Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:32:36 -0600 Message-Id: <200001061432.IAA19171@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #246 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, January 6 2000 Volume 03 : Number 246 In this issue: Re: More on Toronto shooting Armes_policiers_municipaux_embrigade Banning replicas NFA OTTAWA Meeting Re: CTV again re "replica's" NFA Members going to UA/Reform Meeting in Ottawa 47% of Currently Registered Guns Slated for Confiscation ELECTORAL DECORUM JGA Zella-Melis Info Bickering United Alternative On Firearms Gun-registry files aren't secure from mafia hackers Guns save 3,300 Canadian lives every year ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:56:38 -0600 From: EW Subject: Re: More on Toronto shooting The man was using a Crossman 1911 style pellet gun. A replica of firarm is, by definition, unable to fire a projectile. This is VERY important because the Fed is trying to shut down airsoft guns importation by labelling them as replicas. In case you don't know what airsoft guns are, they are air guns modelled after real firearms. They are used in sports shooting and war game. It is getting popular in North America as gun control is getting out of control in many parts of this continent. Enoch ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:57:00 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Armes_policiers_municipaux_embrigade Chronique de BELLEMARE, a publier le jeudi 30 decembre 1999. TITRE SUGGERE~: Armes~: la SQ est a bout de souffle Anne McLellan, ministre de la Justice et Procureur general du Canada, nous raconte des histoires a dormir debout lorsqu'elle pretend que le processus d'enregistrement des armes a feu et de leurs proprietaires ne reduit en rien l'efficacite des corps policiers national, regionaux et municipaux. Elle grimpe dans les rideaux lorsque des opposants a ce processus soutiennent que les policiers du pays doivent abandonner la lutte aux criminels pour <~gratter du papier~> en ce qui concerne le controle des armes a feu. La ministre ne semble pas etre bien informee de ce qui survient en realite sur le plancher des vaches... Ainsi, depuis quelques semaines, la Surete du Quebec (SQ) a embrigade des corps policiers municipaux pour reduire la montagne de dossiers qu'elle a accumules depuis un an dans ce domaine de l'enregistrement des armes a feu et de leurs proprietaires. Au Quebec, c'est la SQ qui doit normalement faire le travail de la GRC et qui doit enqueter sur les demandes de permis de possession d'armes a feu et sur les demandes de certificats d'enregistrement d'armes formulees par des chasseurs de chez nous. (ST)Surprise Recemment, quelle ne fut pas la surprise d'un de mes amis, residant dans le sud-est de la region Chaudiere-Appalaches, lorsqu'il a recu un appel telephonique d'un policier d'une localite du sud-ouest de l'Estrie~: ce policier enquetait sur une demande bien precise de permis federal de possession d'armes a feu~! Interroge, le policier a candidement admis a mon ami que la SQ avait <~distribue~> des tas de dossiers de demandes de permis a des corps policiers municipaux pour qu'ils fassent les enquetes requises. A ce que ce policier en savait, la SQ ne suffisait plus a la tache et l'aide de corps policiers locaux avait ete reclamee pour rattrapper le retard. (ST)Questions Ce fait souleve quelques questions. Est-ce que les municipalites qui <~pretent~> ainsi discretement leurs policiers a la SQ pour proceder a ces enquetes seront dedommagees par le gouvernement provincial~? Car, meme si cela a toujours ete bien cache, Lucien Bouchard, premier ministre du Quebec et chef du Parti quebecois, se fait verser des dizaines de millions de dollars par Jean Chretien, premier ministre du pays et chef du Parti liberal du Canada, pour que la SQ accomplisse ici le travail devolu a la GRC quant au controle des armes a feu... Pourquoi les policiers municipaux acceptent-ils de remplacer la SQ~? On sait que Quebec a elimine des corps policiers municipaux pour les remplacer par des agents de la SQ en patrouille... Est-ce que les policiers municipaux accepteront encore longtemps d'accomplir des taches administratives pour lesquelles la SQ est payee par Ottawa~? Car les policiers municipaux se plaignent, depuis longtemps, qu'ils ne disposent pas du temps ni des outils suffisants pour lutter contre les criminels... Quand la ministre McLellan admettra-t-elle que ce processus inutile et ridicule d'enregistrement des armes a feu et de leurs proprietaires qui a deja coute des centaines de millions de dollars et qui en coutera encore d'autres... nuit a la lutte des policiers contre les criminels~? Qu'Anne McLellan n'essaie pas de nous tromper~: on a appris tout recemment que la GRC avait aussi embrigade des corps policiers municipaux dans les provinces de l'Ouest pour enqueter en son nom sur les demandes de permis de possession d'armes a feu et sur les demandes d'enregistrement d'armes~! (ST)Lutte contre le crime Les dirigeants du Bloc quebecois, au lieu de se fendre en quatre aux Communes d'Ottawa pour faire adopter leur resolution contre la violence dans les emissions de television, auraient du se preoccuper du fait que des policiers municipaux du Quebec sont transformes en <~gratte-papier~> au service de la GRC federale pour ecoeurer les chasseurs de notre province... Les policiers municipaux seraient bien plus utiles dans la lutte contre les criminels et contre la violence s'ils patrouillaient dans les rues au lieu d'etre assis dans leurs fauteuils pour enquiquiner les proprietaires de fusils et carabines de chasse~! Evidemment, le Bloc quebecois aurait l'air <~simple~> maintenant, puisqu'il a appuye le premier ministre federal Jean Chretien et l'ancien ministre federal de la Justice Allan Rock contre les chasseurs durant le debat sur le controle des armes a feu au pays... _______________________ Andre-A Bellemare, journaliste Quotidien LE SOLEIL (Quebec) AABellemare@lesoleil.com Tel.: (418) 686-3394 (#2496) Tel.: (800) 463-1892 Fax : (418) 628-8217 ________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:31:51 -0600 From: Jhogue Subject: Banning replicas Reference: PROGRAM: CTV NEWS DATE: 2000.01.04 TIME : 23:00:00 ET > WENDY CUKIER (Coalition For Gun Control): Clearly any starter pistols, air > pistols or pellet guns that closely resemble real fire arms should be > treated as replicas and therefore prohibited. Now let me get this straight. The individual advocating a total ban of anything that merely looks like a gun is the same one who has been denying for the last 10 years that the purpose of registration is confiscation of real firearms that shoot real bullets. Duh ! (by the way, what was that recent bit about how guns do not have the economic benefits of cars after 10 years of whining that gun registration should be just like car registration ?) I probably am as much an expert on police operations as this genius is (meaning: clueless), so maybe a real police officer could comment on the following : under less than ideal lighting conditions, how can an officer instantly determine from a distance whether or not what the suspect is holding a perfect imitation of a firearm or something that is found by monday morning quaterbacks to not so closely ressemble a real firearm after all when they hold it in their hands in broad daylight ? Tell us Wendy, since you are so concerned about the well-being of someone who can't figure out for himself the likely response from an armed police officer who perceives himeself to be jeopardy, how many years in jail do you advocate for those in possession of prohibited replicas ? For their own good, of course. I am just curious as to what would have prevented the hostage-taker from using a real knife in his bargaining ploy instead of a replica gun (provided of course that this Pollyanna replica prhibition law actually made replicas unavailable overnight). Perhaps it is the replica that made him do it. Thinking with your glands instead of your brains again. Typical. Take a break. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:32:04 -0600 From: "Jim Hinter" Subject: NFA OTTAWA Meeting The National Firearms Association will be hosting a public meeting on Wednesday 26 January 2000 in Ottawa at the Capital Hill Hotel and Suites. The meeting will start at 7:00 PM Guest speakers scheduled to attend include: Rob Anders MP (Calgary West) David Tomlinson; National President NFA Ray Laycock; National Administrator NFA Jim Hinter National Vice President Communications NFA The evening's program will include discussions on the firearm issue, the United Alternative conference, and the directions the National Firearms Association is headed. If you would like more information email: jhinter@nfa.ca Jim Hinter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:32:01 -0600 From: "Alan Harper" Subject: Re: CTV again re "replica's" > Last night and again this morning the CTV Network had a piece on what > they called "replica's", Wendy Cukier was interviewed. > I have been made aware "replica's" are controlled, so why do they put > this spin on it? > She used the term "replica's" as well, I think they mean BB and air > pistols. Every time some idiot does something stupid, like the man who > had a BB gun in St.Michaels hospital here, the demand goes up for more > stupid legislation. Not one person ever states "we must control illegal > firearms, ever. > I think this is the same reasoning "ban alcohol because there are too > many abuses", it did not work in the twenties and these laws will not > work now. True statement, "if we ban firearms, only the police and > criminals will have them". > I wonder why CTV are so adamant to ban guns? Plus, a few more Toronto > councellors are on the band wagon now. ========================= Let's not forget the memorable "War on Drugs". I remember back in the 60's, way back in the previous century. I remember that drugs were widely available and plentiful everywhere. 30 years of war on drugs has produced this result: drugs are widely available and plentiful everywhere. The do-gooders figure that if you pass a law, the problem is solved. If one law is not enough, then obviously, we need more laws. Make it double illegal. That'll fix'em. And if that doesn't work, we'll make it triple illegal. How many people remember that full firearms registration existed in Canada during W.W.II? All firearms were required to be registered. I can't imagine what the purpose was, perhaps to supply an invading army with lists of firearms to gather?????!!! It was quietly dropped after the war, due to massive non-compliance. Bye. Al. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:32:10 -0600 From: "Jim Hinter" Subject: NFA Members going to UA/Reform Meeting in Ottawa If you are a member of the National Firearms Association, and are headed to the United alternative Convention and Reform Assembly, can you send a private e-mail to jhinter@nfa.ca Jim Hinter Vice President Communications National Firearms Association ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:32:14 -0600 From: Randy Coombes Subject: 47% of Currently Registered Guns Slated for Confiscation 47% of Currently Registered Guns Slated for Confiscation The following is a reply to the 1999.12.29 Vancouver Sun Article "Gun Registry Costs Shoot Initial Hole in Budget" Apropos of the article "Gun Registry Costs Shoot Initial Hole In Budget", Canadian Firearms Centre (CFC) spokesperson Louis Cormier attempts to assuage Canadians fear of government confiscation of their firearms by poo-pooing "That's completely ludicrous.". Really??? The CFC claims to have 1.5 million guns registered. The 1998 Annual Firearms Report totals 1.2 million "restricted" firearms in Canada. Of these 58% or 699,000 are categorized by the CFC in one of the "grandfathered" categories. "Grandfathered" means that when the owner of these guns no longer qualifies to own them, they will be confiscated and destroyed without compensation to the owner or their estate. By my math the CFC admits that 47% of the guns currently registered are slated for eventual seizure and destruction. Tell me again why our fears are "ludicrous"? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:32:17 -0600 From: "BOB LICKACZ" Subject: ELECTORAL DECORUM * I lived on Eglinton Ave, an area of high rise apartments. * I went from building to building and gathered up > all the Conservative literature and put it in the trash can. Tsk, Tsk, Tsk. Fellow RFC members: As upstanding citizens of this great land we must not do such terrible things as wantonly destroy the propag... oops I mean political handouts of our foes. That simply isn't cricket. That task is best left to those who operate on the fringe of decent society - guys like Simon Jester. Bob Lickacz NFA Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:32:07 -0600 From: "Kim Horan" Subject: JGA Zella-Melis Info I have a small, single shot, bolt action in 22 calibre that is marked "JGA Zella-Melis Germany". I am trying to find out about it and its manufacturer. It's a "just legal" length, and seems to be build for a young adult. This action has an unusual extractor under the chamber that I have never seen before. If anyone can tell me anything about this I would be greatly appreciative. thanks Kim Moderator's Note: Please reply directly to Kim. DJP ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:31:53 -0600 From: rbaker Subject: Bickering I have become tired of the name calling and bickering that I read in the digest. I was under the impression that it was a forum to discuss things of mutual interest and to Intelligently comment on them. This is not the case. We are a house divided. I am not impressed by someone ,who sins his or her name with a bunch of letters. I believe they do this to impress themselves. Surely they do not think they impress others. If I signed my name with the letters GOD after the signature I would be considered a fool, and you would be correct. So I say be careful how you display yourself so that others will have some respect for you. My appologies to the general group, but this type of puffery spoils the group. Rae ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:32:21 -0600 From: "Jim Hinter" Subject: United Alternative On Firearms Here is the final draft of the United Alternative on Firearms: "We are committed to keeping guns out of the hands of criminals as a necessary part of making our communities safe. We will repeal the ineffective and expensive 1995 Bill C-68 and replace it with a cost-effective, practical alternative. We will protect the right of law-abiding citizens to own and responsibly use firearms, and enact severe mandatory penalties for use of a firearm in the commission of a crime." This draft is still available for amendment at the United Alternative Meeting in Ottawa in January. For the full draft visit www.unitedalt.org Jim Hinter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:32:25 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Gun-registry files aren't secure from mafia hackers PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 2000.01.04 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PNAME : Letters PAGE: A11 BYLINE: George Mowbray SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen Gun-registry files aren't secure from mafia hackers Regarding John Robson's column (``McLellan fires blanks in the gun-control debate, Dec. 8), I have written Ontario Premier Mike Harris, Prime Minister Jean Chretien, and various other key people to point out that the gun registry will be on a computer file because that is the only way a national registry can be put together and quickly analysed in future. However, under present security situations, the computerized file will almost certainly be sold by perfidious custodians or stolen by mafia hackers. It is a ready-made armoury list for the criminal element in this country. Keeping this thing secure is a massive task that I doubt has yet been seriously considered. One direction would be to keep it in hard copy form, by each municipality, in the police chief's safe. Then, if part of it got sold or stolen, it would only be a small portion of the total and of limited criminal value. No weapons collector in his right mind would register a valuable collection in a system like this. And, of course, no criminal will too. This makes the whole concept of the registry of only marginal practical value -- although of considerable political value because ``the government is doing something about guns'' (even if more hoopla than anything else). If I were a provincial premier, I would not administer this law under present levels of security risk. George Mowbray, Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:32:32 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Guns save 3,300 Canadian lives every year PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 2000.01.05 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PNAME : City Editorial Page PAGE: C4 BYLINE: Al Dorans SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen Guns save 3,300 Canadian lives every year Brian Ford's article (``Dec. 6 tragedy showed we need stricter gun laws,'' Dec. 7) illustrates how Canadians are being absolutely duped by the Ottawa-Carleton police chief and the national nightmare of Bill C-68. Mr. Ford says that gun registration will lead to a safer society. False. He presents no evidence to substantiate his claim. On the contrary, Deputy Prime Minister Herb Gray verified in the House that there is no evidence that Canada's 64-year-old handgun registration system had reduced crime or saved lives, despite a cost of $630 million. Mr. Ford then advises Canadians to repeat this mindless stupidity with rifles and shotguns at an additional $3.5 billion, for no gain. Unbelievable! When gun bans were implemented in Wales, England, Australia, New Zealand, New York City, Washington, D.C., Detroit and Chicago, violent crime rates soared. Compelling research by Wright and Rossi (1994) demonstrates that criminals simply move into such undefended vacuums and target defenceless citizens. Consequently, Canada would become a less safe society. Mr. Ford completely ignores the beneficial uses of firearms. Mauser and Buckner (1997) reported that Canadians use firearms 64,000 times a year for self-protection against animals and criminals. This results in a net saving of 3,300 lives each year. For every life lost with a firearm in Canada, 40 lives are saved. Firearms are a major net benefit to Canadian society. Mr. Ford claims that the Montreal shooting was a catalyst for change. False. It was an isolated act of violence perpetrated by a madman. Crushing Mr. Ford's argument for more and stricter gun laws, the Quebec justice minister of the day commented sharply, ``How can you possibly legislate against an act of insanity?'' The Montreal shooting was not a symbolic act of male violence against all women, as special interest groups and members of the growing grief industry promote. It was a rare emotional tragedy exploited by political opportunists to advance a social engineering agenda to turn Canada from a democracy into a police state where only the police and military have firearms. Mr. Ford says there is a gun problem in Canada. False. While polls indicate that 80 per cent of Canadians believe that crime is on the rise, Statistics Canada reveals that violent crime has been declining for the past seven years. The pattern is similar in the U.S. Biased media reporting accounts for the enormous gap. Recently, the United Nations' index revealed that of 152 countries, the three best in which to live are Canada, the U.S. and Norway. Furthermore, the three countries with the greatest number of firearms are the U.S., Norway and Canada. This suggests that the civilian ownership of firearms contributes significantly to safe societies. Why would intelligent people want to change that? Mr. Ford claims that stricter gun laws are needed. False. Canadians already have 1,600 pages of complex gun legislation that only 200 Canadians out of 30 million understand, including the police (Mauser and Buckner, 1997). Mr. Ford claims that after the Montreal shooting, he faced the vocal opponents of gun control. False. Those law-abiding firearms owners supported reasonable and effective gun-control laws that reduced crime and saved lives. Mr. Ford distorted and misrepresented their responsible positions. Mr. Ford claims that there are five million guns in the country. False. According to several government surveys, there are seven million gun owners and 21 million firearms in Canada. Mr. Ford's low-ball figure deliberately disguises the true political impact and conceals the astronomical costs of a needless registry. Mr. Ford contends that gun-control issues have become a major public safety and health issue. False. Such a claim leads to the ridiculous scenario of special interest groups such as the the victims' rights group CAVEAT, the Coalition for Gun Control and the Canada Safety Council volunteering their considerable lack of expertise to recommend senseless gun legislation. Firearms laws are more the domain of criminologists, researchers and legitimate experts. Mr. Ford then plays the emotional card, citing several tragic shootings as reasons to support C-68. However, he contradicted himself on television, admitting publicly that gun registration would not have prevented the OC Transpo tragedy, nor any of the others for that matter. C-68 requires mandatory registration and confiscation of private property without compensation. The maximum penalty for failure to register is a ridiculous 10 years in prison. Under access to information requests, we find that the RCMP predicts 10 per cent compliance. It's time to scrap C-68. Somewhere during his career, Mr. Ford lost his focus. He was supposed to be a servant of the people. He was supposed to apprehend criminals, not harass innocent citizens. Inside and outside the police force, Chief Ford's anticipated June retirement cannot arrive swiftly enough. Al Dorans is with the Canadian Institute for Legislative Action in Nepean. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #246 **********************************