Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:40:25 -0600 Message-Id: <200001260040.SAA13033@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #262 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, January 25 2000 Volume 03 : Number 262 In this issue: Ex- Polixce Chief CASSELS Re: [alert] NOTICE re CPFO Re: Wayne Cooper's NOTICE re CPFO Re: Wayne Cooper's NOTICE re CPFO "$25,000 reward for the arrest Re: [alert] NOTICE re CPFO Range Design Re: National Post Supreme Court Article CFC Computer System Failure on January 9, 2000 Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #261 GUN REGISTRY COSTS WERE HIDDEN Re: South Astrailian Arms Company ATTENTION: All Ontario gun owners Ranges in Alberta Re: [alert] NOTICE re CPFO Treason Registration equals confiscation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:01:41 -0600 From: acardin Subject: Ex- Polixce Chief CASSELS Anyone have any information on why he did not finish his contract in Winnipeg? Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:01:44 -0600 From: "Bert van Ingen" Subject: Re: [alert] NOTICE re CPFO I noticed the urgent plea to support the Provincial Firearms Office in Ontario to keep it from being disbanded. However I will be in no hurry just yet to do something. I find this situation to be analogous to a scenario where someone at the Jail says to support being screwed by one bad inmate in order not to be really screwed by an even worse one. Frankly I'm not interested in being screwed at all! If Ontario gets out of the Firearms business that would leave only the Feds. And my take of Federal dealings is: If you wish to completely and thoroughly destroy something put the Federal Government in charge of it. What we need is backroom storage and patience. There is a federal election coming up you know. The more inconvenienced and ticked off gun owners are the more likely they will sway voters. Bert van Ingen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:14:05 -0600 From: Don Clarke Subject: Re: Wayne Cooper's NOTICE re CPFO Wayne Cooper posted a notice from the IPSC Ontario website about the Ontario governments intention to withdraw from administering C-68. The Ontario Handgun Association was asking people to contact MPPs and ask them to oppose the move, because it would create hardship and aggravation to the firearm owners in Ontario. In my opinion, we should be asking the MPPs to make sure the Ontario government dumps the whole mess back into FEDERAL hands. Hopefully, it will cause lots of aggravation to firearms owners in Ontario. Hopefully, this will aggravate them enough to get politically active! Or to at least change their vote away from the Li(e)berals, eh! I've done my part. I e-mailed Harris a note asking that he dumps the mess into the Feds lap. Don Clarke Moderator's Note: Some of us in Ontario did not vote liberal in the last federal election. DJP ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:31:46 -0600 From: Don Clarke Subject: Re: Wayne Cooper's NOTICE re CPFO Wayne Cooper posted a notice from the IPSC Ontario website about the Ontario governments intention to withdraw from administering C-68. The Ontario Handgun Association was asking people to contact MPPs and ask them to oppose the move, because it would create hardship and aggravation to the firearm owners in Ontario. In my opinion, we should be asking the MPPs to make sure the Ontario government dumps the whole mess back into FEDERAL hands. Hopefully, it will cause lots of aggravation to firearms owners in Ontario. Hopefully, this will aggravate them enough to get politically active! Or to at least change their vote away from the Li(e)berals, eh! I've done my part. I e-mailed Harris a note asking that he dumps the mess into the Feds lap. Don Clarke Moderator's Note: Some of us in Ontario did not vote liberal in the last federal election. DJP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:45:57 -0600 From: "William R. Sherman" Subject: "$25,000 reward for the arrest So the "anti's" have found a seemingly "legitimate" way to hire "lowlifes" to harass farmers! So perhaps the FUR FARMERS might entertain the idea too and offer a $25,000 reward for the arrest and conviction of persons found harassing farmers, or something along that line. Fight fire with fire. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:45:56 -0600 From: "Ron McCutcheon" Subject: Re: [alert] NOTICE re CPFO >The OHA office has just been informed that the provincial government is seriously considering closing the CFO in Orillia, opting out of C-68 and leaving us at the mercy of Ottawa. With due respect to the OHA (of which I am a member). we ARE at the mercy of Ottawa. The Firearms Act is FEDERAL legislation. The CFO is only an administration and enforcement agency paid for by Ontario taxpayers. Mike Harris and the Ontario government have publically stated their opposition to the Firearms Act. They were widely applauded by the RFC for this position. To have them reverse themselves now would be a public relations disaster. The Federal Liberals created this monster. Let them pay to feed it. >Consider the following: >ranges re-inspected to the federal guidlines (most were closed in BC by this action) Correct me if I'm wrong. I believe this was done by the BC CFO under the orders of the provincial NDP Government. Do you think Harris will be in power for ever? A change in the provincial government and the Ontario CFO could do the same for us. Who do you think pays their salaries??? In any case, the same thing is happening in Ontario. One range where I am am member was closed for months to upgrade to the federal guidelines. Only recently has their permit to operate been extended - for one year only. > ATT wording to the federal guidlines (one permit per location and all guns listed.) Do you think the Ontario CFO issued permits good for all ranges and all our registered handguns for OUR convenience? They simply don't have the resources to do any other way. If the Feds want to put enough people in place to issue separate permit for each and every range in Ontario and list each registered handgun on every permit, let them go to it. I don't care if I have a suitcase full of permits. I care very much about how much it COSTS to administer this stupid law. If anything sinks the Firearms Act, it will be the weight of the ever-escalating administration costs. In order to help the process along, we as law abiding citizens must insist on strict compliance by the Federal government and it's agencies with all the stupid and expensive things THEY wrote into this law. Anything else simply helps to perpetuate this monstrosity. Why do you think they blinked on the SBH's. Not because they want us to keep them. Because the COST of trying to confiscate them all would be enormous. Also consider the situation where the Federal Government is unable to issue permits. Then the Morgentaler defense kicks in. If you simply CAN'T GET a permit, then you CAN'T be prosecuted for not having one. Bottom line: You won't see me asking Mike Harris to save the Ontario CFO. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:45:59 -0600 From: Bill Taylor Subject: Range Design I just received the NRA's "Range Source Book". The combined outdoor and indoor range manual lists for US$49.95. The actual landed cost was C$123, which included a totally unexpected UPS brokerage fee of $38. It's an excellent document, covering every step in planning, building and operating a shooting facility - well worth the price. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:45:55 -0600 From: Rick Lowe Subject: Re: National Post Supreme Court Article > mike said: > Aw cmon does anyone with a shred of knowledge about this issue > expect the government appointed SC to be any different than the > govt appointed senate when it comes to rubber stamping govt > policy. Well, I doubt government at any level will appoint judges they believe will be hostile towards their legislation. On the other hand, it is not exactly unheard of for the Court to rule against the government's interests. > Lets face it, these folks have spent most of their adult > lives securing a good seat on the gravy boat, so it's not likely > they will do anything to upset their free ride at taxpayers expense. Really? So you believe a Supreme Court justice makes more money on the "gravy boat" than they would make in private practice with some Bay Street law firm? > They only parrot the dominent public opinion at that time. Just like BC's supreme court did in the Robin Sharpe case, right? If these higher courts always parrot the dominent public opinion of the time, why is the Sharpe case now before the SCC? Seems to me public opinion was pretty clear long before we got to this point. I'm not an apologist for the Court, but it seems to me that as a general rule they make pretty good law - based within the framework of law and principles that they have to make their interpretations within. I don't always like their decisions - but then, ours is an adversarial system and it follows from this that each decision will leave one side unhappy with the ruling. Indeed, if one side wasn't happy with a previous decision to begin with, the SCC wouldn't have heard it in the first place. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:45:57 -0600 From: Larry Luzny Subject: CFC Computer System Failure on January 9, 2000 FYI. Below is a letter we have written to Gilles Verner, the Director - Central Processing Site. On Sunday, January 9th, during our gun show, the CFC computerized registration system went down. Area Firearms Officer Wayne F. Hodgins called Miramichi and determined that the system was down for the duration of the day. He then made a public announcement at our show that the system was down. After his announcement, we discussed what the back-up plan was. During these discussions and telephone calls, the system mysteriously came back on line. This point was raised during a meeting with Al Terry, CFO Saskatchewan, and Leo Boisvert, AFO Saskatchewan. I was directed to raise my question with Gilles Verner. We will keep you informed regarding the status of the review of the situation. > January 23, 2000 > > Mr. Gilles Verner > Director - Central Processing Site > Canadian Firearms Centre > P.O. Box 1200 > Miramichi, New Brunswick > E1N 5Z3 > > Re: CFC Computer System Failure on January 9, 2000 > > Dear Mr. Verner: > > I am writing you as a result of my meeting with Al Terry, CFO Saskatchewan, > on January 19th, 2000. A topic of discussion at that meeting was the > failure of the CFC computer registration system on January 9th, 2000. Mr. > Terry had no information to give me about the failure of the computer > registration system. He indicated I should contact you regarding the > failure of the computer registration system. > > As you should be aware, the CFC computer registration system was down on > Sunday, January 9th, 2000. We only noticed the system was down during the > afternoon. Area Firearms Officer Wayne F. Hodgins looked into the matter > and informed me that the computer registration system was down since Sunday > morning, and would be down for the remainder of the day. Mr. Hodgins made > a public announcement at our gun show (39th Annual SGCA Winter Gun & > Collectible Show) to inform the public that the computer registration > system was down for the remainder of the day. > > After approximately five minutes of spirited discussions and telephone > calls, Wayne made a public announcement at our gun show (39th Annual SGCA > Winter Gun & Collectible Show) that the computer registration system was > back up and operating. > > The SGCA would like a report from you regarding what the heck happened! > Please provide us with a report on the operation of the computer > registration system for Sunday, January 9th, 2000. > > We would like to know when the system went down; why it went down; why we > were told it would be down for the rest of the day; why it was back up so > quick. > > It seems very strange to us that an Area Firearms Officer would make a > public announcement that the computer system was down for the remainder of > the day, and then make a public announcement five minutes later the > computer registration system is back up. > > If you have any questions, I can be reached at (306) 543-7599 (home) or > (306) 780-6289 (work). > > Sincerely, > > Larry Luzny > Gun Show Manager > > cc. Al Terry - CFO Saskatchewan > Commissioner - RCMP > Canadian Firearms Digest ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:39:58 -0600 From: "Mark L Horstead" Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #261 I am a member of the OHA, but I do not understand this attitude. Is rape by somebody you like somehow better than rape by somebody you don't? I would applaud my province's government ending all co-operation with the lieberals on this matter. Any inconvenience or irritation to firearms owners that may result will benefit all of us in the long run - by pxxxxxx of the more complacent owners. As well, this transfers the costs directly to the feds, where they will hopefully show up in the public view unless they are dishonestly concealed as I fully expect. NO MORE COMPROMISE OR COLLABORATION. Mark L Horstead ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:40:03 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: GUN REGISTRY COSTS WERE HIDDEN NEWS RELEASE January 24, 2000 For Immediate Release ATI REQUEST - GUN REGISTRY COSTS WERE HIDDEN FROM ALBERTA COURT OF APPEAL "Deceiving the public is bad, but deliberately deceiving the courts must surely have dire consequences." Yorkton - Today, Garry Breitkreuz, MP for Yorkton-Melville and Official Opposition Firearms Critic, released a response to one of his many Access to Information (ATI) requests and provided written proof of what he calls a 'culture of deceit' in the Department of Justice. "I used to call the missives out of the mouths of the Minister and her minions as simply 'misleading' but this evidence clearly indicates a conspiracy to deceive the public and the courts," said Breitkreuz. "It's sad to say, but the Minister of Justice has made political servants out of our public servants." Breitkreuz was referring to an 8-page document titled; "Costs Presentation Options" dated February 5, 1998. Under "Option C: Incremental Approach" it states: "If pressed, confirm actual spending of past three years on C-68. Provide arguments why we can't produce a definite cost forecast." Under another section titled, "Timing Considerations", the department proposed releasing the cost of the gun registry at the same time the government goes public with the Federal Budget. Page 8 of the document states: "A lot of numbers are mentioned during that period and we benefit from the sheer volume of numbers being released (ie [sic] unlikely to attract a lot of attention)." On this same page, the Minister's bureaucrats admit, "During the Alberta reference court proceedings, we argued that we were not in a position to reveal costs. Announcing the costs before a decision may add a bad 'obiter' in their decision." Breitkreuz concluded, "Documents provided to me in response to previous ATI requests prove the Justice Department had been keeping an annual summary of the gun registry costs since 1995. Even though they had these detailed financial documents, they were telling the Alberta Court of Appeal that they couldn't reveal them. Why wouldn't they tell the court? Deceiving the public is bad enough, but deliberately deceiving the Alberta Court of Appeal must surely have dire consequences." Ironically, Breitkreuz obtained these damning documents because of a letter to the editor from Justice Minister Anne McLellan, published in the Toronto Star on July 19, 1999, in which she stated, "user fees will cover the entire cost of the program." Breitkreuz explained, "I had already learned that the government had collected only $2.9 million in user fees during the first six months of the registry's operation (about 1 percent of the total costs of the program so far) and was skeptical of the Minister's claim. So I fired off another ATI request asking the Department of Justice for the documents to prove the Minister was telling the truth." "Confirming my suspicions, the department refused to provide their 'cost recovery plan' which I had asked for, once again citing 'Cabinet > confidences' to keep 61 pages of public documents secret," said Breitkreuz. "This is the third time the Justice Department has used Cabinet secrecy to hide a total of 348 pages of vital information from the prying eyes of the media, the public and Parliament." In June of last year, they refused to give Breitkreuz 172 pages of budget documents that would reveal the true costs of the registry. In September, another 115-page document concerning the impact the gun registration scheme will have on jobs and the economy was withheld from Breitkreuz. "I'm so upset by the Justice Minister's 'culture of deceit' that I have had a Private Members Bill drafted to limit the government's ability to use the Cabinet secrecy excuse." For more information, please call: Yorkton Office: (306) 782-3309 Ottawa Office: (613) 992-4394 e-mail: breitg0@parl.gc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:40:02 -0600 From: Bill Farion Subject: Re: South Astrailian Arms Company Hi, I am looking for links to the South Australian Arms Company. I need a clip for a SPORTCO Model 74 .22 cal rimfire rifle, manufactured by the South Australian Arms Company. Any information you can provide on links or cross references to other manufactures or models which may be similar would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:40:09 -0600 From: John Fowler Subject: ATTENTION: All Ontario gun owners There may be a real threat on the horizon - the opting out of gun legislation by our government. Following is a letter I have sent today to Premier Harris and my MPP, Norm Sterling (a man I really believe is with us on this issue). I urge every Ontario gun owner to write her/his MPP and Premier Harris IMMEDIATELY! Feel free to use as much or as little of my letter as you wish. Remember, we got screwed on the spring bear hunt because we all sat on our hands and didn't show support for our friends. Let's keep our friends friendly! Here's the letter: January 23, 2000 Hon. Norman Sterling, PC Lanark-Carleton Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs 900 Bay Street, Mowat Block, 5th Floor, Toronto, ON M7A 1C2 Dear Norm: It has come to my attention that your (our) government is seriously considering closing the CFO in Orillia, opting out of C-68 and leaving us at the mercy of Ottawa. This action would have very serious consequences for all of the shooting sports in Ontario. Ottawa would be in control of all our licenses, ATT, ranges and purchases. I urge you with all energy possible NOT to do this. I recall, when we were working during the recent election, your explaining to our group here in the riding the importance of maintaining control of our own affairs to the greatest degree possible. This is essential for us to continue a common sense management of our rights, freedoms and responsibilities. The CFO in Ontario has been very cooperative with the shooting organizations and ranges. They have built up considerable credibility and trust with the firearms owners. The organizations, particularly the OHA, have an excellent working relationship with them. We will lose all of that if the government opts out. I have written Premier Harris to this effect and really hope we will have your support in convincing him how critically we heed our government's help to maintain control over our own way of life in Ontario. Sincerely, John T. Fowler ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:40:11 -0600 From: "T. Bryant" Subject: Ranges in Alberta Some time ago someone wrote on the digest that they had compiled a list of shooting ranges in Alberta. Does anyone know where I can get that list? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:40:12 -0600 From: "Don Voth" Subject: Re: [alert] NOTICE re CPFO Question! I do not understand. Is this not short sighted? If the Provencies opt out of sustain C-68 then in the long run the feds will be forced to as well. Could this be a short term loss and a long term gain???? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:40:14 -0600 From: "Calvin Martin, QC" Subject: Treason For those who want to talk about revolution on the net, consider this: Criminal Code S. 46(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada, (a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province; (c) conspires with any person ... to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a); S. 59 (4) Without limiting the generality of the meaning of the expression "sedition intention", every one shall be presumed to have a seditious intention who (a) teaches or advocates, or (b) publishes or circulates any writing that advocates, the use, without the authority of law, of force as a means of accomplishing a governmental change within Canada. Calvin Martin, QC, 600 Church Street, Toronto, Ontario, M4Y 2E7 Tel 416 922-5854 Fax 416 944-0285 Email dvc14@fox.nstn.ca Home Page http://fox.nstn.ca/~dvc14/law.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:40:12 -0600 From: "T. Bryant" Subject: Registration equals confiscation Does anybody know of any country that has introduced firearms registration that did NOT confiscate firearms? An up to date list of those countries that have registered and then confiscated may be instructive too. Couldn't happen in Canada? It IS happening in Canada. Maybe they have a different system than Canada where the firearms are first registered then restricted then prohibited but the end result is the same. By the way the recent prohibited grandfathered is just another way to say deferred confiscation. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #262 **********************************