From: Wed 07:38 Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #594To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, January 17 2001 Volume 03 : Number 594 In this issue: Gun Show R. v . Lind [Sask Pr Ct Nov 2000 ] Liberal Prime Ministers Restricted Weapons & Target Shooting Volume 03 : Number 592 BCWF ALERT #9: Firearm seizures beginning David Anderson's no friend of ours Re: The AR-10 Rifle Clarification & Constable Vermette Temporary License re: AR10 rifle Re: Temporary License Re: Temporary License Missing Costs of Bill C-68 RCMP HAVE STILL NOT DEREGISTERED AIRGUNS! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:26:04 -0800 From: "dmwright" Subject: Gun Show GUN SHOW, This coming Sunday Jan 21st 2001, At Woodstock Fairgrounds, Woodstock. Ont 875 Nellis Street, One block North of Dundas St, (Hwy #2) For more information Ph 905-689-8181. Show runs from 8.00 a.m. to 1.00 p.m. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:33:56 -0700 From: "Richard A. Fritze" Subject: R. v . Lind [Sask Pr Ct Nov 2000 ] The above-noted decision is now available in digital format. It is already available through the NFAs web site site in .pdf format. If you'd like a copy, email me directly or go to the NFAs site. Richard A. Fritze Castor, AB T0C 0X0 (780) 449-3808 - Phone (780) 464-6707 - Fax www.fritze.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:49:49 -0600 From: "Winram" Subject: Liberal Prime Ministers For anybody out there who needs to be re-primed regarding the nature of our national "leader" whom we are currently cursed with or why we need to resist his anti-democratic and authoritarian regime, check out the following book report: "Pepper In Our Eyes:The APEC Affair" by W. Wesley Pue at Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:19:59 -0500 > From: "Me" > Subject: Restricted Weapons & Target Shooting > > I contacted the CFO and asked whether I could acquire the gun for > target shooting, and recieve a border crossing ATT to shoot at > the Michigan range. Check to see if you can legally bring your gun into the State(s). One time I took a handgun down for a gun show. At the boarder I stated why I was bringing the gun into the States. I was told that bringing guns down was allowed for only two purposes 1) hunting and 2) target shooting in a competition. He let me take the gun down to the show but could have refused me. Target shooting in a competition is not the same as target shooting. Also check if the State of Michigan has any laws that could restrict you. As far a obtaining a restricted firearm. If you have 9 other guns that will be registered, you could obtain a gun restricted gun for "collection" purposes. Why I mentioned the other 9 guns is that when you get to 10 guns registered (your handgun would be the 10th) you would be subject to the same inspection requirements as a collector. As a collector you don't have to belong to a gun club in order to obtain restricted firearms. Do check into the requirements for collectors though. Collectors may also obtain transport permits. Just a thought. Remeber, believe only half of what you hear, and get that in writing. - ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:20:07 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Powlesland Subject: BCWF ALERT #9: Firearm seizures beginning - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:35:03 -0800 From: John B. Holdstock To: John Holdstock Subject: BCWF ALERT #9: Firearm seizures beginning This message was sent to me yesterday by a good friend. I suspect that this is just one of many more stories to come. I know that I have two personal friends who have had their firearms seized for different reasons. And the more people that I talk to, the more stories that I hear. This is just the tip of the iceberg. ************************** Tonight, one of my friends and part time employee experienced the worst fear of many gun owners-a visit from the RCMP and a search of his house. Acting on a report by an unnamed citizen, the local Detachment of the RCMP held a meeting and planned executed a raid for "illegal firearms". They decided to send only one officer-an acquaintance of my friend's. A total of eight firearms, all hunting rifles including two antique .22's and one commemorative .30.30 were taken from my friend's house simply because he has not yet applied for a firearms possession licence. The fact that my friend is a full blooded Cowichan Indian, a Tribe member, and family man who owns his own house with his wife and young daughter made no difference to the RCMP. They were acting on a complaint and took action under the new Firearms Legislation. Whether criminal charges will be laid for illegal possession is doubtful but I think you will all agree that is not the issue. His guns were confiscated simply because someone complained that he did not have a firearms possession licence. ****************************** BCWF ALERT John B. Holdstock B.C. Wildlife Federation Kelowna, B.C. jholdsto@bctree.com http://www.bcwf.bc.ca The world is run by those who show up. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:13:41 -0800 (PST) From: Barry Glasgow Subject: David Anderson's no friend of ours - - --- ross wrote: > I for one would like to send a letter to MP Andersen > thanking him for his honesty and praise him for it., > > Any one got his e-mail addy. Before you trip all over yourself kissing this guy's behind, remember these things; 1) this legislation passed 6 years ago without so much as a whimper from Mr. Anderson 2) thanking a Liberal who shows new found support for gun owners shows the same feebleness of mind as someone who voted for Joe Who. Remember how the PC's foisted Bill C-17 on us after Kim Who toyed with the idea of locking our guns in central repositories ? Years later, while Reform had a good chance to take some Liberal ridings here in Ontario (and elsewhere), the PC party had the gaul to run a Reform platform with "Remember Bill C-68 when you vote" signs after Charest said nothing and the PC-dominated Senate let it slide through. People were stupid enough to lap it all up and many of those ridings went back to Liberals through a Reform/PC split. 3) on a related note, take a look at Vancouver Island (where Mr. Anderson has finally found his vocal cords). When I was there in November, there were Bill C-68 signs everywhere and at least one Liberal incumbent got tossed during the election. I think the Island has, for the most part, gone Canadian Alliance and Mr. Anderson must be feeling very lonely and vulnerable. See the spiel for what it is and remember how badly the fisheries have been screwed up and how the endangered species legislation will have the same anti-hunting and property rights effects as has the US model. We got rid of our Liberal incumbent just west of Ottawa. The same can happen in Victoria. There's no Liberal like a gone Liberal. We don't forget and we don't give up. Barry Glasgow Woodlawn, Ontario __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:14:56 -0500 From: "TriggerMortis" Subject: Re: The AR-10 Rifle > Greetings, > > For quite some time I've been interested in the AR-10 rifle, but I > always thought that it was in the 'endangered species list' along with > the AKM, BM-59, FN-FAL and all our other old friends. Now, I was > reading this months Small Arms Review, and in an article it mentions > that the AR-10 predates both the AR-15 and M-16 designs. Intrigued, > I read the CFC's prohibited/restricted firearms list, and it restricts > the M-16 rifle and variants... (including AR-15) > ......snip.............. ========== Hi Mike, The AR10 did indeed precede the AR15. It really is a beautiful design. The original AR10 was produced by Armalite in the USA in the late 50's. Original AR10's are full auto and only prototypes exist in the US. They are highly prized by collectors in the US and are accordingly highly priced. They were not adopted by the US. Artillerie Inrichten of Holland produced them under license and sold 2 different models to Sudan and Portugal. Production of the 2 models has been quoted at 5,000 to 16,000. Almost all were full auto. Apparently, a very few were produced in semi. One surfaced in a court battle in Alberta. Dave Tomlinson published some info on that one about a year ago on the Digest. A bunch of them arrived in Canada, being converted to semi-auto, about 23 years ago and were sold then as unrestricted. Some of them were registered in 1992 as converted autos (CA). They are the only ones which are now legal in Canada. None of them entered the US legally. The design was too good to die, however. A couple of companies in the US manufactured receivers for them and parts kits (the whole gun minus the receiver) were imported from Canada to assemble whole guns. The parts kits dried up of course. There just wasn't enough of them. By this time, the Armalite company was history. Maybe 5 years ago, a company was started up. They bought the Armalite name and used it. They produce AR10's & AR15's with the Armalite name. They had to comply with instructions from the BATF and produced rifles which could not use the original full auto parts. So, the Armalite AR10 you see advertised today is not the original and is not full auto. They look much the same. The current AR10 was unrestricted, but has been reclassified to restricted by the RCMP. I don't know the details of that. Anyway, the current AR10 may be purchased by anyone. The original AR10 from Holland may be purchased by anyone who has CA status. I'd like to hear about anyone's experience with the current AR10. I have never fired one. The original ones fire with no muzzle jump and you can hear the big spring in the butt stock go "BOIIIING" when you fire it. All the originals have a bayonet lug. The bayonets are hard to find and (of course) expensive. Some of them had facility for scopes, but most didn't. Some had bipods. Bye. Al. SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM Moderator note: Please reply privately IRP ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:11:44 -1200 From: Dave Harmer Subject: Clarification & Constable Vermette Hello Mr. Breitkreuz, Dave Harmer here from Victoria, BC. I would like to correct you on your last submission to the firearms digest. The editorial from the Montreal Gazette. It is stated in the editorial regarding the mohawk people, that aboriginals who have a criminal record with or without violence can still apply for a license.... This is where the clarification is needed and please pass this on to anyone you please. It does not matter if you have a criminal record. You just have to have an unsubstantiated allegation, other wise known as a fip and in the interest of public safety, you do not get a license and if you have a license, it is revoked and you are not allowed to own or possess firearms for who knows how long. If you disagree with this; all you have to do is file an appeal in which you go before a judge in your local provincial court and try and explain the allegation which was never even so much a whisper in your ear, never mind a charge or a conviction. The firearms officer from Victoria who's name is Constable Glenn Vermette would be sure to tell you that rumors and allegations count in the interest of public safety, it does not matter if it is from your ex wife or ex husband or a perfect stranger, they all count. If you ask him if they check on the background of the person who makes the allegation, why no we can not even find the person!! I am no expert, but this smells a bit peuuwee. So what this to means is that you are guilty without any due process and you have to disprove the rumor or allegation at your expense and time in court. Please feel free to call Constable Vermette in the Victoria office and confirm any of the statements that I have put in writing above. If he tries to deny any of the above information. You can quote him from my above statement and call him a liar. Just a tidbit for you all. Now when you call the police because you need them and you give them your name, the first thing they ask you is? Have you ever been in trouble with the law!!! Gee I wonder what pops up on their screen now eh!! Probably something like prohibited from owning or possessing firearms!! All this without even so much as an outstanding parking ticket!! NICE. What a country!! Sincerely Dave Harmer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:01:51 -0600 From: gadair Subject: Temporary License Well I had two things happen today that I have never had happen to me before. I received the temporary license from Miramichi. The problem is that it is only a POL yet I applied for a PAL so is this thing legal? The expiry date is June 30 2001 yet what happens if they don't get the backlog caught up, am I and all the others like me going to be issued another piece of paper that gives me something I did not apply for. I will be spending time on the phone tomorrow to tell them it is not the license I applied for and it is incomplete. It doesn't have my picture on it, my height is wrong it shows me as being almost 3 centimeters taller then I am (I am +40 so I don't figure on growing any taller in the near future), and it does not have my full name which I put on the form. Any way the whole thing is a joke. What are all the firearms shops supposed to do for the next six months while our government screws around with this unworkable piece of legislation. The only folks who are going to register are those of us who have never and in all likely hood will never use our firearms in the commission of a felony. Second point today, I finally met a real live clone to Wendy Cukier, I honestly thought that she was possibly an anomaly in the world but one of the fellows at work today gave us the same spiel and told us flat out that since he didn't see a use for any one to own guns then no one needed to own guns. He even used the line "If it saves one life". I asked him why it was okay to spend millions to save possibly one life when thousands die yearly for lack of government funding. He then again used that famous line. I also tossed one back at him to the extent that since I saw no use for the type of vehicle he drives then I should also be able to tell him that he no longer drive it because he really doesn't need such a vehicle. Boy did he get upset, he told me it wasn't the same thing cause he was insured for his vehicle but I wasn't for my firearms. I quickly set him straight again, as a paid member of the NFA I was insured for my firearms. He eventually walked out of the lunch room in a huff so I couldn't continue. I never lost my temper and just kept countering all his platitudes with the facts you all have given us. Anyway another day another battle. George If freedom is taken for granted by all it will eventually be lost by all! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 03:52:30 -0400 From: "Rod Regier" Subject: re: AR10 rifle I believe it was decided that the (new) Armalite AR10's are restricted. If you're going to buy one from Wolverine Supplies, check with them. They'll have it on their books as either restricted or not. Since an ATT is needed to lawfully transport a restricted firearm, they'll be sure of the distinction. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:48:07 GMT From: 10x@canoemail.com Subject: Re: Temporary License cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca At 11:01 PM 15/01/01 -0600, you wrote: >Well I had two things happen today that I have never had happen to me >before. I received the temporary license from Miramichi. The problem is >that it is only a POL yet I applied for a PAL so is this thing legal? The >expiry date is June 30 2001 y First you applied for a P.A.L. not a P.O.L. You also applied and paid for for a five year license. The license you have received does not reflect the terms of your appliction nor does it reflect your needs now. It effectively stops you from purchasing firearm for as long as six months, possibly longer. The firearms act is very specific, if any of the terms on your application are refused (not granting them is a refusal) then there must be an explanation as to why they were refused. Get a copy of the firearms act and the regulations arising. Compare your application to the license issued and to the terms set by the firearms act to issue licenses. If your license was issued outside the terms of the act, then you (may) have grounds for an appeal or an explantion. If the license was issued outside of the terms of the firearms act then you have grounds to launch an appeal in the courts. It is a very simple matter to go to your local court house and hand your request to appeal to the clerc of the court. Your letter must state a reason for the appeal and a request for an appearance before a judge. You may also want to do a "freedom of information" request regarding your records at the CFC - to find out why you were issused a P.O.L. so readily but not a P.A.L The following is an example of an appeal application only. You may tailor it to fit your particular circumstances. (my apology for the poor formating) IN THE PROVINCIAL COURT OF ____________ Between: ____________________________ (Appellant) AND ________________________________ (Respondent) TAKE NOTICE THAT I wish to appeal in the Provincial Court of __________ at the City of _____________, in the Province of ___________. The refusal to issue a license as applied for under the Statutes of Canada 1995, Chapter 39. And failure to give notice and explanation for the changes and refusals Under Sections 72 (1),(2) of the Statutes of Canada 1995, Chapter 39. THE REASONS GIVEN FOR MY APPEAL ARE AS FOLLOWS: I applied and paid for for a five year term firearms Possession and Aquistion license (P.A.L.) as per section 54 (1) Of the firearms act. I received a firearms Possession Only License (P.O.L.) valid for six months. I am appealing the issuance of a six month P.O.L. as I did not apply for a P.O.L. and I did apply for a P.A.L. DATED at the City of _______________, in the Province of _________________, this fourth day of ___________________. _________________________ Appellants Signature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:06:57 -0500 From: "John E. Stevens" Subject: Re: Temporary License At 11:01 PM 1/15/2001 -0600, George wrote: >Well I had two things happen today that I have never had happen to me >before. I received the temporary license from Miramichi. The problem is >that it is only a POL yet I applied for a PAL so is this thing legal? The >expiry date is June 30 2001 yet what happens if they don't get the backlog >caught up, am I and all the others like me going to be issued another piece >of paper that gives me something I did not apply for. Hope it does you more good than it did me, George. I got the added comment that "you just won't be able to purchase a new gun til we get caught up." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:25:32 -0500 From: "fred smith" Subject: Missing Costs of Bill C-68 Not to complain about my lot in life but to illustrate the other hidden = costs of Bill C-68, I am one of those other hidden costs. In 1992 I suffered a hunting accident which broke my back, and has = subsequently led to four operations and permanent disability. The = permanent disability part is what I am referring to when I say other = hidden costs. As a result of money shortage in Medicare, I had to wait = 15 months for an M.R.I. and the results of that test. It took 15 months = because we do not have enough M.R.I. machines in this part of Ontario. = As a result, what was almost surely a temporary situation, vis-a-vie my = back, became permanent because it took too long to diagnose the problem. = By the time the problem had been identified by the M.R.I. tests, it was = too late to correct the problem. "Hidden Costs", I am now receiving a = lifetime disability pension from the Feds, at a cost of approx.$800 per = month for life. Given that I was 46 when the accident happened, it will = now cost the Feds approx. $ 182,400 from then until I turn 65. By the way, no need to feel sorry for me , I do have other disability = income which keeps me in toys. Too bad the Feds can't see the error of = their ways; more importantly, it is too bad that the women of this = country can't see what all the gun money could be doing to save their = lives from breast cancer and the like!!! How come these women haven't = hung Cukier and her band of fools??? Fred Smith Rockland, Ont.. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 07:49:25 -0500 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: RCMP HAVE STILL NOT DEREGISTERED AIRGUNS! Contrary to what is said in the CFC's Special Bulletins on Airguns and contrary to what the RCMP agreed to do at a December 8, 2000 meeting with Maryantonett Flumian, CEO of the CFC, the RCMP have still not deregistered the airguns they registered before they were told by the Department of Justice that the "status quo prevails". Special Bulletin for Prosecutors No. 8 - Airguns http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/owners&users/bulletins/special/prosecutors/bulleti n8.html NOTE: Often when long URLs are sent by e-mail they are split into two parts. The two lines have to be reconnected for you to access the URL. RCMP HAVE LISTED 34 AIRGUNS AS FIREARMS ON FIREARMS REFERENCE TABLE (FRT) By Garry Breitkreuz, MP November 30, 2000 - This morning, the RCMP Canadian Firearms Registry provided FRT numbers for four more airguns: Norica M56 FRT# 76012-1 Gamo Model P-800 Restricted FRT# 103035-1 Slavia Model 631 Non-Restricted FRT# 109185-1 Shanghai Model 61 Non-Restricted FRT# 82361-1 November 23, 2000 (PM) This afternoon, the RCMP confirmed that two of Crosman's biggest selling airguns had been added to the FRT: Crosman Model 1008 FRT #31714-1 Crosman 795 Springmaster FRT# 38579-1 November 23, 2000 (AM) - Today the RCMP provided us with the newest list of 15 airguns the Canadian Firearm Registry has changed from non-firearms to firearms on their Firearms Reference Tables (FRT): Umarex Walther cp88 Prohibited Firearm - FRT# 40081-1 Gamo r77 Prohibited Firearm - FRT# 47973-3 Daisy model 131 Powerline Restricted Firearm - FRT# 79531-1 Benj Sheridan Silver Streak 177 Restricted Firearm - FRT# 63222-3 Crosman 1740 Restricted Firearm - FRT# 89275-1 Umarex Walther ppk Restricted Firearm - FRT# 40082-2 Umarex Colt 1911 Restricted Firearm - FRT#47505-3 Gamo r77-6 Restricted Firearm - FRT# 47973-1 Gamo 45 auto Restricted Firearm - FRT# 47966-2 Benj. Sheridan Blue Streak 177 Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 41279-2 Savage 560f FRT# 33149-1 Crosman Challenge 2000 FRT# 72353-1 Crosman mod 66 pwst FRT# 41792-1 Crosman 2260 FRT# 46765-1 Gamo p23 FRT# 4427-2 November 17, 2000 - Original list of 13 airguns the Canadian Firearm Registry has changed from non-firearms to firearms on RCMP's Firearms Reference Tables (FRT): Crosman 357 mag - Prohibited Firearm - FRT# 41822-1 (now prohibited because of barrel length) Webley Hurricane - Restricted Firearm - FRT# 43386-1 (muzzle velocity: 640fps) Webley Tempest - Restricted Firearm - FRT# 43382-1 (muzzle velocity: 560 fps) Beeman Model p1 - Restricted Firearm - FRT# 17122-2 (muzzle velocity: 580 fps) Crosman Model 1740 - Restricted Firearm - FRT# 89275-1 (muzzle velocity: 600fps) Crosman 1008 - Restricted Firearm - FRT# 41826-1 Crosman 1377c - Restricted Firearm - FRT# 90615-1 Crosman Model 1760 - Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 89255 (muzzle velocity: 750fps) Crosman Model 1077 - Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 41814-1 Crosman 760 - Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 41799-1 Crosman Powermaster - Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 72071-1 Diana Model 20 - Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 38510-1 Marksman Lazerhawk - Non-Restricted Firearm - FRT# 79371-4 ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #594 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:IParkinson@ccinet.ab.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v03.n198 end (198 is the digest issue number and 03 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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