protected by our discovery .....NOT! I doubt that the removable mags have this problem but check the fixed ones. My friend was neutral towards the Liberals and this C-68 lie but not anymore. As he put it - "They want us to think we are jumping through hoops to keep our guns but really we are jumping through a noose that they keep tightening - screw them!" Pity the Liberal or even Conservative that comes to him for a vote. Remember that the Liberals may be the current scoundrels but the Conservatives made it all possible. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #238 **********************************