Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:25:46 -0600 Message-Id: <200003130225.UAA16000@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #297 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, March 12 2000 Volume 03 : Number 297 In this issue: Re: AMA gun control poll! Re: AMA gun control poll! what world would you like to live in? Re: Safety course handbook re: raising visibility [Fwd: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #295] [Fwd: Reply to Professor Al Dorans] Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #296 Re: National Post letter Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #295 Concelled and Carry Another letter raising visibility Quebec delays for ATT KUSTOMS SEARCH Kellermann studies... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:14:39 -0600 (CST) From: Will Christie Subject: Re: AMA gun control poll! On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, The Gayders wrote: Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca > Subject: Need help in gun control poll! > > Go to and vote in their quick poll at the right > hand side of the screen. Pass this on to your friends. Add on to that, you should give them feedback and take them to task for using the discredited Kellerman study as basis for their argument. - -- Will Christie "The scientific theory I like Will_Christie@UManitoba.ca best is that the rings of Instructional Software Coordinator Saturn are composed entirely University of Manitoba of lost airline luggage." 628 Engineering --Mark Russell 474-9475 ICQ: 37605272 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:50:27 From: mike Subject: Re: AMA gun control poll! for such biased questions I'm suprised at the results, the anti's won't be quoting this poll. At 20:23 11/03/00 -0800, The Gayders wrote: >Subject: Need help in gun control poll! > >Go to and vote in their quick poll at the right >hand side of the screen. Pass this on to your friends. > >This is a AMA poll and the anti-gunners like to quote their >results. Let's win this one. > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 12:49:45 -0600 From: Kelly and Lindsay Garner Subject: what world would you like to live in? Some say that we do not have the right to protect ourselves that is the job of the police. But who then will protect us from the police? There seems to be a lack of accountability the farther up the ladder in government. At one time I respected our Prime Minister, promising in his "Red Book" to ax, kill ect the GST, but on national news the P.M. said he never made such a statement (even though it is all on tape). Either I am really stupid, or he is a liar and a fraud. Governments can lose billions and no heads will ever roll, the saga continues. Look at the New York Police department plugging a man for pulling out his wallet (47 shots hit), getting off scott free. Any citizen that did the same would be thrown in the slammer for murder, manslaughter or criminal negligence causing death. Oh but if you say it can't happen here just pray that you do not get on the bad side of the Saskatoon Police Department or you may be found frozen on the outskirts of town. I would have more respect for people who admit their mistakes (losing a billion dollars) than for someone that denies or tries to hide errors (even if it only $250,000 loss). Politicians ruined Athens and the Roman Empire and now they are working on us. What happened to common sense and openness, does it fade as soon as you are elected or are they simply corrupted? Maybe there needs to be a fundamental change in our political system, we the people voting on policies directly (in this day and age of communication would not be that difficult). Would you vote to allow an ambassador to run up a $20,000 clothing allowance or to fund a erotic (porn) show in paris, when our infrastructures are decaying? WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW WHERE ALL YOUR MONEY IS SPENT? HOW MANY AND HOW MUCH TAXES BLEED YOUR INCOME? The firearm issue is just a chunk of the huge iceberg, there is much, much more. It is time that we the people start to assert our selves and take back the respect our overseers fail to give. If not maybe one of you will be taken for a ride in the middle of winter by the masters. Absolute power corrupts, Absolutely. Just venting, K Garner ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:43:32 From: mike Subject: Re: Safety course handbook The safety course is now two parts Restricted and non Restricted two manuals and two exams. It is essentially the same material split into two courses.We are instructing from the Oct 98 handbooks. If one knew the information presented in the 1994 text they would have little problem with either of the new courses. mike At 20:06 11/03/00 -0700, you wrote: > Someone I know will have to take the course or write the test.What he >= >need's to know is the (canadian firearms safety course student's = >handbook) dated JANUARY 1994.the appropriate manual for course challenge >= >or is there somthing newer or better. >perhaps someone could addvise=20 >Thanks in advance >ED. > > >PS >A grate man once said. It matters not where a man dies as long as it's = >for FREEDOM. > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:46:20 -0700 From: Barry Snow Subject: re: raising visibility >knives are a tool that can be used for cutting food etc., and that guns only >serve >to kill things. What if we argued instead, that baseball bats and hockey >sticks are used more often for violence than firearms. After all, they I have used a gun as a tool in a variety of instance. I have used a .243 to put a hole in a steel plate and a piece of rubber belting so that I could wire them together. This same tool will nicely remove a Master lock to which you have lost the key. Some stubborn old cement that would not yield to 8 hours of hammer and chisel and small hand held air hammer and electric cement drill gave up quite nicely to 5 130 grain Silvertip 270. 1 1/2 inch pipe through the wall in 15 minutes. Ever try to align a hole in the ceiling with a hole in roof for a chimney installation? 22 long rifle is fine. Out here in my remote location, earmuffs and SKS with a level on it worked for me. Sometimes I find it necessary to euthanize a bovine critter or protect same species from any number of possible predators, mostly coyote. Its tough to shoot an old dog but all my dogs were terrified of the vet so which is better? Gophers go without saying but think the PFCS should have a category for gopher shooting from a vehicle. The most preferred form of the sport or job as your case may be. You city dwellers with treed river valleys can thank someone who shot a few beaver. Sometimes a killing tool but no less a tool. And so what if they were only made to kill? As long as they are not used for anything else that is already prohibited by law why make up a bogus punishment for ownership of some steel and wood and plastic? Someone once said that firearms could not be musical instruments. I am slowly collecting a variety of sizes of crusher liners which I will hang on chains to make "SKS Chimes". Maybe 10 or twelve notes will produce a couple of Christmas Carols. Something more melodious than the artillery in Tchaicovsky's 1812 Overture. To your other point about the 4 to 1 ratio. I haven't read the studies but they probably include all people in any public place where the police have fatally wounded someone waving a weapon. I would imagine there is a fair bit of subjectivity involved in a non-body count. I do know of a couple of instances of protection from wildlife. One against a charging grizzly about 25 years ago. This required a great deal time after the attack, explaining and showing and escorting wildlife officers back to the scene. Another case is a fellow who had to shoot a charging bull moose in season. The defender of his own life had a tag. Most of these types of defense of life do not go beyond the immediate friends and family. just my two kernels of wheat worth. Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 15:05:12 -0800 From: Julie McNeice Subject: [Fwd: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #295] Re: The fact that guns save 40 lives in Canada for every one that they take. Can anyone actually back this up ??? I know 4 people who died from gun shots, 2 suicides, 1 cop, and 1 murder. I should know at least 40 to 160 who saved their lives by aiming a gun at a bad guy, but do not know any? Am I missing something? From: Tiberius Voltaire Subject: [Fwd: Reply to Professor Al Dorans] This reply to my email simply highlights the ignorance of the anti-gun crowd. If indeed this person did have relatives who died in the Holocaust, then she certainly has not learned much from this dreadful event in history. Remember, guns protect the freedom all of us enjoy. How soon we forget the past history. Charles Dillabough ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 17:28:18 -0600 From: "Mike Bonner" Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #296 Do not challenge the Firearms Safety Course with an old manual. There are new Safety Course manuals, one for non-restricted and another for restricted. Get a new one for whatever course you want to take, as all the FAC stuff in the old ones is out of date. New videos too. Mike, # 47. By the way, someone unsubscribe me for 4 weeks as I will be away with that 12 ga pump snubbie + SSG shells. Can't seem to unsub via normal channels. Mike Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 17:08:50 -0800 From: Peter Cronhelm Subject: Re: National Post letter > Gun control folly > > George Penfold > National Post > After reading the March 6 article by Janice Tibbetts and Jim Bronskill > titled Gun-Control Stand Could Cost New Brunswick Registry Centre, one must > wonder at the depths to which our so-called federal government will sink. > Even our politically appointed police chiefs admit it will do little to > deter crime, which for most Canadians is what it is supposed to be all > about. > The feds mention that employment will grow at the centre, yet no mention is > made of the fact that once registration is completed only a small handful of > people will be required, as has been the case for the restricted firearm > registry for the past 65 years. There is no doubt this vote-mongering > legislation has cost the jobs of more honest hard-working Canadians then it > will ever create. > If the government really wanted to do some good, it could put these > computers to work, linking all the hospitals in this country to track organ > availability for urgently needed transplants to save lives. > George Penfold, Nepean, Ont ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:09:33 -0800 From: Bill Farion Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #295 > > > the fact that guns save 40 lives in Canada for > > every one that they take. > > Can anyone actually back this up ??? Hi; Yes, 3 times. First one was in Saskatchewan when a bear would not leave us or our burned garbage alone. Not really serious. Second one was serious. I got up and nuked a grizzley in our camp 20 min before the cook got up. I was armed and got her at about 7 yards. The cook, a summer student would not have had a chance. The next one was when a bear threatened to come up into a tree stand after me! I knew of quite a few other incidents every year when I was out doing work as a geologist and forester. Cheers Bill (;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:18:26 -0400 From: "Byting Mouse Computer Services" Subject: Concelled and Carry I was recently in a High School waiting for a teacher when I started = browsing through a display which gave information on subjects ranging = from how to do your resume to choosing a career. One pamphlet was = titled Sexual Violence: facts for young women, Why women are such easy = victims of Sexual Assault. This particular pamphlet retained my = attention due to the first line, and I quote " A man's physical = strength makes it almost impossible for an unarmed, untrained woman to = defend her self against a physical assault by a man. Now why would most women's group be in the anti-gun camp? If I refer = back to the above statement it is unlikely that a women will be able to = resist a man's strength and therefore the woman in most cases will be = the unwilling victim. Training is great but it takes years of practice = to put up a good fight. Caring a pistol on the other hand can turn = things around. This would also take training and time but could be = mastered in a reasonable time frame. Personally I know of two women who = would not be here today if a gun would not have been present when their = ex came to assault them. I believe that we must put more emphasis in getting this segment of the = population on our side. In the same way the anti-gun lobby is present = to take advantage of every shooting we should be there to present our = points when there is a person assaulted, a home invasion or any other = situation where a gun could have turned the tide in the victim's favor. = We should expose the government's rule making this impossible at the = present time. A supreme court challenge for a person that was not in a = position to defend himself during a home invasion would be more credible = to the general public than what was recently presented. If we are to win this we must take the offensive, we cannot win by = playing defense all the time. Joseph Robichaud ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:08:28 -0500 From: "John Evers" Subject: Another letter I managed to get another letter published!! This one was on behalf of = the East Elgin Sportsmen's Association of which I have the great = pleasure (sometimes) of being President. It was a response to last = Sundays editorial concerning the shooting in Flint Michigan of a six = year old girl by a six year old crack house resident. Somehow the = London Free Press decided that the way to prevent such tragedies from = ever happening would be to separate boys from guns. Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Chock another one up for the good guys here is the letter: =20 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------- Guns editorial feeds anti-firearm rhetoric=20 Regarding the editorial, Child murderers (March 5), we, the directors = of the East Elgin Sportsmen's Association, would like to express our = disagreement with your statement that "separating guns from boys is a = worthwhile pursuit."=20 We at EESA have been training area youths (both boys and girls, aged 8 = to 18) in the art and science of firearms for more than 45 years. Our = junior rifle program has grown to one of the strongest in Canada. Our = young shooters have competed with distinction in both the=20 Ontario and Canada Games, producing several medallists over these = years.=20 Your statement does nothing but feed the emotionally driven = anti-firearm rhetoric that stems from a lack of knowledge of this topic. = The London Free Press and its readership would be well-served to look at = both sides of this issue before you make such blanket statements. We = believe that what we are doing is both right and good, and we trust, = given the chance, that you will come to this realization.=20 JOHN EVERS=20 board of directors of the East Elgin Sportsmen's Association=20 Aylmer=20 =20 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:32:40 -0500 From: "John Evers" Subject: raising visibility re:At 05:30 11/03/00 -0800, you wrote: >> the fact that guns save 40 lives in Canada for=20 >> every one that they take.=20 > >Can anyone actually back this up ??? > >Am I missing something? >__________________________________________________ Yes I am afraid that you are missing something that is very important. = One cannot just stack up incidents of firearms overtly saving lives = against lives that have been lost do to firearm violence. One must take = note that many instances of lives being saved occur with not only a shot = being fired but with neither side being aware of the fact that a life = has been saved. I put to you the case where a would be attacker decides = not to "give it a try" on the off chance that they will end up on the = losing end of the argument. This is just one case that would explain = such discrepancies of course but it should give you the general idea. =20 jevers@axiom.on.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:27:25 -0500 From: Jhogue Subject: Quebec delays for ATT Current state of affairs - general information. In October, I applied for an Authorization to Transport restricted firearms to the gun club I have been going to for the last five years. Sort of a renewal, but before it was a different sort of permit. It took 4 months to get the ATT. The previous year, the delay was about 2 months. I became a member of a second club in March. I applied for an ATT for that club - in Quebec, the ATT is good only for one specific club. This time the delay was 3 weeks. The ATT is actually two photocopies on plain white paper, not colored, no embossing or watermark. There is an authorization number and a signature in blue ink on the first page. I sure hope the Surete du Quebec range inspector will recognize the signature, because apart from that, it looks ridiculously easy to counterfeit. The old style of permit did look more "official". Cost-cutting maybe ? - ---------- In both instances, I was questioned about handguns which were registered a long time ago. The registration data showed magazine capacities in excess of 10 rounds. I was asked to fax a letter confirming I had arranged for the magazine capacities to be brought down to the legal requirements. As a bonus, I got a revision of the registrtion certificates - still the old style - with the offending high capacity removed. - ----------- Side note: Miramichi shutdown ? not believable from the beginning I find it very unlikely that anyone in authority would have seriously considered transferring the CFC Miramichi jobs to a friendlier province (BC or Quebec). It is highly doubtful that data entry clerks would have moved - at great relocation expense at that. This would have left the CFC having to train a whole new set of clerks. This at the time when there is not even a snowball's chance in a hot place to meet the deadlines and when expenditures have already exploded out of control. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 17:58:32 -0800 (PST) From: Joe B Subject: KUSTOMS SEARCH Geez, whats' with Kustoms. Those revenuers are really starting to peev me off. I think they're just trying to hassle gun owners. Now they say they can search your car just because their computer says you are a "random" search. Does anybody know about this? Any lawyers out there? I thought they needed "reasonable grounds". Also, can the public ask Kustoms to provide written reasons why they searched your car? I'd be interested in knowing the real reason. Anyone else been "UNREASONABLY SEARCHED" lately? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:58:21 -0500 From: Patrick Dubois Subject: Kellermann studies... Does anyone know if the Kellermann studies are available online? Someone brought them up in an argument and I'd like to read them. I know they're trash but I'd like to read them none the less so that I might be able to know exactly *why* they're trash... Thanks in advance. - -- Patrick Dubois ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Got something to say that you don't want said in public? Ask me for my PGP key! ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #297 **********************************