From: 2001/01/08 09:30 Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #586To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, January 8 2001 Volume 03 : Number 586 In this issue: On rolling over and playing dead Cross Canada Check Up CFC Expresses surprize at alternatives Re: Firearms And Weapons Re: Failing grade Re: legality of borrowing from an unlicensed individual London Free Press letter [none] The generous Canadian CILA Letter to the Brockville Recorder and Times Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #570 Rex Murphy and CBC Cross Country Check-up An interesting idea CILA Letter to the Brockville Recorder and Times ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 16:38:15 -0500 From: Jhogue Subject: On rolling over and playing dead I used to wide a brush to tar organizations who still attending CFC meetings as rolling over and playing dead. I did not allow for those with a missionnary attitude and incredible patience who could be still trying to steer the elephant in the right direction instead of caving in to the CFC. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:58:55 -0500 From: "Paul Chicoine" <701506@ican.net> Subject: Cross Canada Check Up The implementation of the firearms act and if the populace will comply, will be the subject of debate on CBC Cross Canada Check Up in two weeks time, January 21 - ----------------- Paul Chicoine (RSA) 0x26C2633F (DSS) 0x3B0DB246 Non Assumsit Contract, All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 13:05:12 GMT From: 10x@canoemail.com Subject: CFC Expresses surprize at alternatives It was reported on Global Television this morning that firearms owners can "give their guns to museums for a tax receipt". Mr. Austin expressed some surprize that there was an alternative to "turning the guns over to the police or having them deactivated". Disposal of firearms to those legally enabled to possess them has always been an option. I wonder where the CFC has been, and why they are consumed with the "turning the guns over to the police or having them deactivated". Tunnel vision, eh what? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:31:08 -0700 From: "Jim Szpajcher" Subject: Re: Firearms And Weapons Mark - Subject: Re: Firearms And Weapons > > A gun is a weapon in the hands of a police officer, > > member of the armed forces or a criminal.......a gun > > is a firearm in the hands of a law-abiding citizen. > > Mine are all weapons. They are all military. Weapons are honourable things. > > Mark > Mine are all firearms, even though some are military. Firearms are honorable things, too. :-) I trust I will never have to use them as weapons, although Dr. Mike says it right: "Hope for the best. Plan for the worst." Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 20:59:02 -0700 From: "Gordon" Subject: Re: Failing grade Sorry to hear that Tom! I bought a rifle at lock n Load - the old premises of kearns and McMurchy on 115 st. It took twenty minutes to get a TAN number adn illegally (no registration certificate) take it home! The time consited of about 5 minutes initially on the phone - and a 15 minute wait for them to call back adn give us the information! I understand from another member that she was told the CFO had no idea how to deal with firearms sold to dealers just prior to the deadline. She left the firearms there and will await the TAN . Must depend on who you get when you call? Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 20:21:05 EST From: LawrenceAWehren@aol.com Subject: Re: legality of borrowing from an unlicensed individual In a message dated 01/07/2001 7:44:53 AM, tanstafl@telusplanet.net writes: << No. You cannot legally borrow a firearm unless the registration comes with it. It can't be registered to an unlicensed owner. I don't know if lending and borrowing are mutually exclusive or not though. Barry >> OK: how about this scenario: someone (A) takes all his firearms to a friend (B) last year because his FAC ran out and he was going to get a new one. the weapons are still at the friends (B) house and he(A) still hasn't got his FAC. the friend (B)has a current FAC and is "storing" the guns now until the fellow gets his required license. He (A) is a great procrastinator and may not ever get his required liscence. what is the legal implication for the fellow (B) storing the weapons in his locked cabinet with the rest of his own weapons? Larry Wehren Member of: West Coast Fieros of B.C. www.westcoastfieros.com 87GT 5sp Silver 87GT 5sp Black 86SE 4sp Red 85GT auto Red ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 23:43:43 -0500 From: Lee Jasper Subject: London Free Press letter New Firearms Act all about confiscation Regarding the editorial, Poor aim, right target (Dec. 29). It is gratifying you finally acknowledge the Firearms Act is expensive, "bloody-minded" and possibly flawed. Yet, you still uphold the registration of firearms even though there is little demonstrable benefit. Even the minister of justice has retreated from claims of creating a climate of safety. As for storage and safety, these requirements were set out in previous firearms legislation. You claim the aim of the law is control, not confiscation. The aim of the drafters of the legislation is irrelevant. The courts will implement the act. The Firearms Act gives the minister the power to effectively confiscate any firearm by declaring it prohibited without having to obtain parliamentary approval. You say firearms owners are right to be offended by being branded as rednecks, then immediately turn around and brand them as paranoid extremists when they claim the legislation will lead to confiscation. These insults are especially galling when confiscation is already a fact in Canada. The Firearms Act prohibits handguns with barrel lengths of four inches or less and all pistols of .32 and .38 calibres. This is, in effect, confiscation and covers more than 500,000 handguns. We have seen similar confiscation in Britain and Australia. This is how confiscation will proceed -- death by a thousand cuts. When it happens, we will take no pleasure in saying that we told you so. Robert Austin London No sign of Allister's, Bert's or Paul's letter, yet. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:52:43 -0500 From: "ross" Subject: [none] Picked this up from a site. interesting points... we could easily substitute the Americanisms for Canadianisms. FREEDOM REFRESHER COURSE a. An armed person is a citizen. An unarmed person is a subject. b. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone. c. Six-shooter: The original point and click interface. d. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control. e. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords? f. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words. g. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms. h. If you don't know your rights, you don't have any. i. Those who trade liberty for security have neither. j. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights Reserved. k. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand? l. The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others. m. 64,999,987 firearm owners killed no one yesterday. n. Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians. o. Know guns, Know peace and safety. No guns, no peace nor safety. p. You don't shoot to kill; You shoot to stay alive. q. 911 - government sponsored Dial a Prayer. r. Assault is a behavior, not a device. s. Criminals love gun control - it makes their jobs safer. t. If Guns cause Crime, then Matches cause Arson. u. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control them. v. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for. w. We don't enforce unconstitutional laws; we REPEAL them. x. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves. y. The American Revolution would never have happened with "gun control." z. "....a government by the people, for the people....." - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.225 / Virus Database: 107 - Release Date: 22/12/2000 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 23:59:31 -0500 From: Lee Jasper Subject: The generous Canadian This IS scary!!! London Free Press editorial; Jan. 7/01. Shattering the myth of the generous Canadian Canadians do so few good turns they would be hard-pressed to earn any citizenship badges. The idealized image Canadians hold of themselves is one of joined hands forging stronger communities and a more united nation. But the image is just that, an image, a fantasy, a gossamer Trish Romance painting >snip In fact, a disturbingly small number of Canadians do most of the volunteer grunt work and make most of the charitable donations that give this country its characteristic quality of life. If terminally well-meaning, the vast majority of Canadians are in fact cheap, lazy, uninvolved and perfectly content to take a free ride on the coattails of others. And there are lots of them -- less than a third of Canadians heed a sense of duty to volunteer time for a charity or community group. Eight per cent of adults make half of all the charitable contributions. The same eight per cent supply half the volunteer hours to care for the elderly, build nature trails and run Guide groups. The picture is even more acute with addition of a secondary, slightly less involved group that makes up 20 per cent of the population. Together, this collection of less than three in 10 Canadians account for 83 per cent of volunteer hours, 77 per cent of donations and 69 per cent of civic participation. By any measure, that's a sorry snapshot of civic engagement in this country. >snip So what are we to make of this troubling information? For a cause we need not look beyond the culture of dependence on government that has developed over the past half century in Canada. Social programs have delivered vastly improved medicine and living standards for seniors across the country, but the politicized showering of cash for votes through many useless regional development and other programs has weaned Canadians off self-reliance and caring for each other at the local level. The culture of personal entitlement that has developed over several decades and eroded the will to volunteer, donate and participate will take a generation to set right. >snip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 02:42:42 -0500 From: Al Dorans Subject: CILA Letter to the Brockville Recorder and Times CILA Defending Canada's Heritage ................................. CILA Letter to the Brockville Recorder and Times "How gullible are Canadians?" Re. "Allan Rock deserves credit for resisting gun lobby" (Jan. 5), T. Hazelaar's claim that a majority of Canadians support C-68 is a national farce. First, 60% of Canadians do not own firearms and have no interest in complex gun laws. According to MACLEANS magazine, 95% of citizens believe crime is not a major problem. Two, Mauser and Buckner (1997) determined that only 200 people out of 30 million know Canada's present gun laws. Consequently, surveying Canadians on the need for stricter gun legislation is fatally flawed when they have no idea of existing laws. Three, asking responsible firearms owners "Do you support gun control?" will draw positive responses but in no way should this be interpreted as support for the legislative disasters in Bill C-68: The Firearms Act. Four, 8 provincial and territorial governments, representing 57%-70% of Canadians, opposed C-68 in the Supreme Court of Canada. So how could any rational person be gullible enough to believe the distortions and propaganda spewing from the self-serving Department of Justice and the Canadian Firearms Center? Allan Rock introduced C-68 which violates your Constitutional and Charter rights: your right to be innocent until proven guilty, your right to avoid self-incrimination, your right to legal counsel, your right to be represented by your Member of Parliament, your right to freedom of association, your right to be treated equally before the law. C-68 allows for the arbitrary seizure of your private property without compensation. C-68 permits police home invasions without a search warrant on the sheer suspicion that firearms might be present. Does anyone care? Allan Rock deceived Canadians repeatedly. He promised that C-68 would focus on criminals and not interfere with law-abiding gun owners; that registration would not mean confiscation; that C-68 would cost $85 million over 5 years; that hackers would never break into the computer registry; that C-68 would be scrapped if it ever reached $150 million (now $585 million); that a national gun registry was the cornerstone of his criminal justice package all along, when it never appeared in the Liberal Redbook. No wonder Lorne Gunter Edmonton Journal wrote, "Bill C-68 is the greatest act of civil disobedience in the history of Canada!" Accordingly, Mr. Hazelaar's blind admiration for social engineer Allan Rock should be confined exclusively to members of Rock's immediate family. Professor Al Dorans Director of Operations Canadian Institute for Legislative Action / Institut Canadien pour l'Action Législative National Office: P.O.Box 44030, 600 Grandview St. S. Oshawa, ON. L1H 8P4 Ph: (905) 571-2150 Fax: (905) 436-7721 e-mail: teebee@sprint.ca Ottawa Office: 27 Cedar Grove Crt. Nepean, ON. K2G 0M4 Ph: (613) 828-8805 Fax: (613) 828-6967 e-mail: aldorans@magma.ca Home: http://www.cila.org A proud member of the World Forum on the Future of Sport Shooting Activities / Forum du Monde sur le Futur d'Activités des Sports des Armes à Feu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 16:39:18 -0500 From: Gordon Butler Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #570 B Farion wrote: > > Hi; > Well, if the outfitters in Ontario are upset with the $50 registration fee then why did they vote Lieberal????? > Cheers > Bill (;-) ??? That was not included in any liberal election platform. Guys with the political outlook, such as yours, only further alienate Ontario voters. Besides, these US requirements were clarified only after the election. The West only beats their drums complaining of the liberal election win. The West deliberately ignores the numbers by which the C.A. lost to the liberals in Ontario. The writers browbeating Ontario for the liberal win are only preaching to the choir. Don't forget that majority of the chat readers from Ontario agree with the West's outlook. The vast amount of people who voted liberal in Ontario, do not subscribe to this list. A wiser idea would be to encourage them members, of this list from Ontario. Who, like the West are disappointed regarding the election outcome. "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." Gordo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:21:45 -0500 From: "Bert van Ingen" Subject: Rex Murphy and CBC Cross Country Check-up Just minutes ago Rex Murphy announced that the topic for the radio = phone-in show: Cross Country Check-up ( Sunday afternoons ) two weeks = from today ( ie Sunday 21 Jan 2001 ) would be the "controversial gun = control law". I missed the phone number but there is plenty of time for = "us" to prepare and get the word out. CBC also accepts snail-mail and = e-mail submissions for the show. Let's do it folks, and not just have = the regular dozen RFC people call in. All kinds of ordinary folks who = paid no attention before are now finding out they can be charged simply = for offering to turn in a firearm to police. None of these people = realized that no one can now possess a firearm without some form of = Licence. Rex is originally from rural NFLD so I suspect he is much more = familiar with the positive use of firearms than the socialist Toronto = CBC crowd, of which Michael Enright is one. Pamela Wallin must once have = been a country girl as she did not slander us last summer in her Cross = Country Check-up debut. Perhaps we can recommend guest speakers for both = sides. Former Ottawa police chief Brian Ford and anti-gun lawyer Clayton = Ruby are nutty enough, whereas Wally Butts, DAT, or Ray Laycock speak = very well. Bert van Ingen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:50:40 -0700 From: "Tom Bryant" Subject: An interesting idea This idea was forwarded for my comment. I find the idea interesting as I too am curious about how many people are truly not complying. From my own experience I can say that I have heard of people making that decision.One story was about 15 guys getting together for a pre-Christmas get together at the restaurant. Out of fifteen people 12 owned firearms. Only two had applyed for a license. Thats a major failure for the FEDS. Sending this form to Stockwell Day would ensure that it gets public. Its free to send to Ottawa so if these forms could be widely available we would get an idea of the true numbers. I can understand why people would be reluctant to expose themselves publicly. I can also understand why they would like a way to vent their protest without risk. This may be the way. The declaration would be on a single piece of paper with Days address on it at the bottom. As I understand it the paper could be folded so that a piece of tape would keep it closed and Days address would be on the outside. Drop it in the mailbox and let the Alliance bring it to the public. I'd like to know how many protestors there REALLY are. Here is the message as sent to me: A message to the Government of Canada. RE: C-68 The Firearms Law. I WILL NOT COMPLY! For obvious reasons I cannot sign my name or give you my address as on Jan. 1, 2001 you made me a criminal so I have made my mark in the appropriate place on this document. I have sent you this document c/o the Official Opposition as I am afraid that the Liberals would deliberately suppress evidence of non-compliance by citizens opposed to this law. It is my hope that the Opposition will reveal the true numbers of citizens that have forwarded this document to you. I hereby give notice that I have joined the largest civil disobedience movement in Canadian history. My mark _______________ TO: Mr. Stockwell Day Leader of the Opposition House of Commons Parliament Buildings Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 02:42:42 -0500 From: Al Dorans Subject: CILA Letter to the Brockville Recorder and Times CILA Defending Canada's Heritage ................................. CILA Letter to the Brockville Recorder and Times "How gullible are Canadians?" Re. "Allan Rock deserves credit for resisting gun lobby" (Jan. 5), T. Hazelaar's claim that a majority of Canadians support C-68 is a national farce. First, 60% of Canadians do not own firearms and have no interest in complex gun laws. According to MACLEANS magazine, 95% of citizens believe crime is not a major problem. Two, Mauser and Buckner (1997) determined that only 200 people out of 30 million know Canada's present gun laws. Consequently, surveying Canadians on the need for stricter gun legislation is fatally flawed when they have no idea of existing laws. Three, asking responsible firearms owners "Do you support gun control?" will draw positive responses but in no way should this be interpreted as support for the legislative disasters in Bill C-68: The Firearms Act. Four, 8 provincial and territorial governments, representing 57%-70% of Canadians, opposed C-68 in the Supreme Court of Canada. So how could any rational person be gullible enough to believe the distortions and propaganda spewing from the self-serving Department of Justice and the Canadian Firearms Center? Allan Rock introduced C-68 which violates your Constitutional and Charter rights: your right to be innocent until proven guilty, your right to avoid self-incrimination, your right to legal counsel, your right to be represented by your Member of Parliament, your right to freedom of association, your right to be treated equally before the law. C-68 allows for the arbitrary seizure of your private property without compensation. C-68 permits police home invasions without a search warrant on the sheer suspicion that firearms might be present. Does anyone care? Allan Rock deceived Canadians repeatedly. He promised that C-68 would focus on criminals and not interfere with law-abiding gun owners; that registration would not mean confiscation; that C-68 would cost $85 million over 5 years; that hackers would never break into the computer registry; that C-68 would be scrapped if it ever reached $150 million (now $585 million); that a national gun registry was the cornerstone of his criminal justice package all along, when it never appeared in the Liberal Redbook. No wonder Lorne Gunter Edmonton Journal wrote, "Bill C-68 is the greatest act of civil disobedience in the history of Canada!" Accordingly, Mr. Hazelaar's blind admiration for social engineer Allan Rock should be confined exclusively to members of Rock's immediate family. Professor Al Dorans Director of Operations Canadian Institute for Legislative Action / Institut Canadien pour l'Action Législative National Office: P.O.Box 44030, 600 Grandview St. S. Oshawa, ON. L1H 8P4 Ph: (905) 571-2150 Fax: (905) 436-7721 e-mail: teebee@sprint.ca Ottawa Office: 27 Cedar Grove Crt. Nepean, ON. K2G 0M4 Ph: (613) 828-8805 Fax: (613) 828-6967 e-mail: aldorans@magma.ca Home: http://www.cila.org A proud member of the World Forum on the Future of Sport Shooting Activities / Forum du Monde sur le Futur d'Activités des Sports des Armes à Feu ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #586 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:IParkinson@ccinet.ab.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v03.n198 end (198 is the digest issue number and 03 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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