From: Mon 19:09 Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #561To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, December 18 2000 Volume 03 : Number 561 In this issue: 9mm mags. Leasing of firearma Another spinc-doctoring exercise from the CFC Re: Another spinc-doctoring exercise from the CFC Re: Another spinc-doctoring exercise from the CFC Re: Air guns Re: Air guns Re: Another spinc-doctoring exercise from the CFC Re: The M.A.D.D Commercial Prohibited firearms deadline CFC Bulletin on airguns and the Minister's capricious powers MY Licence a joke CFC Special Bulletin for Business #28: Airguns Results of Calgary Sun On-Line Poll License those drive-by shooters Deactivating a firearm an intricate manoeuvre Firearms charges laid after standoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:45:55 -0500 From: "Albert Hodder" Subject: 9mm mags. Hi Folks :-- Does anyone know where I can find some after market mags for a Star model A 9mm ? Please reply off list. Thanks Albert Hodder canoeman@bond.net He who goes unarmed in paradise, had better be sure that that is where He is. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 17:24:11 -0500 From: EUGEN SINGER Subject: Leasing of firearma You(and all the firearma dealers) should read not only CILA published letter of Ms. Roussel but the very good comments of Ed Burlew LL.B. as well as the opinion of DAT( part of copy attached) Eugen - ------------------------------------------- DATs opinion on leasing: ......FA s. 33 covers how one lends a firearm. FA s. 59 indicates that lending prohibited firearms and restricted firearms IS allowable under FA s. 33, and CC s. 84(4)(b)(ii) confirms that interpretation. CC s. 17 covers possession at home. The CFC claims that renting or leasing is not covered by FA s. 33, although Black's Law Dictionary defines "lend" as "To put out for hire or compensation. To part with a thing of value to another for a time fixed or indefinite, yet to have some time in ending, to be used or enjyed by that other, the thing itself or the equivalent of it to be given back at the time fixed, or when lawfully asked for, WITH OR WITHOUT COMPENSATION for the use AS MAY BE AGREED UPON [emphasis added]." It seems clear that the government will contest a leasing arrangement, and will probably lose. A lender may package up a legally-owned REGISTERED "restricted firearm" or "prohibited firearm" (even a machine gun), and the registration certificate for that firearm, and call a courier service that is a licensed carrier. The carrier picks the package at the lender's home (so no ATT is required by the lender). The carrier delivers the package to the borrower's home, so no ATT is required by the borrower. If the firearm is unrestricted, the borrower or lender may take the unrestricted firearm and the registration certificate for it from the lender's home to the borrower's home without an ATT (not equired). >From that point on, the borrower is in legal possession if the borrower has a valid FAC or licence covering unrestricted firearms. NOTE: The invisible "deemed" licence granted by CC s. 98 will NOT cover a firearm borrowed AFTER 01 Dec 1998, but WILL cover an unrestricted firearm borrowed BEFORE 01 Dec 1998. If the borrower has a valid licence or FAC that allows him to be in possession of a firearm of that class, the borrower is now in legal possession of that firearm and is now the "holder" of the registration certificate for that firearm [CC s. 84(4)(b)(ii). The borrower's possession of a borrowed "restricted firearm" or "prohibited firearm" at home is covered by FA s. 17. No ATT is required. The borrower may apply for an ATT covering a borrowed firearm, and may be issued one [FA s. 59]. Whether leasing or renting is equal in law to borrowing is disputed. The NFA estimates a 90 per cent chance of the NFA position being chosen by a judge (see Black's Law Dictionary quote above). Dave Tomlinson, NFA Legal Eugen Singer Toronto, ON., Canada ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:12:09 -0500 From: Jhogue Subject: Another spinc-doctoring exercise from the CFC The Sault Star, 2000.12.13 p. B12, Nahlah Ayed Federal gov't takes issue with media reports > > Ottawa took issue Tuesday with media reports suggesting half of gun owners > have yet to apply for licences under the licensing portion of the act. >... Mary Antonett Flumian, chief executive officer of > the centre ... says she has commissioned a market study of 6,000 people that > will settle the matter for good. > She says she has no reason to believe the study results will deviate much > from the government's current estimate. So Mz. Flumian is already in a position to announce the conclusions of a study that has not been completed. And the conclusions of that study precisely match the one-year-old figures of the government. (A cynic would suggest that one way to be certain of that would be to first establish the conclusion and then work backwards to select only the facts that substantiate the "findings".) "Settle for good" : like "the debate is over". The market research found no one who answered : "I plan to defy the law and keep guns illegally" so this proves 100 % compliance. Big deal. The unwritten law of polling : if the answer to a question is more than 75 % either for or against something, then you asked the wrong question and you wasted your money. Apparently the CFC is so sensitive to criticism it saw fit to spend taxpayers' money on a study that is not expected to reveal anything new. A bit surprising considering that the liberals are again free to do whatever they please for the next five years without being accountable to anyone. Least of all the Auditor General, who has chosen to look the other way. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:45:09 -0700 From: "Gordon" Subject: Re: Another spinc-doctoring exercise from the CFC I wonder what the 6000 people in downtown Totonto Will have to say? Or downtown in any major city, for that matter! Take the Poll in the Green colored part of the Election Map! Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:34:11 -0500 From: "John E. Stevens" Subject: Re: Another spinc-doctoring exercise from the CFC At 01:12 PM 12/17/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >... Mary Antonett Flumian, chief executive officer of > > the centre ... says she has commissioned a market study of 6,000 people > that > > will settle the matter for good. > > She says she has no reason to believe the study results will deviate much > > from the government's current estimate. Well now, she may well be right, depending on how they stir the numbers. Myself, I've applied twice. Once in early May to give them lots of time prior to my FAC expiring and once again when I realized they'd conveniently "not located" the first. And in 13 days, with a change of underwear and my tooth brush, I'll report to the local gaol as the criminal I will become at the stroke of midnight. Perhaps 20 or 30 thousand of my fellow criminals would join me? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:53:38 -0600 From: "Brad Thorarinson" Subject: Re: Air guns From: "EUGEN SINGER" > When I read the CFC Special Bulletin for Businesses - No 28 Airguns I am > confused . > Who decides what is and what is not legal. Is it the law as it is written > and interpreted by a judge or the opinion of a official in the Min. of > Justice or in the CFC. > Eugen Keep a copy of that one to show how the incompetents are deliberately misstating the law; presumably because it would be too difficult to administer it if they tried. If it is designed or adapted to be _capable_ of firing a projectile over 500 ft/sec., it _is_ a firearm. The only discretion the minister has is to declare amnesties, move firearms from the ordinary to restricted and prohibited classes (and some back eg ISU handguns from prohibited to restricted). I suppose she could declare them to be antiques, but that would be a real twisting of the rules. The law is what it is, and it means what the _judge_ says it means, not the minister. Brad ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:52:58 -0800 From: "gunsil" Subject: Re: Air guns The matter of what is or isn't legal is an ad-hoc process directed by pure partisan politics and backed up by corrupted pseudo-science and political court appointees. I suppose most or all federal legislation takes this form why not the regulatory regime of the firearms act? - ----- Original Message ----- From: EUGEN SINGER Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 3:10 PM Subject: Air guns > When I read the CFC Special Bulletin for Businesses - No 28 Airguns I am > confused . > Who decides what is and what is not legal. Is it the law as it is written > and interpreted by a judge or the opinion of a official in the Min. of > Justice or in the CFC. > Eugen > > Eugen Singer > Toronto, ON., Canada > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:12:02 -0700 From: "Dewey" Subject: Re: Another spinc-doctoring exercise from the CFC >... Mary Antonett Flumian, chief executive officer of > > the centre ... says she has commissioned a market study of 6,000 people > that > > will settle the matter for good. > > She says she has no reason to believe the study results will deviate much > > from the government's current estimate Do you think,that this could also be like the old saying? Figures.....Lie Liars.....Figure ! Dewey ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:17:27 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Jones Subject: Re: The M.A.D.D Commercial - --- Bruce Merkley wrote: > That D@#$%d commercial with the idiot waving a gun > around is back again. > I was watching The Dave Chalk show on the business > channel 08:50 Saturday > morning and they trotted out this piece of garbage > once again. > > I thought that we had settled that one with them. > > Bruce Merkley I saw it too. Incidently some idiot from MADD had the nerve to solicit me for cash by phone. I told them they are a bunch of idiots portraying law-abiding firearm owners as killers and if they don't stop calling I'll charge them with harassment. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:49:08 -0700 From: "D. Neil Graham" Subject: Prohibited firearms deadline In the fall of 1999 my wife received a letter warning her that a prohibited handgun (short-barrelled .32) registered to her had to be disposed of, or destroyed, by 31 Dec 1999. A week later came the news that the deadline had been extended until 31 Dec 2000. Has there been any further news about that deadline? Is it one of the few deadlines that hasn't been changed again? Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:15:38 -0500 From: Jhogue Subject: CFC Bulletin on airguns and the Minister's capricious powers > Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:53:56 -0500 > From: Marc Mousseau > Subject: CFC Special Bulletin for Business #28 Airguns > > Special Bulletin for Business #28 Airguns > http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/owners&users/bulletins/special/businesses/bulletin28-en.html > > Special Bulletin for Businesses - No 28 Airguns > > * Some media reports have recently claimed that millions of popular > airguns must now be registered because they are capable of discharging > new, lightweight pellets at a velocity exceeding the limit of 152.4 > metres per second. > * The Minister of Justice is responsible for determining whether airguns > must be registered. > Under Part III of the Criminal Code, airguns are not considered to be > firearms for the purposes of the Firearms Act unless they were: > > a.designed or adapted to discharge projectiles at a muzzle velocity of > more than 152.4 metres (500 feet) per second ... > > ... However, the assignment of an FRT number does not automatically > make an airgun subject to registration. The final determination as to > what constitutes a firearm for the purposes of licensing and registration > lies with the Minister of Justice. > > The tests of high-velocity pellets will not be the sole factor in making > this determination. Several other factors must also be taken into > consideration, including the manufacturer’s design specifications. > Manufacturers and other interested parties will be consulted and > various options will be examined before a determination is made. The main consideration will essentially be politically motivated. Since a few street-gang members are criminoid enough to modify those and put real .22 LR ammunition in those, expect a ban later when the heat is gone. Capricious determinations are second nature for McLellan. Gun owners are supposed to rely on her to protect them from the lack of judgment of petty bureaucrats. How very reassuring. This episode again illustrates the sweeping powers that have been given to drones and how quickly such powers can be abused and spiral out of control. Point #1 - Why is it that it is the NFA that must do the thinking for the CFC and the Minister? Some 5#|I-disturber came up with the brilliant initiative to use Laserlock pellets to designate air guns as prohibited firearms in the FireArms Reference Table. But the whole CFC had to be told by the NFA about the devastating legal and social ramifications. Now the CFC is trying to put the lid back on the can of worms - after they all fell out of the can. Can't these people think for themselves? Again, the CFC is reacting to NFA disclosures. And very quickly at that. Apparently, the battle for public opinion remains a priority for the CFC, even though the liberals are free to abuse their powers for another 5 long years without being accountable to anyone. Odd. Point #2 - That bulletin is MISSING the customary CFC weasel disclaimer The disclaimer: "This bulletin is intended to provide general information only. For legal references, please refer to the [impossible-to-understand mountain of] Firearms Act and its Regulations." Weasels. Was it an oversight or did someone at the CFC decide that the CFC should honestly accept responsibility for the information it provides? Since the disclaimer is not there, maybe it could be useful to download the bulletin and keep it as a future reference material when the liberals order the gun police to round up air gun owners for a public opinion operation. If the entire bureaucracy has no clue as to whether or not a firearm is a firearm, then how could a court demand more of the "back-country-hick/beer-bellied/wife-beater/balding/over-40/no-seatblet/white-male" stereotype gun owner? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:54:16 -0600 From: gadair Subject: MY Licence a joke From: Brian W Bedingfield Subject: Re: Licensing rules are a joke At 11:36 PM 12/14/00 -0600, you wrote: >PAL(against my better judgement). First the picture was a joke, a quick >Polaroid taken without my glasses on(the only time I take them off is On the application form it states, "do not wear a hat or sunglasses". Regular corrective eyeglasses would be permitted. Brian the reason I mentioned this fact was because I also read the form and knew what it said. I questioned the folks there about the fact that I am quite near sighted and no one sees me without my glasses. I am wondering how many others there are out there who had come across this same thing. To me it is not a true picture of myself and yet they said that if there was any glare on my prescription glasses my picture would be rejected. Since like the rest of this licensing debate, I found myself in a loosing battle on this and at a short time frame to continue the argument so I gave it up. I still believe that this whole thing is a joke and we have lost another freedom. George Just because a dog licks your hand doesn't mean he won't bite you if you grab his bowl! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:11:39 -0500 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: CFC Special Bulletin for Business #28: Airguns Special Bulletin for Business #28 Airguns http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/owners&users/bulletins/special/businesses/bulletin 28-en.html [French] Bulletin spécial à l'intention des entreprises - NO 28 http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/owners&users/bulletins/special/businesses/bulletin 28-fr.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:30:04 -0500 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Results of Calgary Sun On-Line Poll PUBLICATION: The Calgary Sun DATE: 2000.12.15 SECTION: News PAGE: 2 TODAY'S SUN/ FYICALGARY.COM ONLINE POLL Yesterday, we asked: "Do you think a national gun owners group is right to plan to ignore the Jan. 1 deadline for firearm licences in protest of Bill C-68?" Out of 178 respondents, 57.5% said yes and 42.5% said no. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:49:21 -0500 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: License those drive-by shooters PUBLICATION WINNIPEG FREE PRESS DATE : FRI DEC.15,2000 PAGE : A15 CLASS : Letters to Editor EDITION : Letters to the Editor License those drive-by shooters About the recent drive-by shootings -- one consolation is that, by Jan. 1, all these drive-by shooters will have obtained their firearm possession certificates and on the application form where it says "occupation" they will have stated "drive-by shooter." Then the victims will know that they have been shot at by a person who has a legal right to possess a firearm. If these drive-by shooters do not get a possession certificate, then they will not be able to register their weapons or to buy ammunition. This may cause much wringing of hands and wailing in the ranks of the criminal element. But no need to worry -- the Queen's Cowboys can then swoop down on retiree Joe Smith who neglected to get a possession certificate for his rusty old- single shot rabbit gun, haul him off to the clink and say, "THE SYSTEM WORKS." LOU SPAKOWSKI Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:47:45 -0500 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Deactivating a firearm an intricate manoeuvre PUBLICATION: The Moncton Times and Transcript DATE: 2000.12.16 SECTION: New Brunswick PAGE: A4 SOURCE: Times & Transcript Staff Deactivating a firearm an intricate manoeuvre; New legislation, which comes into effect Jan. 1, lays out specific rules for disarming weapons Deactivating a firearm involves more than just making sure the gun can't fire. For small arms of 20-mm or less, new firearms laws that come into force on Jan. 1 dictate that a hardened steel blind pin of bore diameter or larger must be force-fitted through the barrel at the chamber and, where practical, simultaneously through the frame or receiver to prevent chambering of ammunition. Furthermore, the blind pin must be welded in place so that the exposed end of the pin is completely covered by weld. The strength and hardness of the weld must be similar to that of the metal used in the gun. In the case of firearms having calibres larger than 12.7 mm or 0.5 inch, the pin need not be larger in diameter than the calibre. In the case of multi-barrelled firearms, all barrels must be pinned, using as many pins as necessary to block all chambers. As well, the barrel must be welded to the frame or receiver to prevent replacement. The breech face or portion of the bolt which supports the cartridge must be removed or drilled out to a diameter at least as large as the base of the cartridge, so that the bolt can no longer support the cartridge. The receiver must be welded closed to prevent the replacement of the breech bolt. For fully-automatic firearms, the trigger mechanism must be rendered unusable. Any trigger mechanism part which is necessary for full-automatic fire must be destroyed by cutting or grinding and then be welded in place to prevent replacement. For rifles, shotguns and handguns that are other than revolvers, the barrel, bolt and frame (or receiver) must be modified the same as stated above, and the bolt, if it is a separate piece, must be welded to the frame or receiver to prevent replacement. In the case of revolvers, revolving rifles and shotguns, and cap-and-ball revolvers, the barrel or cylinder must be blocked by a hardened steel pin of bore diameter which traverses the entire length of the barrel and cylinder. The pin must be welded in place at the muzzle, barrel/cylinder gap and, except for muzzle-loading firearms, at the breech end of the frame. The strength and hardness of the welds must be similar to that of the firearm in question. For black-powder rifles and shotguns, the barrel must be blocked immediately in front of the flash hole using a blind pin in the manner described above. As well, the flash hole must be welded shut. For percussion guns, the nipple may be welded closed then welded to the barrel to prevent replacement. For magazines, the follower must be welded to the interior of the magazine to prevent loading of ammunition, and the body of the magazine must be welded to the frame of the gun to prevent removal. In instances of firearms of unusual design, authorities say allowances "may" be made for variations of the above procedures, as long as the same goal is accomplished -- rendering the firearm permanently, totally and irrevocably inoperable. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:53:29 -0500 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Firearms charges laid after standoff PUBLICATION WINNIPEG FREE PRESS DATE : SAT DEC.16,2000 PAGE : A10 CLASS : City EDITION : Firearms charges laid after standoff Staff Reporter RCMP have charged a 22-year-old Long Plains resident with several firearms offences following a day-long standoff Thursday at the western Manitoba community of Keeseekoowenin First Nation. Kenneth Longclaws is charged with pointing a firearm, possessing a weapon dangerous to the public peace, careless use of a firearm and uttering threats. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #561 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:IParkinson@ccinet.ab.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v03.n198 end (198 is the digest issue number and 03 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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