Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:45:56 -0600 Message-Id: <200003091345.HAA17348@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #291 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, March 9 2000 Volume 03 : Number 291 In this issue: CFC Computer System Failure on January 9, 2000 [none] Re: Editorial: HIDDEN AGENDAS #290 Threat to jobs reprehensible Words of common sense from an admitted gun hater [Fwd: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required:] Anti-gun lobby rides again [Fwd: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required:] [Fwd: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required:] [Fwd: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required:] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 20:44:30 -0700 From: Larry Luzny Subject: CFC Computer System Failure on January 9, 2000 Below is a letter to Richard Mosley, regarding a written response from Micheal Cape respecting my January 23, 2000 letter to Gilles Verner. Micheal Cape's response is presented after the letter to Richard Mosley. March 8, 2000 Richard G. Mosley Project Leader Canadian Firearms Centre 284 Wellington Street Ottawa, ON K1A 0H8 Re: CFC Computer System Failure on January 9, 2000 Dear Mr. Mosley: I am writing in response to Micheal Cape's February 10, 2000, response to my January 23, 2000 letter to Gilles Verner respecting the January 9, 2000, CFC Computer System failure. Mr. Cape's response to my letter concerns me. I have attached a copy of his letter for your review. First off, I am concerned by the lack of ability that the Canadian Firearms Centre has to answer my simple question... what happened? There is no coherent structure in place within the CFC to address a gun show manager's concern over the fickle nature of the operation of the CFC Computer System. On January 9th when the system failed, I talked to Wayne Hodgins, the Area Firearms Officer. He could not answer my question on why the CFC Computer System failed. Wayne Hodgins referred me to Al Terry, the Chief Provincial Firearms Officer. On January 19, 2000, I had a meeting with Al Terry. When I raised this issue, which Al Terry was aware would be raised, he did not want to comment on the CFC Computer System failure and referred me to Gilles Verner. I wrote Gilles Verner about the CFC Computer System failure only to find out he referred my letter to Micheal Cape. Micheal Cape responded to my letter with bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo about the CFC Computer System failure being unique to the abilities of the CFC Computer System operators and that these operators are atypical people. He indicates that these operators do not know from one minute to the next how the system operates, or if it will continue to operate. While he thanks me for writing my letter, he does not answer my question. He signs and dates his letter on February 10, 2000. On February 13, 2000, the CFC Computer System fails again. I do not think it serves anyone's interests to blame everything on the CFC Computer Systems operators. Though they may well in fact be dumb, they are in fact all you have left. Counting you, I have dealt with 5 different federal government bureaucrats trying to get an answer why the CFC Computer System failed. I have asked the question because during the CFC Computer System failure on January 9th, Wayne Hodgins was running around like a chicken with it's head chopped off. When pressed on what we are to do while the CFC Computer System was down, Wayne Hodgins informed me that he was not responsible for registration services at our gun show. Wayne Hodgins said I, as gun show manager, was responsible for registration services. If I am responsible, I definitely want to know what the heck happened to the CFC Computer System, and why it failed! If you cannot answer my simple question, please refer me to someone who can. That person would be bureaucrat Number 6. Good Day! Larry Luzny Gun Show Manager cc. Al Terry - CFO Saskatchewan Commissioner - RCMP Canadian Firearms Digest _______________ February 10, 2000 Mr. Larry Luzny Gun Show Manager Saskatchewan Gun Collector's Association P.O. Box 1334 Regina, Saskatchewan S4P 3B8 Re: CFRS Failure - January 9, 2000 Dear Mr. Luzny, Mr. Gilles Verner, Director of the Central Processing Site, has forwarded to me a copy of your correspondence dated January 23, 2000, concerning the CFRS failure of January 9, 2000. I am advised that CPS experienced technical problems unique to their environment. This atypical behaviour lengthened the resolution time for the problem. The problem was detected and reported at approximately 8:30 AM Eastern Standard time. Due to the complex nature of the problem, it was not possible to determine with accuracy, the length of time that would be required to resume operation. As with the introduction of any major new system, we have had to face some significant implementation challenges. However, the system is steadily improving as we take steps to meet these challenges. We appreciate receiving detailed information that facilitates the ongoing review and improvement of our systems and procedures. Thank you for taking the time to set out your concerns in writing. Yours truly, Micheal Cape Director, Business Operations Directorate Canadian Firearms Centre cc. Gilles Verner, Director, Central Processing Site Moderator comment. Gee Larry how about, "we dunno, the Computer kid was out past his curfew". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 20:18:43 -0500 From: Patrick Dubois Subject: [none] Subject: AR15 Lowers I was surfing the net the other day and came across a couple of AR15 lower receiver forgings. They are not milled or finished in any manner. I know of several people who would love to have one of these forgings on their desk as a paperweight or whatever but... ...what would be the legal standing on these forgings? Can they be bought in Canada? Does anyone know where they could be found in Canada? Neither of sellers on Ebay wishes to sell outside the states for potential legal reasons. Perhaps someone could shed some light on this? Thanks, - -- Patrick Dubois ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Got something to say that you don't want said in public? Ask me for my PGP key! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 20:47:38 -0800 (PST) From: Tiberius Voltaire Subject: Re: Editorial: HIDDEN AGENDAS #290 re Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1, comments Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Of course there was a hidden agenda. The provinces were reacting to the proposed licensing of personal water craft etc. The Firearms stuff is all user pay and low potential profits. But if the Feds usurp the right to impose licenses on private property, and the precedence stands unchallenged the provinces are at risk of loosing other property licensing revenue. I assumed that was obvious. This was not about firearms, it was about ensuring licensing property was limited to things like firearms etc and did not impact on vessels and vehicles. Some might call it turf wars. The legal experts referred to in Digest #290 summed it up perfectly... a no brainer. re: R Coville Subject: Sending a Message, or "Getting the Silent Majority Involved" Pressure to get rid of guns is to a large extent a response to a basic fear felt by non-gun owners towards the presence of firearms in their neighborhood. Find a non-gun owner who is mildly intimidated and tell him your idea..... now take that look and multiply it by everyone like him. Then melt your guns before the new laws they demand are enacted. Another factor to remember... what happens if this idea is as dismal a failure as the "write a letter to your MP" plan? Do we really need to prove to them that the 7,000,000 looks more like a fraction of that who really care? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:08:21 -0500 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Threat to jobs reprehensible PUBLICATION: The StarPhoenix (Saskatoon) DATE: 2000.03.09 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: Forum PAGE: A12 SOURCE: The StarPhoenix Threat to jobs reprehensible It boggles the mind to consider the thinking process that went into having federal officials threaten one of the most depressed areas of Canada with further job losses unless their government toes the line on the increasingly unpopular gun registry. Last August, soon after Bernard Lord's Tories captured the New Brunswick government from the Liberals, a federal official drafted an ominous briefing note. It suggested the 250 jobs used to bribe former Liberal premier Frank McKenna into backing the gun legislation could be taken away if the province strayed. Ottawa's fear is that predominantly rural provinces such as New Brunswick would all join Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba, Nunavut and the Northwest Territories in refusing to use their own resources to participate in the registry. Eight provinces and territories in total have pressed the case against the registry at the Supreme Court -- hardly an active endorsement of the federal rules. Ottawa could be forced to set up a cross-Canada force to track down and prosecute farmers and recreational firearm users who refuse to register their weapons unless these jurisdictions co-operate on enforcing the new law. There is ample reason for the federal authorities to be concerned. Gun owners have until 2001 to get a licence to possess or acquire a firearm, and they have until 2003 to register all firearms. Only a small percentage of firearm owners have so far registered with federal authorities and there is a lively movement promoting civil disobedience among the remainder. Long guns have been in the hands if peaceful Canadians for generations and the government can only estimate how many are out there and who has them. Without the co-operation of local governments and police forces it will be almost impossible to track down more than a handful of people who decide it's better to stow their guns than forever be burdened with the cost and paperwork of the registry. New Brunswick needed the 250 jobs at the central processing site set up for the registry, but it also has a significant rural population that objects to the odious rules. The province accounts for about 4.3 per cent of all the guns in Canada, with perhaps 133,000 firearm owners and as many as 369,000 guns. But the views of those gun owners mean nothing to a federal government that is no longer a government of and for all Canadians. The Liberals have been so successful at winning power in Ottawa that the line between party and state has become blurred. It's apparently become as acceptable to blackmail a province in order to gain support for a Liberal policy as it has become to use taxpayer funds to ensure the perpetuation of Liberal rule. Before the last federal election, the Bloc Quebecois made it clear that it was going to target Prime Minister Jean Chretien's riding. Chretien fought back with the tool the Liberal party has become accustomed to using -- job creation money. The RCMP has since launched a massive investigation into who took that money. Since before Confederation, jobs have been the weapon of choice for federal politicians. It's a weapon that has damaged and divided the country and it is one Canadians are increasingly unwilling to accept. For most of us, it's our jobs that define us. When federal bureaucrats and politicians threaten those jobs or use them to bribe others in order to get their way, it strikes at the very foundation of who we are. The threat against the people of New Brunswick strikes a blow against all Canadians. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:11:48 -0500 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Words of common sense from an admitted gun hater PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Sun DATE: 2000.03.09 SECTION: Editorial/Opinion PAGE: 14 COLUMN: Letter of the Day RE "PERMISSIVENESS the real culprit," by Michael Coren (March 7): I wish to thank Michael Coren for his most recent article on gun control. Those words of common sense from an admitted gun hater are a refreshing breeze in the current spat of fetid letter for and against gun control. It is too bad that those who dislike guns could not adopt an attitude of forbearance toward those that have a diametrically opposed point of view. At the risk of repeating a long and oft repeated statement "when all guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." What the "anti's" have consistently refused to understand or take into account is that most crimes are committed with stolen or illegal weapons. So where does registering firearms come in to control those? It has been stated more than once that if the criminal justice system was to actively prosecute crimes committed with firearms and then judges would actually apply the full letter of the law in sentencing the guilty parties, then maybe there would be fewer crimes committed with firearms. What would have happened if the feds had spent the untold millions so far wasted on the gun registry, had instead been dedicated to the health care system of this country? To me a far better expenditure. Jim Wilson Red Deer Editor's Comment: (And to many others -- but Coren really wasn't talking about gun control) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 06:50:19 -0700 From: Ian Parkinson Subject: [Fwd: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required:] From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" To: "'Firearms Digest'" Subject: LIBERALS SNEAK $46 MILLION MORE INTO GUN REGISTRY Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:32:01 -0500 NEWS RELEASE March 9, 2000 For Immediate Release LIBERALS USED BUDGET HYPE TO SNEAK $46 MILLION MORE INTO GUN REGISTRY! "How many millions need to be wasted before everyone sees the gun registry for the boondoggle it is?" Yorkton - Today, Garry Breitkreuz, Official Opposition Firearms Critic, made everyone aware of the new spending for this year announced in the second set of Supplementary Estimates tabled in the House of Commons on March 2nd - three days after the budget speech. "With all the budget hype, the government was probably hoping no one would notice that they poured another $46.2 million into the Liberal's favourite sinkhole - the gun registry," said Breitkreuz. The Saskatchewan MP pointed to budget documents showing the Liberals have spent $81.2 million on the gun registry since November 4, 1999. "Remember in 1995 when the Justice Minister promised it would only cost $85 million over five years?" asked Breitkreuz. "Well, this Minister just blew that much in the last four months!" "This $81.2 million in 'new appropriations' is added to the original budget allocation for 1999/2000 - estimated to be at least $60 million. "Unfortunately, I have to say estimated because the Justice Minister is still using Cabinet secrecy to hide the true costs from the taxpaying public," said Breitkreuz. Here's what I have been able to uncover so far, thanks mostly to the Access to Information Act: 1. Documents obtained from the Dept. of Justice put the total cost of the registry since 1995 at $216 million as of March 31,1999. 2. Jean Valin, Director of Communications for the Canadian Firearms Centre has stated publicly that the operating costs will "average $60 million a year for the next ten years." 3. Supplementary Estimates tabled in the House of Commons on November 4, 1999 show that $35 million more will be spent on the "Firearms Control Program" this fiscal year [1999/2000]. 4. Supplementary Estimates tabled in the House of Commons on March 2, 2000 added another $46.2 million to the gun registry budget for 1999/2000. 5. Justice has blocked 172 pages of Canadian Firearms Centre budget documents using "Cabinet confidences" [Read: Secrecy]. 6. The Minister's departmental officials are even refusing to provide the "Proposed Budget Allocation" for 1999/2000 stating they don't need to release what they proposed to spend. 7. Justice Minister Anne McLellan stated publicly that "user fees will cover the entire cost" of the registry. During the first year of operation the department has only recovered $6.4 million in user fees and they are refusing to provide documents outlining their "cost recovery plan". 8. The Minister of Justice has also used Cabinet secrecy to withhold a 115-page report from the public on the negative impact the Firearms Act will have on the economy. This will cost the economy billions as businesses cut back and close and thousands are laid off. "It's obvious why Anne McLellan is going to such lengths to hide the truth from the Canadian people," stated Breitkreuz. "The Minister knows that public support for the gun registry drops to under 40% when the costs go over $500 million. Well, the registry budget is now more than $350 million - - 4 times the original budget of $85 million. In the private sector, the manager responsible for such a gross error in budget forecasting and project mismanagement would be fired!" exclaimed Breitkreuz. "In government, the Minister responsible is given even more millions to pour down the drain - - your millions." - -30- For more information, please call: Yorkton Office: (306) 782-3309 Ottawa Office: (613) 992-4394 e-mail: breitg0@parl.gc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:43:20 -0500 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Anti-gun lobby rides again PUBLICATION: The Toronto Star DATE: 2000.03.09 SECTION: NEWS Anti-gun lobby rides again A 6-year-old child living in poverty, among drug addicts, in Mt. Morris, Michigan, shoots another 6-year-old child, using a pistol. An emotionally troubled man in Pittsburgh shoots five people with a pistol, three in a fast food restaurant. Owning a pistol, without a special permit, is already illegal in Canada. No child can legally carry a gun. Yet here is how the emotional reaction of the Canadian anti-gun lobby likely will play itself out: "Let's march into rural Canada and take the shotguns away from those vicious, backward farmers! Let's rush up into the Arctic and take the rifles away from those dangerous Inuit caribou hunters! Let's get out into the wetlands and disarm all those reckless duck hunters! Let's get after those rabid Olympic target shooters and those wild-eyed antique gun collectors! "If only we'd done so sooner that child, and those people in Pittsburgh, would still be alive!" Wouldn't they? Right. But it gets Allan Rock elected. And that's what counts, eh? Thomas Pawlick Windsor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 06:51:36 -0700 From: Ian Parkinson Subject: [Fwd: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required:] From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" To: "'Firearms Digest'" Subject: Why are children shooting each other? Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:42:05 -0500 PUBLICATION: The Toronto Star DATE: 2000.03.09 SECTION: NEWS Why are children shooting each other? Re Flophouse was home (March 2). It finally occurred to me why so many people have jumped on the gun control bandwagon. It is so much easier to blame the loss of an innocent life, like that of 6-year-old Kayla Rolland on an inanimate object (a gun), than it is to face the reality of systemic social problems. One can easily say that without a gun, this never would have happened and be correct, but let's not think about why this same boy lived in a crack house full of loaded weapons. There are some things that a public outcry cannot change: We can scream for tougher laws on gun possession but that would not have saved either of the two innocent victims in this senseless crime. You cannot legislate common sense nor can we point our finger at one thing and say, "that's the problem." Guns have been around for hundreds of years, yet children didn't shoot each other. We should all be asking why. Troy Smillie Hannon, Ont. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 06:53:52 -0700 From: Ian Parkinson Subject: [Fwd: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required:] Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 08:16:40 -0500 From: "Ken Kellar" Subject: Browning two shot semi auto >Subject: Browning Double Auto Shotgun > >Do any of the Subscribers have any information on the Browning Double >Automatic Shotgun (DAS)? >I'm interested in anything about the firearm. >Thanks, J Wood > While I'm not sure which model Mr. Wood is referring to . I know browning made a two shot semi auto shotgun called the Twelvet. It is a recoil operated semi which holds one round in the chamber and a second round directly under the action. The second round loads from a port on the left side of the action. It was belgan made gun. I'm told it was maunfacuted up until the early eigties. Browning could provide more information if reqiured. Cheers Ken Kellar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 06:54:35 -0700 From: Ian Parkinson Subject: [Fwd: BOUNCE cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: Approval required:] From: "Robert Pogson" Subject: Sending a Message, or "Getting the Silent Majority Involved Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 06:26:38 MST R Coville wrote: >Subject: Sending a Message, or "Getting the Silent Majority Involved" >While a FedUp rally is a good idea, it has been done >before, and it will by nature eliminate a lot of >potential involvement, purely because of the cost and >distance for many supporters to get to Ottawa. >So here's a thought. Picture this .... >Every law-abiding firearm owner in Canada, on a >pre-arranged day, at a pre-arranged time, strolls out >his front door and down the main street of his (or >her) town with their favourite long gun >(Non-restricted only, of course), legally in its case, >trigger locks in place, ammunition left at home, >simply to convey to the media and the general public >at large just how big a group we really are In principle there is nothing wrong with going for a walk with a firearm. In fact I did it once. Back in the '60s, I walked a mile and a half down the main drag of Winnipeg to Eaton's store where they had a sporting goods department that installed a scope for $20 while I waited . Then I walked home with my rifle. I had no case, no trigger lock and no ammunition. No one noticed. Sadly, that is another time. Recently there was an incident in B.C. where a man walking innocently with an air rifle with his family was forced to lie on the ground with a shotgun pointed at his head by police. Some citizen had called the police. I fear that thousands of such incidents across Canada could result from this plan and there could be an "accidental" shooting by some nervous or clumsy police officer. Last year, in New York City, four police officers fired 41 rounds of 9mm at a man they stopped to talk with on his doorstep. When he pulled out his wallet, they shot him reflexively thinking it was a handgun. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #291 **********************************