From - Mon Nov 20 09:18:49 2000 Received: from broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (majordomo@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [198.169.128.1]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28095; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 09:48:01 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10199; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 08:12:02 -0600 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 08:12:02 -0600 Message-Id: <200011181412.IAA10199@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: majordomo set sender to owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca using -f From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #533 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 37247a250001bb20 Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, November 18 2000 Volume 03 : Number 533 In this issue: Questions I wouldn't be a bit surprised Illegal smelting operation NFA Exposes Liberal Secret Agenda News Release On Bigots We Still Huddle In Kanuckistan Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #532 Musings Alliance DNA-sample-upon-arrest idea ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:38:56 -0700 From: awp@datanet.ab.ca Subject: Questions Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 Subject: Question asked on CPAC political phone in program. Friday evening 11/17/00 a thirteen year old girl phoned in and asked " If I do something wrong I get punished" "How come when the Prime Minister does wrong he does not get punished?" She did not receive an answer. How typical of our system. Al " FREEDOM " For those who Fought, Bled and Died For It " FREEDOM " has a FLAVOR THE PROTECTED will Never Know or Savor. Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:54:40 -0700 From: "ed tudor" Subject: I wouldn't be a bit surprised I wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear evidently that Creitian may know more of the Dark-sideThan we already know. With his firends in the law, banking and justice business. I'm sure sure he would know the inn's & outs of the money laundering business. Not only the hotel loan business but poss'ibly mixed up with Mulroney and the Airbus, affair and share'ing law'suit million's of taxpay'ers $$$$$$$$$$ It sure got setteled quick and never heard of. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:31:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jaeger Subject: Illegal smelting operation Gov't of Alberta news release Nov 17,2000 Illegal smelting operation nets fine and creative sentence David Hall of Edmonton was sentenced to a $500 fine and a creative sentence in provincial court on October 23, 2000, after pleading guilty to a charge under regulations to Alberta's Environmental Protection and Enhancement Act. The charge was related to venting fugitive emissions, from an illegal smelting operation, from a building located at 10343-107 Street, Edmonton. Lead bullets were created from spent shot, obtained from local firing ranges. Samples taken from the operation confirmed the presence of high concentrations of lead, copper, iron, zinc and other heavy metals. In addition to the $500 fine, the creative sentence orders that Mr. Hall present the text for an article in the Alberta Game Warden magazine that will detail the human health consequences of exposure to lead-contaminated fumes. The creative sentence also requires Mr. Hall to do 200 hours of community service and to pay $192.50 to help pay for analytical testing carried out by government. ===== Cynic - One who sees things as they are, and not as they ought to be. Hence the custom of the Scythians of putting out the eyes of a cynic to improve their vision. Ambrose Pierce, " The Devil's Dictionary ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 06:59:27 -0700 From: "Jim Hinter" Subject: NFA Exposes Liberal Secret Agenda "Jean Chretien has talked a lot lately about hidden agendas during this election campaign," stated Jim Hinter, National President of Canada's 120,000 Member strong National Firearms Association. "Maybe the Prime Minister is right. Here is one of Chretien's hidden agendas that we have uncovered," Hinter continued. "The Liberals are secretly changing the classification on many popular airguns - reclassifying them as firearms or prohibited firearms," Hinter charged. "This move, done in secret, forces owners of popular air rifles and = pistols to apply for - and receive - firearm licences, or else become criminals = on January 1 2001," Hinter stated. "This affects over a million Canadians along with thousands of Canadian businesses," Hinter stated. "People who already own air pistols, like the Crosman 357 Magnum, re-classified as a "restricted firearm" or "prohibited firearm" have = already been criminalized," Hinter stated. "The real question for Jean Chretien is a simple one; When exactly Sir, = were you planning to spring this little surprise on Canadians?" asked Hinter. "The Canadian Firearms Centre is already hopelessly behind in getting licences into the hands of Canadians right now," stated Hinter. "This = latest move ensures that on New Years Day 2001, millions of Canadians will wake = up as 'paper crime criminals'" said Hinter. - -30- National Firearms Association For More Information: (403) 640-1110 AIRGUN BACKGROUNDER How did thousands of airgun owners suddenly become criminals -- and = eligible for up to five years in prison? This situation all started with the federal Liberal's new and very complicated firearms control laws, which came into force on 01 Dec 1998. Those laws state to acquire a "firearm", a Canadian must register that "firearm" as it is acquired, and must be the "holder" of a licence at = the time of getting it. Then the law states if the "firearm" has a muzzle velocity under 152.4 meters per second (500 feet per second), which covers most airguns, then = the buyer doesn't have to have a licence, and the "firearm" doesn't have to = be registered -- because it is not a "firearm" -- except under certain circumstances. So -- from 01 Dec 1998 until today, Canadians have been acquiring = airguns with no paper work or licence required. That has now ended. A manufacturer decided to start manufacturing lightweight pellets for airguns. Using those pellets, many airguns can shoot pellets at over = 152.4 mps (500 fps), so they are full "firearms", requiring licences and registration. And that change goes backwards in time! Almost everyone acquired an airgun at any time between 01 Dec 1998 and today -- without a licence, or without registering it -- is now a = criminal, for violating Criminal Code section 91(1). It gets worse. Almost every airgun is a "firearm", and some of them are "handguns". Those that are "handguns" are also either "restricted = firearms" or "prohibited firearms". The firearms control system requires all "handguns" to be registered. It says if the "handgun" has a muzzle velocity under 152.4 meters per = second (500 feet per second), like most airguns, it doesn't have to be = registered, and no licence is required by a buyer. Almost every person who is now in possession of a "handgun" airgun that = can shoot a pellet at over 153.4 mps (500 fps) -- regardless of the date he = or she got it -- is now in possession of either an unregistered "restricted firearm" or an unregistered "prohibited firearm", and is violating CC s. 91(2)(a) and (b). The maximum sentence is up to 5 years in prison. The decision by a manufacturer to produce a new product has = retroactively criminalized hundreds of thousands of Canadians. This move also will = affect hundreds of Canadian businesses - who are currently selling air rifles = or pistols. Those businesses are now forced to be licenced and all of = their staff handling airgun sales must be licenced. This represents a huge tax = on those businesses. National Firearms Association: Phone (403) 640-1110 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:04:55 -0600 From: Joe Gingrich Subject: News Release For your information please read how a modern dictatorship begins to take shape. Joe NEWS RELEASE November 17, 2000 For Immediate Release LIBERAL FIREARM REGISTRY RULES "AIRGUNS" ARE NOW FIREARMS BILL C-68 WILL MAKE MOST PELLET GUN OWNERS CRIMINALS ON JANUARY 1ST "The Liberals are more concerned about registering pellet guns than getting tough on criminal use of firearms." Yorkton – Today, Garry Breitkreuz, MP and Canadian Alliance Candidate for Yorkton-Melville, blew the lid off an issue the Liberals were trying to keep secret until after November 27th. RCMP sources have confirmed that the Canadian Firearms Registry has ruled that millions of the most popular models of airguns are now firearms. "For months now, the Liberals have been stonewalling investigators from the Information Commissioner’s office on one of my requests to the gun registry. Finally, we know the reason why," declared Breitkreuz. "Instead of issuing a public warning of the Registry’s ruling to all airgun owners that they need to obtain a firearms licence by the end of this year or face up to five years in jail, the Liberals have been keeping this explosive information a secret until after the election. As if Canadians needed any more proof that the Liberal gun registry has anything to with controlling the criminal use of firearms, now this fiasco." Breitkreuz calls his revelation "explosive" because the Liberal gun registry’s decision now places many innocent Canadians - unknowingly – in violation of the Criminal Code of Canada and under the threat of long prison terms. The Liberal decision affects thousands of businesses that are now criminals for selling airguns without a firearm dealer's licence. The Liberal decision affects more than a million law abiding airgun owners (including every teenager with a pellet gun) who will be criminals unless they have a firearms licence in their possession by the end of this year. The Liberal decision affects millions of airguns that are now firearms according to Bill C-68 and are going to have to be registered by the end of 2002. The Liberal decision has also banned tens of thousands of airguns that will have to be confiscated by police. "If the Liberals are consistent with their previous dictatorial decrees, they will also refuse to pay compensation for seizing and destroying this legally acquired property," explained Breitkreuz. ." Please see the attached preliminary list of 13 makes and models of airguns the Canadian Firearms Registry has changed from non-firearms to firearms. "This is just the tip of the airgun iceberg!" exclaimed Breitkreuz. "We are still checking dozens of other airgun makes and models." The reason for the Liberal ruling is because of airgun muzzle velocity tests, conducted by the RCMP, with a new type of laser pellet being sold under the brand names: Lazerhawk, Prometheus, and Beeman. The Saskatchewan MP explained, "RCMP muzzle velocity tests with a new type of laser pellets confirm that any airgun with a current muzzle velocity of over 400 feet-per-second(fps) will likely exceed the 500 fps airgun exemption in section 84(1)(3)(d) of the Criminal Code. See the attached summary of the impact this Liberal legislative legacy will have on thousands of airgun dealers and more than a million airgun owners. "This one change will easily push the Bill C-68 implementation costs from the current $585 million to well over the billion dollar mark before the gun registration deadline of January 1, 2003. The registry already has a backlog of more than a million licence applications to process before the end of the year. What are they going to do when all the airgun owners start filing applications?" asked Breitkreuz. "In 1995, during the C-68 debates, we warned the Liberals that their poorly drafted bill was going to lead to chaos," reminded Breitkreuz. "Firearms experts told the Liberals to use ‘muzzle energy’ instead of ‘muzzle velocity’ to define firearms in the legislation, but of course Chretien and his crew wouldn’t listen to common sense. This is just one more reason why Bill C-68 has to be scrapped, killed and abolished. I hope the millions of airgun owners out there heed this warning." -30- AIRGUN DEALERS AND OWNERS BEWARE Here’s a preliminary list of airguns the Canadian Firearm Registry has changed from non-firearms to firearms in their Firearms Reference Tables (FRT): Crosman 357 mag - Prohibited Firearm - FRT# 41822-1 (now prohibited because of barrel length) Webley Hurricane - Restricted Firearm - FRT# 43386-1 (muzzle velocity: 640fps) Webley Tempest - Restricted Firearm - FRT# 43382-1 (muzzle velocity: 560 fps) Beeman Model p1 - Restricted Firearm - FRT# 17122-2 (muzzle velocity: 580 fps) Crosman Model 1740 - Restricted Firearm - FRT# 89275-1 (muzzle velocity: 600fps) Crosman 1008 - Restricted Firearm - FRT# 41826-1 Crosman 1377c - Restricted Firearm - FRT# 90615-1 Crosman Model 1760 - Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 89255 (muzzle velocity: 750fps) Crosman Model 1077 - Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 41814-1 Crosman 760 - Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 41799-1 Crosman Powermaster - Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 72071-1 Diana Model 20 - Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 38510-1 Marksman Lazerhawk - Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 79371-4 NOTE: These reclassified airguns and pellet rifles are very common and are sold in 400 Canadian Tire Stores, 120 Wal-Mart stores, 300 Home Hardware Stores, 300 Federated Co-op stores and most True Value Hardware stores as well as thousands of other smaller businesses and shops across Canada. IF YOU SELL AIRGUNS If your business is in possession of ANY airgun that the Canadian Firearm Registry has reclassified as a firearm and you do not have a licence to sell firearms (and most airgun dealers do not), your business is criminalized. If you do not have your airguns displayed or stored in accordance with the display and storage provisions of Bill C-68, your business is criminalized. If you sell any of these reclassified airguns to anyone without a valid Firearms Acquisition Certificate or Possession and Acquisition Licence your business is criminalized. If you sell any of these reclassified airguns without the firearm being registered with the Canadian Firearms Registry and/or without the transfer of ownership being approved by the Canadian Firearms Registry, your business is criminalized. Finally, all the staff in your store must also have a valid Firearms Acquisition Certificate or Possession and Acquisition Licence in order to handle these reclassified airguns in your store. IF YOU OWN A RESTRICTED OR PROHIBITED AIRGUN If an individual or business is in possession of any airgun that is a handgun that the Canadian Firearms Registry has reclassified as a firearm - depending on the barrel length - it is now either a restricted or a prohibited firearm (See the above list for examples). If the barrel length is under 105 mm (4 inches), your airgun-handgun it is ‘prohibited’ (like the Crosman 357 mag listed above). If the barrel length is over 105 mm then your airgun-handgun is ‘a restricted’ firearm. All these reclassified airgun-handguns must now be registered immediately or you will be in unauthorized possession of a firearm. If you do not have a firearms licence authorizing you to own a restricted and/or prohibited airgun-handgun, you will be in violation of Criminal Code section 91(1)(b) and subject to imprisonment for up to five years or in violation of section 92(1)(b) and subject to imprisonment for up to ten years. All these newly reclassified airgun-handguns in your possession must now be stored just the same as any other handgun in accordance with the storage laws and regulations – if you do not you will be criminalized. If you wish to transport your airgun-handgun out of your house you must now apply to the Chief Firearms Office in your province for an Authorization to Transport and you will only be authorized to transport your airgun-handgun to a shooting range approved by the CFO. If you own a reclassified airgun-handgun with a four-inch barrel or less, it is now prohibited. Due to another bit of poor draftsmanship in Bill C-68, you are no longer eligible to be ‘grandfathered’ because you didn’t register your airgun before February 14, 1995, your now prohibited airgun will be confiscated by police and destroyed - (likely without compensation from the Liberal government. IF YOU OWN A NON-RESTRICTED AIRGUN OR PELLET RIFLE If you own a reclassified airgun or pellet rifle it is a non-restricted firearm (See the above list for examples) you will need to be in possession of either a valid Firearms Acquisition Certificate, a Possession Only Licence or a Possession and Acquisition Licence before December 31, 2000 or you will be in unathorized possession of a firearm and subject to the penalties noted above. You will also be required to register your airgun or pellet rifle before January 1, 2003. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 00:16:39 -0700 From: Rick Lowe Subject: On Bigots Mark L Horstead quoted Elanor Caplan > "Their supporters are Holocaust deniers, prominent bigots and > racists....That kind of opinion - that anti-immigrant, racist, bigoted > opinion - is not something that the Liberal party would tolerate and it says > a lot about Stockwell Day and his supporters.'' Of course, the Eastern press was, as usual, asleep at the switch. While she was ranting about Doug Christie (and while The Cretin was defending her), none of them bothered to ask either of these two Lie-berals if the fact that Ernst Zundel once ran for LEADER of the Lie-beral party also made them Holocaust deniers, bigots, and racists. There are some whackos in the Alliance, but the Liberals have their fare share as well - and their past record isn't exactly spotless either. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 01:08:18 -0800 From: NCS BC Subject: We Still Huddle In Kanuckistan Why it is such a big surprise to so many that air gun owners are now the target of the NEW WORLD ORDERS "Kanuckistan" minions in Ottakabol, is a real mystery to me. Many of us warned "all of you many years" ago that this was in the works. Now heed this people. Given that the archery sport has evolved to the point now. That an experienced, proficient archer can fire a bow almost a fast a semi auto firearm. Given that arrows are now capable of carrying heads that are explosive [which BTW can blow a hole through the heaviest of body armor], or fire any combination of a variety of lethal arrowheads, guess who's next on the "Kanuckistan Hit Parade". Help us carry the message to the people here folks, before it is to late....... Contact NCS BC now............ > The Truth Is Out There ! > Research, Expose & > Take it to the "People". > > Rod Bugaresti > > > Tell me and I may Forget > Show me and I may Remember > Involve Me And I Will Understand ! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:50:05 -0700 From: "ed tudor" Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #532 Re airgun muzzle velocity & energy level @ 152.4 meters per second should be based on the (standerd lead shot guage for.22 or .177caliber) irreguardless of the pellet weight of the lighter pellet's velocity should be considered AND NOTHING ELSE... I could get 900 fps From a styerofome slug at the muzzle on a chronograph with little more energy than a puff of warm air ! ED ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:43:01 -0700 From: "Peter Kearns" Subject: Musings First: The "large lout" mentioned by me in the published letter in the Edmonton Journal was indeed Bob Lickacz, (suspected by some.) Mr. Lickacz was carrying his sign which said diplomatically "Jean Chretien is a liar!" According to Bob he was harangued by an Annie supporter and called a "bigot" racist," "homophobe," etc.. I am really surprised that Bob didn't realise he was being confronted by the basic tenet of liberal philosophy. What is a racist, bigot or homophobe? Somebody who disagrees with Cretin's liberal policy, that's who! Have you noticed that Cretin keeps harping about Alliance "secret agenda's?" According to him Alliance has hidden or secret agenda's for just about anything. Notice how he always accuses them of being "extremists?" No doubt he would call them "criminals," but (apparently) he cornered that title himself.... I understand that Bob Lickacz was nominated as Alberta President of the NFA. If he accepts the nomination, I will be happy to "go provincial" and serve with "the large lout." One last thing. I examined the CILA sign package at a local firearms emporium, and just have to say WOW! If I didn't have about seven hundred NFA signs to put up, I would have a second look at the CILA ones. Tomorrow, we will turn the neighbourhood "green" (NFA "Remember the Firearms Act when you vote!" signs) around Anne McLellan's campaign headquarters. Annie's people made the error of removing some of our signs that they found offensive, so as promised "ten for every one you stole." To my fellow sign planters. Please make an effort to bathe and appear neatly turned out, as the media will be paying us a visit. (apparently they want to see "the greening" of Annie's campaign office! (Don't forget to comb your hair! (Those who still have hair,) that is, and please wear your Sunday dentures too.) That should dispel the "image" of toothless redneck's who support the NFA! One last thing on a humourous note. Annie attended an all candidate meeting at a local high school. It was widely reported in our local media that a thirteen year old kid denounced her and the Firearms Act, and apparently did it so well that Annie was speechless! I'm gonna miss old lardass when she "retires" from public life! (Maybe she will become an innkeeper if Jean can get her a loan!) Peter Simon says: You can't be an MP if you are convicted of a criminal offence.... Maybe we won't have to wait for Jean to retire after all.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 00:11:47 -0700 From: Rick Lowe Subject: Alliance DNA-sample-upon-arrest idea Don McPhail said: > Molecular genetics has all kinds of promise for great > things, but being on the prosecutorial end of criminal > justice isn't one of them. Imagine the travelling > geneticist "expert witness" with a poorly-founded "profile" > of a particular gene sequence purportedly associated with a These would be the same as the travelling fingerprint expert that presently gives evidence in criminal cases, I guess? They don't exist. And it is highly unlikely that the courts would accept DNA evidence as being truly unique if it came to an issue of battling geneticists giving evidence. We're getting a little ahead of ourselves here, but I expect that several sites would be designated - providing the Crown could establish that DNA examinations could have the same degree of certainty that fingerprint analysis has as far as uniqueness goes. The fact that DNA evidence is submitted may not even be taken as truly definitive for quite some time yet - I expect we will see giant strides in this area within the next few years. It may be in the same category as determining that the assailant was or wasn't a secretor, etc and so forth. In other words, it may not be in and of itself proof that the accused is (or isn't - the results are available to defense counsel as well) guilty, but simply one more piece of evidence that adds to the burden of proof. Why take fingerprints/photographs/DNA at the time of charging rather than only after conviction? Simple: pretty hard to compare fingerprints to evidence at a scene when you can't have their fingerprints until AFTER the trial. Also pretty hard to put their picture in a photo lineup when you can't take it until AFTER the trial. It's worth noting that, if an accused isn't convicted, they can (and should) require that their fingerprints and photographs be destroyed. I expect the same would apply to DNA evidence. > Does anyone remember the "fiber science evidence" that helped railroad > Guy-Paul Morin I remember that there was a great deal of police negligence and misconduct in the Morin trial - that does not mean that criminalistics is voodoo or untrustworthy. Saying that the Morin trial is a good reason why we should severely curtail police use of criminalistics is identical to that the murders committed by Lepine are a good reason why we need C-68. Go after the abusers,not the legitimate users. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #533 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:IParkinson@ccinet.ab.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v03.n198 end (198 is the digest issue number and 03 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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